Talk:Marianne Bachmeier/GA1

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 13:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Pix[edit]

Images are appropriately licensed and relevant

References[edit]

On this version:

nice that the titles are translated!
refs 3 and 20 are the same?

fixed

What makes 4 okay bliss a reliable source? I can't see the editor statement

what is the editor statement?

5 Driest, Burkhard, ed. (1984), Annas Mutter [Anna's Mother] (in German), MUBI, archived from the original on 6 October 2022, retrieved 2 February 2023 - this is not an acceptable link. i was unable to verify
9 what makes UNILAD a reliable source?
13 "Museen Nord: Pistole" [Unseen Nord: Gun]. UNSEEN NORD (in German). - this ref seems garbled, museen is museums
14 missing a colon in eng translation
Der Spiegel is linked in eg 2 but not in eg 15, it's good to be consistent one way or the other

fixed

Spotchecks[edit]

4a we say "Shortly before the birth of her second child, Bachmeier was raped" - sopurce says "Before the child’s birth, she was raped." - that's too close, needs changing

fixed

4b "Her second child was also placed for adoption as an infant." - "Bachmeier also gave up her second baby for adoption. " - that's ok

nothing to fix

4c & 5 "Bachmeier began dating Christian Berthold, the manager of Tipasa, a bar where they both worked, in 1972." - nothing in 4, possibly in the film linked in 5 but i am unable to verify. using a film as a source you would need to have it publicly accessible AND timestamp the information. it would be easier to find and cite the info elsewhere. if facts are notable they should mostly be available elsewhere as well
4d and 5 She became pregnant for the third time at the age of 22. same as 4c
4e and 5 "On 14 November 1972, Bachmeier's third child, Anna, was born, and she raised her alone" - same as 4c
4f "On 17 September 1996, Bachmeier died at the age of 46 from pancreatic cancer in a hospital in Lübeck" - " She returned to Germany after doctors diagnosed her with pancreatic cancer. Marianne Bachmeier died in September 1996 in Lubeck, Germany. " text/source integrity ok

nothing to fix

4g & 6m we say "She was buried beside her daughter " source says "She was buried alongside her daughter, Anna." - bit close ... anyway it's a copyvio with 6m see below

fixed

6a "As a result, Bachmeier took Anna to work at the pub, and she was said to never feel a need to rush home after her regular hours behind the bar" - not at all backed by source
6b "Friends later said that Bachmeier treated Anna like a little adult, and from a young age, she was expected to take care of many things on her own" - not at all backed by source
6c & 10 Anna frequently slept in the bar as her mother partied. According to a friend of Bachmeier's, Anna was a vibrant youngster, who never truly had a pleasant family life - not all in 6 or 10. how is this even possible?
6d "On 6 March 1981, the third day of the trial and around 10 a.m" text/source integrity ok

nothing to fix

6e & 17 "Bachmeier then lowered her gun, without any attempt to flee, and was arrested without resistance" - 6 says in translation "The 30-year-old can be arrested without resistance." so "arrested without resistance" can be changed to avoid close paraphrasing - but actually 17 says "She then lowered her gun, without any attempt to flee." so this is plagiarism and needs to be removed

fixed

6f "The incident is likely the most well-known case of vigilante justice in West Germany." - source says "Marianne Bachmeier's act of revenge is still perhaps the most spectacular case of vigilante justice in German post-war history." - so mostly ok, but prose concerns noted below

nothing to fix

6g & 20 "Many blame the judiciary for allowing a man who had molested two girls to use hormones to restore his sex drive." 6 says "Many blame the judiciary for the fact that it allowed a man who already abused two girls to restore his sex drive with hormones." - plagiarism

fixed

6h & 20 "Still, many openly express their sympathy for the act of revenge." - 6 says "Still others openly express their sympathy for the act of revenge." - plagiarism

fixed

6i we say "The court largely followed the defence's argument that the act was unplanned" - source says "the court follows on 2. March 1983 largely the defense's argument that the act was not planned." - plagiarisim

fixed

6j ok

nothing to fix

6k we say "They were divorced in 1990, and she moved to Sicily, where she worked as a euthanasia assistant in a hospice in Palermo" - source says "Bis 1990 lebt sie mit ihrem Mann in Nigeria. Nach der Scheidung zieht sie nach Sizilien und arbeitet in Palermo als Sterbehelferin in einem Hospiz." Until 1990 she lived with her husband in Nigeria. After the divorce she moved to Sicily and worked as death assistant in Palermo - so that's plagiarism and needs to be removed

fixed

6l we say "Marianne Bachmeier never publicly regretted her act of revenge" - source says in translation " Marianne Bachmeier never publicly regretted her revenge." that's plagiarism and needs to be removed

fixed

6m we say " She was buried beside her daughter, Anna, in a Burgtor Cemetery in Lübeck" - source says "Sie wird an der Seite ihrer Tochter Anna auf dem Lübecker Burgtorfriedhof beerdigt" - She was buried beside her daughter Anna in Burgtor Cemetery in Lubeck - so this is plagiarism and needs to be removed

fixed

18 we say "However, some still believed that a constitutional state must not tolerate vigilantism" source says (in translation) "And it has divided the public to this day: part of the population shows understanding for the mother's actions, while others are convinced that such an act of revenge should not be tolerated by a constitutional state." - that's too close. also use of however is discouraged per Wikipedia:HOWEVER. Actually there's another "However" in the next sentence as well!

fixed

23 is a youtube link and I don't think it's an official Norddeutscher Rundfunk account so it fails WP:YOUTUBE

the video has been removed from youtube anyway, but it had the channel logo on the video

26 student newspaper - but not being used for anything controversial, so it's ok

nothing to fix

Prose[edit]

DoB in lead and infobox but not (verified) in text
fixed
not fixed - the source you chose appears to use german wikipedia for its source info. also you missed out the word "born"
re-fixed
"Bachmeier began dating Christian Berthold," per WP:BLPNAME, we don't need to know his name
fixed
"The incident is likely the most well-known case of vigilante justice in West Germany." - "likely" is not encyclopedic .. better to follow the sources and report what they say
fixed to "one of"
lead is actually good, could be expanded a bit but that would come last, after everything else.
it's good you include note2 because i also noticed about Nigeria, but then it's better to expand and say something like: "Norddeutscher Rundfunk says she went to Nigeria" - also okay bliss says this but as mentioned above I'm not sure if that's a quality source
verbatim fixed
there would prob be more prose issues, i'm stopping here since there are so many issues with spotchecks Mujinga (talk) 10:45, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Other criteria[edit]

Please check MOS:DASH compliance - User:Ohconfucius/dashes.js is a handy plugin for that
Article is stable
The article fails on broadness, since as i got through the sources I notice things that should be mentioned, such as (these are examples, there are probably others as well which would be found when checking other sources):
- she had practised shooting in a few sources eg ndr

already mentioned "In an ARD documentary from 2006, a former friend also said that Marianne Bachmeier practised shooting in the basement under her pub after Anna's murder

- ndr says 250,000 for stern not 100,000"
- unilad - i'm a bit sceptical about the quality of this source, but if you were going to use it surely the news about the clip resurfacing years later is worth mentioning

that is a reenactment, see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnaOvWeiBQw&ab_channel=MimMehmetKaraman

- what she said after the shooting is repeated in multiple sources and worth mentioning

I watched couple of her interviews and she did not mentioned that. I will do more dig in. In general, I dont agree with "The article fails on broadness" as I was actually criticised for being too broad, see last comment

Overview[edit]

Hi FuzzyMagma, let's try again with this one. Mujinga (talk) 13:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mujinga I wish I can say no but I appreciate the review process regardless. Please be a little patient if you see there is a chance to improve the work as I’m keen to learn m and it’s a bit frustrating to see months work disregard with a quick fail. Nothing against your decision but it’s the feeling being near but not there yet without a clear route to improve FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:00, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a clear route to improve, I would suggest checking all your other open GA noms for any copyright violations. I would also suggest reviewing some open nominations so as to better understand the process.

Can I check what you mean by this " I wish I can say no but I appreciate the review process regardless"? If you don't want me to review this article, that's fine I'm happy to stop here. Mujinga (talk) 14:30, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mujinga The “no” is for moving to this article when I would have hoped you will stay longer on the previous article. Anyway, I’m happy for you to review this article and any article. You seem to know what you’re talking about and I trust your call.

I will check other nominated articles to avoid a quick fail.

I am planning to review an article soon but still reading WP:MOS

Anyway, continue with your review and sorry for my previous gaffe when I called your previous quick fail as “bit trigger happy” FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK thanks for saying that, then I'll carry on. Mujinga (talk) 08:42, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
By the way feel free to reply on stuff like you did here, only please put it on another line so the conversation is easier to follow. Mujinga (talk) 08:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear, I'm going to have to quickfail this one as well, explanation coming Mujinga (talk) 10:41, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I'm going to quickfail this one as well FuzzyMagma. I know that's disappointing, but it can also be something to learn from and I have given a lot of comments, which could help you work on the article and resubmit. Before doing so I would advise checking all sources for copyviolation. I wouldn't want to review the article again, it's better for other eyes to look at it, although I would be happy to give feedback on a future version and I do wish you the best of luck with it. If it helps, my first GA nom failed as well.

The quickfail is based on grounds 1 and 2. The article has copyvio and is far from being broad, verifiable and well-written. How to proceed? I would either comb through every reference to check for copyvio OR start again with good sources. I've done both methods. It's probably better to start again and write from scratch. Please remove the plagiarism or I will. I notice you just removed a discussion about copyvio from your talkpage, so this is unfortunately an issue that you cannot pretend to be unaware of. Mujinga (talk) 10:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mujinga I removed because it was resolved. It’s still on that page talk. So please tune it down with accusations

i just a quick copyvio check with Earwig and did not find anything. I’m assuming you are talking about the translation which tbh did not know covered by copyright as it’s actually translated. Anyway, as you recommended, I will go and comb through it. Thank for the reviews FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:46, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes if you translate text and use that version, it's still a copyright violation. Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]