Talk:Marvel Cinematic Universe: Phase Six/Archive 1

Archive 1

"Production of Avengers: The Kang Dynasty and Avengers: Secret Wars" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Production of Avengers: The Kang Dynasty and Avengers: Secret Wars and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 27#Production of Avengers: The Kang Dynasty and Avengers: Secret Wars until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Indagate (talk) 09:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Mainspace

Given Phase Six has already been officially announced (unlike Phase Five, which did not become official until yesterday), should we go ahead and move this page to the mainspace? Or is it still WP:TOOSOON? InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:56, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

If you want, given FF is in development and more will be announced at D23. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 21:35, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm fine with it being moved since it's officially announced like you mentioned. -- Zoo (talk) 21:38, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm also in favor of moving this to mainspace. If we waited on Phase 5 until it was officially announced, then we can go ahead and move this one as well since it was announced at the same time. It will also encourage more participation once D23 comes around. TNstingray (talk) 22:39, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93 and Adamstom.97: What do you think? InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:55, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

@InfiniteNexus: I've been away, and am (slowly) going up my watchlist and seeing edits, but my feeling was yeah, this should be in mainspace since it was officially announced. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:59, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

 Moved. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:09, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with the existence of this article. None of the films have a director or screenwriter, are in no form of production currently, and the phase being "officially announced" does not warrant an article. The three films listed have all been officially announced, and yet don't have their separate articles, solely due to WP:NFF. Why is this article any different? -- Alex_21 _TALK 23:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Didn't we apply to these Phase articles the same rules we applied to films? If I recall correctly, we didn't move the Phase Four article to mainspace until at least one of the projects started filming. —El Millo (talk) 23:56, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Precisely. This article is solely about one film in development, and two that have just been announced. -- Alex_21 _TALK 23:59, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Then yes, this should be moved back to draftspace. —El Millo (talk) 00:07, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The films themselves might not have their own articles per WP:NFF, but to me that further strengthens the case for this article being in mainspace, as it compiles all of that information about the FF movie and Avengers 5-6. And this will only continue to grow from here on out as more information becomes available (like at D23), so I see absolutely no harm in releasing this to mainspace alongside the Phase Five page. TNstingray (talk) 01:06, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't strengthen anything, as nothing in Phase Six is in active production, and this article submits to WP:NFF just as much as any other film article. Yes, more information may become available at D23, but given that there it WP:NORUSH to create an article, I absolutely agree with the very first question in this thread, in that it is WP:TOOSOON. "All" of this information (two films of which literally only have two sentences of content each) can easily be included in another article while this is expanded as a draft. -- Alex_21 _TALK 02:20, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

This isn't a traditional film article though. I was under the impression that WP:NFF applied to individual films, which is not what this page is about (and hence the reason there are not yet mainstream articles for FF and Avengers 5-6). I would say this is a notable exception per the rest of he guidelines on WP:NFILM, and it also encourages more user participation to go ahead and have it published. TNstingray (talk) 13:04, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

If NFF applies to a film that is not yet in production, why would it then not apply to an article concerning a multitude of films that are not yet in production? -- Alex_21 _TALK 13:12, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Because of the multitude of films in production. It's a catch-all. As a concept, the planned films combined are notable enough to warrant this massive announcement by Kevin Feige at SDCC that has since had massive coverage. NFF rightly refers to the individual films, but this page concerns the Marvel Cinematic Universe continuing as a concept: films are just one aspect of it. TNstingray (talk) 13:36, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't think we should follow WP:NFF for this article, as the topic would far exceed WP:GNG by that point. I still believe right now the topic meets WP:GNG. However, I can still see an argument that it is too soon given we don't have more than 3 projects. If it moved back to the draftspace, I'd say it could come out when it has progress production info (ie castings or directors) for at least one of the projects. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:02, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

"Massive" announcements aren't a Wikipedia guideline. It is not ongoing "massive coverage", that's simply textbook WP:RECENTISM. Say a production company came out and announced a five-movie franchise. That isn't notable enough for its own franchise article yet, because none of the movies exist, it's not a franchise. Exactly the same situation for Phase Six. This content can easily be located elsewhere, especially given the fact that there is no information in this article about the phase, only the movies in development. A "catch all" is not a notable enough reason for an article's existance.

However, yes, as soon as one of the movies moves into production, then it should definitely be a live article. If there's not a consensus to draftify the article for now (until at least September's D23, depending on the announcements there), then I'm happy to gain a consensus through AfD, if that's the recommended path. -- Alex_21 _TALK 02:08, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

We had a director announcement already today for The Kang Dynasty, so I still feel GNG is met right now, but think at the very least, this should be reevaluated after September's D23. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:11, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:NFF doesn't apply here, this is not an individual film. If we treat Phases as separate series, this meets MOS:FILMSERIES as it includes three films, as well as WP:GNG due to its significant coverage. Not to mention that D23 and Disney+ Day are both just around the corner. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Except this article includes the idea of three films; it includes zero films that are in any form of production. So, unfortunately, this article doesn't actually include any films yet. D23 and Disney+ Day are not yet here, so we don't base our content and articles on future events, per WP:CRYSTAL. -- Alex_21 _TALK 02:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

This page does not currently violate anything under WP:CRYSTAL. TNstingray (talk) 14:28, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The arguments for keeping this page are based on the future occurrences of Disney Day and D23, that makes it a CRYSTAL issue. -- Alex_21 _TALK 04:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

You still have not addressed why WP:GNG should be ignored here. And to note, there is clearly strong consensus among MCU editors to keep this page, so I think you should just drop this at this point. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:17, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

"Draft:Production of Avengers: The Kang Dynasty and Avengers: Secret Wars" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Draft:Production of Avengers: The Kang Dynasty and Avengers: Secret Wars and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 4#Draft:Production of Avengers: The Kang Dynasty and Avengers: Secret Wars until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Trailblazer101 (talk) 01:51, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Deadpool 3

Deadpool 3 was just announced to be coming out Sept 6, 2024. Does it belong on this page, or Phase 5? Utopiayouser (talk) 21:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Nothing's been confirmed yet, but Deadpool 3 will likely kick off Phase 6 now. — SirDot (talk) 21:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

@SirDot: The MCU Phase Six slate, which was officially shown off at Comic Con in July, showed that the first project of Phase Six was an empty slot set for Fall 2024, which is when Deadpool 3 releases. This enough is confirmation that the film kicks off Phase Six. https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/e/e9/Phase_Six_Original_Slate.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20220726225316 - K-popguardian (talk) 21:27, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

@K-popguardian: A "[Season] 2024/5" means it's for a Disney+ series, see the 2025 slots and the only ones filled out exactly are FF and the Avengers films. — SirDot (talk) 21:30, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Without a reliable source or an official announcement, it would be WP:OR to try to place Deadpool 3 in a Phase. Also a reminder that its release date was only recently moved from February 2024, which would have been decidedly Phase Five, so the SDCC graphic is irrelevant. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:22, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

This article says that it is Phase 6, but I'm not sure if that counts as a reliable source, since they may just be assuming that based on what information we have already been given (namely that The Thunderbolts is the end of Phase 5): https://www.ign.com/articles/burning-questions-wolverine-deadpool-3-mcu-marvel.

I've seen other sites such as Nerdist state this is Phase Six based on the release date, although that is not confirmed in Marvel's article and is most likely an assumption on their parts, and not something verified, so we should wait until we get an official statement on this. Trailblazer101 (talk) 05:10, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Remember WP:OR and WP:SYNTH apply to editors, not to reliable sources. We don't need confirmation from Marvel, if many reliable sources assume it to be Phase Six based on known info such as a release date and a previous film being confirmed to be the end of Phase Five, we can in fact use it. —El Millo (talk) 05:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

My main rationale for us not going off of these sources assuming the date automatically makes it Phase Six is because THR, Deadline, and Variety did not make such an assumption. There is clear ambiguity here, and even some of these reliable sources can be wrong in their assumptions. Trailblazer101 (talk) 05:16, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

This is what I've found when searching "Deadpool 3 Phase 6" on Google and looking under its "News" tab relegated to the past 24 hours: IGN, Screen Rant, CinemaBlend, Nerdist Tweet. Not much for "Deadpool 3 Phase 5" results, though Twitter (from unverified users) seem to be split or confused like ourselves as to where the film actually falls. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

If there are more sources that say Phase Six, then I guess we can go with that. Though this tweet is really irking me. InfiniteNexus (talk) 15:25, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I suppose we could go ahead and state it as the start of Phase Six, though, to counter some points I’ve seen, either Thunderbolts ending Phase Five or Fantastic Four starting Phase Six are now incorrect. Most sources, while assuming it is Six, seem to be in the majority here, and if others agree on implementing this, we can go with one of the sources above. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:05, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I feel more comfortable at this moment saying Deadpool 3 is one of those "Fall 2024" slots on the Phase Six image (which was assumed to be a D+ series), rather than it suddenly becoming an epilogue-like project to Phase Five. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:33, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Also for what it's worth, I pulled up a recording of the SDCC panel, and Feige didn't actually say FF was the first film of the Phase, only that it was finally coming. So I feel confident for the time being if we say Deadpool 3 is Phase Six and that first "Fall 2024" marker on that timeline graphic. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:17, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Ah, that checks out. In that case, I think we can adjust as needed. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:39, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Forgot to mention here from last night editing, but I went ahead and update the info to list DP3 as the first film of Phase Six using the IGN source, which read the most confidently. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:13, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

So you guys are just randomly guessing where to include it as opposed to using a reliable source that says so? Got it. The IGN source is not reliable or official, its just some guy making a guess. It could be phase 5, it could be phase 6, it could be something outside the phases... how bout waiting till there is confirmation? Spanneraol (talk) 02:34, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

We're not just basing off IGN, a majority of reliable sources (including IGN) believe it's Phase Six, so it's acceptable for us to say so too per WP:VNT. InfiniteNexus (talk) 02:40, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Variety's piece on the release delays today stated Marvel Studios President Kevin Feige announced at San Diego Comic-Con in July that “Fantastic Four” would kick off Phase Six, which would make “Blade” and “Deadpool 3” the final two films in Phase Five. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:22, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

As I said above, watching video footage from the SDCC panel, Feige actually never said FF would start Phase Six, only that it was part of it and one of the first things they were announcing. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:29, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

When Deadpool 3 got moved from Feb 2024 to Sep 2024, some articles just assumed it will start Phase 6 and we just went with that. A part of the justification was that Feige said Phase 5 will culminate with The Thunderbolts. But now, with Blade having made a similar move from the middle of Phase 5 to the same date, this gets even more messy to know for sure where 5 ends and 6 begins.... and it might just be better to not count Blade or Deadpool as either parts of Phase 6.

I get that secondary sources made the assumptions but it's also an obvious editorializing. And even though its verifiable and doesn't have to be true, we shouldn't be stating it as facts. We could include it in the commentaries instead... until Marvel Studios officially puts them in their right phases. — Starforce¹³ 20:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Variety is a way more reputable source than ScreenRant, CinemaBlend, or even IGN.... and even though they're also making an assumption.... it's clear that sources can't agree on which phase this belongs. Note that IGN which was also used in the previous discussion is also now saying that Phase 6 will begin in 2025 (which would mean DP3 in Phase 5). This is just another reason for us to remove any Phase information until Marvel says otherwise. — Starforce¹³ 20:47, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

One can also look at it as Blade is just moving from the middle to the end of Phase 5 now. I think we keep all Phase indications as they are (ie from SDCC, plus DP3 in Phase Six) until more information is revealed. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The same logic applies to Deadpool 3 too. It was also moved from the middle of Phase 5 (Feb 2024) to Sep 2024. Disney announced the date move and then a day or 2 later, Ryan Reynolds posted the video which confirmed the re-scheduled movie to have been Deadpool 3. ref— Starforce¹³ 20:53, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

We never formally knew DP3 to be on that Feb 2024 date before it move. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:31, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

@KingArti: I would hold off on moving DP3 to Phase 5. TheWrap’s analysis seems to be WP:SYNTH since, as stated above, it has never been officially clarified by Feige or Marvel Studios that DP3 is Phase 5 or 6, as it seems more of wishful thinking. We left it in Phase 6 since we structured Phase 5 around what was revealed for that phase back at SDCC, prior to DP3’s release being announced, and given that the original release date (before stuff got moved because of Blade) fell after the last film on Phase 5’s revealed slate (which was Thunderbolts), it was easier to say that it was most likely Phase 6. I do hope that Feige will clarify this soon, but if he doesn’t I would just wait until SDCC this year where he will likely give the updated slate with the rest of Phase 6 hopefully. --MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 20:51, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Thunderbolts and Blade

This two movies were moved to Phase Six, but there are sources for this? Maybe Fantastic Four is part of Phase Five now--79.50.113.179 (talk) 10:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Honestly the whole Phase delineation moving forward is a bit tricky to pin down with all the adjustments. What was stated at Comic Con 2021 as to what started and ended phases might not apply anymore. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:09, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I am not certain we should be making any definitive calls on the phase placements, as either would be assumptions. We do know the July and November 2025 dates were originally for Phase 6, though as Favre noted, those may no longer apply. Marvel's article on the new dates gave no indication as to where they fall in the phases. The current transfer of the content in the articles seems justified, though may have been jumping the gun, as I wouldn't be surprised if the phase layouts were to change. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:14, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't actually know how we should go about this. I agree in part with the moves, but we don't actually know what the new phase breakdown is. I feel we should include some sort of note, be it in article or as edit notices, that we're basing projects placement in each phase based on the 2021 San Diego Comic Con graphics. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:24, 10 November 2023 (UTC)