Talk:Middleton, Greater Manchester/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Current Edit

I have tried to structure the article into a better format to try to encourage further development as I think the current article still needs a lot of work to bring it up to scratch. It also needs more historical facts, mentioning people such as writer Samuel Bamford, verification and could do with some nice photos to liven things up a bit. -- Legoman 12:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Notable residents

Does anyone else think that the Notable residents section is absurd? Just a list of names, no explanation of what it is that links them to Midleton, if anything. --Malleus Fatuarum 00:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely right. I'm working on the article now, so I'll see if I can improve this someway, somehow. -- Jza84 · (talk) 17:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Crompton House

I've been lead to believe that there is a high proportion of students at Crompton House school from Middleton because Middleton, which has a significant population from the Anglican community, does not have its own Church of England high school.

I've made a cursory search on the net for something about this, but haven't found anything (though have found info about the bus services from Middleton to the school. If someone can, please feel free to add something about this. -- Jza84 · (talk) 19:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I have a few friends and neighbours who attended Crompton House who were from Alkrington (Middleton), so there is some truth in this. However without asking them for an estimate I cannot say how high the proportion is. --Attenboroughp (talk) 01:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Moonrakers

I was interested in the legend of the moonrakers in the article as I recently saw something on the BBC's Countryfile about a town in Yorkshire where they have an annual festival based on the same story. A google search on "moonraker legend comes up with a lot of references to the Wiltshire moonrakers. One from the BBC is here as the reference given in the article is from a notoriously unreliable website I'm beginning to wonder - are people from Middleton really called moonrakers? Richerman (talk) 00:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The source provided (Manchester-2002.com) has been identified before as an unrealiable source as you say. I've yet to find any other decent source for this claim, though some local forums indicate that it is quite a common nickname. -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually a further search for "Middleton moonraker" comes up with a couple of references to the term from the Middleton Guardian ie this and this but it's odd how the same story pops up all over the country. Also see Moonrakers Richerman (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I've also found a reference for the Yorkshire one now, it's in Slaithwaite - see here. Curiouser and curiouser! Looks like the Moonrakers article needs an update when I get time. Richerman (talk) 01:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I too saw the BBC Countryfile program and have started to wonder just how widespread the whole moonraker legend is. Is it simply coincidence that the Yorkshire town and Middleton have very similar legends? I don't know but I find it all quite interesting!
As far as Middletonians being called Moonrakers, I can assure everyone that this is true, so please don’t remove it from the article. (I know simply from first hand experience, because I live in Middleton).
The usage of the term seems to be more popular with older residents. I just asked my Grandma and she told me that our next door neighbour knows quite a lot about the whole moonraker thing, so I’ll try and have a chat with her.Attenboroughp (talk) 01:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Luddite Riots

"Warwick Mill is a monument to be seen from all around Middleton and was a venue for a workers Luddite revolt"  ??? warwick mill was built about 90? years after the luddite riots which happened at Burton's Mill on wood street Middletonian (talk) 10:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Samuel Bamford

It says on his Wikipedia page that he was born in Moston. However, he even writes in his own book that he was born in Middleton[1], which doesn't even give a mention to Moston.

Furthermore, the second reference on his Wikipedia entry states that he was born in Middleton [2] and again, doesn't even mention Moston.

Please can someone else give their thoughts/opinions on the matter? Do we have a case for claiming he was born in Middleton?Attenboroughp (talk) 15:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I've just checked the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, which also says that Bamford was born in Middleton. That's pretty conclusive as far as I'm concerned. I'll change Bamford's article to reflect that. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Middleton Tattoo Studio

Apparently, Middleton is home to one of the most famous tattoo studios in the UK. [3] The tattoo artist, Louis Molloy, was the one who drew David Beckhams iconic angel tattoo on his back.[4]

Perhaps it is worth a mention? I can also take a photo of the studio if people think it will benefit the article. Attenboroughp (talk) 14:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd say yes, but with the proviso that you can find another source independent of the tattoo shop itself to back up that claim. Have they won any national awards, for instance? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 15:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It says on his own website that he's won some big awards. "...outstanding artist of the year UK in 1986 and 1993"[5]
He also stars in a reality TV show, London Ink[6]. It says on the London Ink website that he's won many awards, but doesn't give any specific details.[7] Admittedly I am struggling to find independent online sources which state that he has won the aforementioned awards.
There's lots of independent sources on the internet saying he is regarded as one of the best tattooists in the UK. A quick search gives:
BBC: "Louis is one of the most prominent tattoo artists in the North West"[8]
"...Louis Malloy, who is one of the most highly regarded tattoo artist in the UK..."[9]
"...Louis Malloy (Probably Britains foremost tattooist..."[10]
Yahoo answers[11]
There's also lots to be found vouching that his clients include David Beckham amoungst other famous people.[12] [13] Attenboroughp (talk) 22:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
A BBC source is good enough for me. Go on, be bold, stick it in. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It's a thumbs up from me too. Not sure where this material would be best placed, but I'm thinking under Economy. Well researched Attenboroughp. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  23:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

British Isles

Any objection to restoring the status quo? --Jza84 |  Talk  15:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by the status quo? Crispness (talk) 15:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
"Status quo ante" --Jza84 |  Talk  18:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Before when? And why? Crispness (talk) 21:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Before it was changed, arbitarily, as part of a widespread removal of the term from several articles. It would restore a version that has common practice throughout simillar articles, and is a fair and accurate claim. --Jza84 |  Talk  21:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The British Isles are the islands which make up the UK so when talking in terms of climate it applies to the land (British Isles), not the monarchy/parliament system (the UK). So it should say British Isles as should every other article. ┌Joshii┐└chat┘ 21:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Yep. So, any objections? --Jza84 |  Talk  21:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I would challenge you to produce any evidence that the change was made arbitrarily. The incorrect use of the term is widespread in WP and any time I come across its incorrect usage, I fix it. This is one such instance. That this incorrect usage can be found in other articles is no reason for keeping it here. I don't understand why, when talking about climate, we should use the term for the island group, rather than the geographical region (northwestern seaboard of Europe), the island itself (Great Britain), or the country (UK). The maritime climate referred to is not specific to the British Isles. It occurs on the western continental seaboards between 45 and 55 degrees north. So that means that Northallerton shares a climate with most of western France, Belgium, Holland and Ireland, as well as the rest of the UK. So why reference the British Isles? It is unencyclopaedic, implying that there is an encyclopaedic quality to the comparison. There is none. It is non-notable. So why include it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crispness (talk • contribs) 06:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
All personal stuff above I'm afraid. The Köppen climate classification identifies the British Isles (as a whole) as "Cfb", whilst other system's and reputable sources ([14], [15]), [16]) - including the Met Office) identify the region (as a whole) as sharing an oceanic climate and other exacting climatological traits; these sources do not split according to political boundaries, i.e. the UK and the Republic of Ireland, and I would have to insist we (here) reflect real world practice over personal preference. This is also an approach which already has widespread use throughout Wikipedia - it's arbitary to select Middleton to "correct". In this capacity, it should be included, and restored. --Jza84 |  Talk  10:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

<outdent>I'm afraid Köppen doesn't single out BI as its own uniquely identifiable climate. The Maritime or oceanic climate is experienced in a much wider area of NW Europe (See Map). The fact that some people have published articles on the climate of the BI is only indicative of the fact that the island group shares a common climate, and not that there is some notable uniqueness about that climate in relation to the BI.

There are 2 possible encyclopaedic reasons for including a climate comparison phrase in the article.

  1. To identify the contiguous geographical area within which Middleton sits and shares a climate, or
  2. To make some socio-economic-cultural point, e.g. it always rains in Manchester, etc

We could say any of the following

and be equally accurate. But which is the most encyclopaedic? Why do you believe that the BI reference is the best and most encyclopaedic reference? For me, it adds nothing to the sum of human knowledge (or to WP) to say that the climate in Middleton is the same as the rest of the BI? Are you suggesting that every city, town and village in the UK should have a similar reference? Surely it would only be notable to add a climatic reference where the local climate was significantly different from the prevailing climate, rather than vice-versa. Wouldn't you agree? Crispness (talk) 07:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't always rain in Manchester, an ignorant misconception. ┌Joshii┐└chat┘ 22:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Whilst you are entitled to suggest that such a stand might be ignorant, or may even be a misconception, I would rather you didn't edit my talk contributions. The point I was making is that someone might well use such an argument, even if it was a fallacy, ignorant or otherwise. It is widely used in the media, often light heartedly. Thanks Crispness (talk) 10:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm missing something Crispness - what is your objection to British Isles? I'm concerned you simply want to remove reference to it, at any cost. --Jza84 |  Talk  10:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
It is unencyclopaedic. Crispness (talk) 11:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Why? The sources given above prove it has frequent, official and scholarly use in climatology ([17], [18]). I've supplied my references, and WP:V trumps personal preference. --Jza84 |  Talk  11:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The sources cited only prove that term British Isles is used in climatology. I don't dispute that. It's often used badly. Sometimes its used well. But none of those citations provide a definitive reference for its use in the Middleton article. I am not disputing that, when it comes to the climate of Middleton, it is similar to the climate in the British Isles. What I am disputing is that making that point in the article, adds nothing to the encyclopaedic nature and quality of the article. What does the reader gain or learn from reading that phrase? What is the point of the phrase? What is it adding to the readers knowledge? Why would the reader want to know that little nugget of info?
Nothing, nothing, nothing, IMHO. In fact that phrase is suggesting one of 2 things to me: either a) that the climate of the BI is unique (which Koppen disproves), or b) its very wet in Greater Manchester, like much of the UK and Ireland. Which is it? Crispness (talk) 05:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
We're going round in circles here. However, I note that it is me who has supplied citation, and you who have just brought personal preference. I'm afraid WP:V trumps the debate. Certainly your point about "encyclopeadicness" is redundant. I think the crux of the matter here is you're one of these folks who doesn't like the term "British Isles"; a cursory glance through your contributions and talk page proves this is the case. In this capacity, I must insist that you take your debate to the main page and not remove the claim from here as part of a wider crusade. --Jza84 |  Talk  13:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
We are only going around in circles because you refuse to address the point in question. You can make ad hominem attacks as much as you want and ignore the requirement for encyclopaedic integrity, but it doesn't change the fact that the references prove nothing about the climate of Middleton which is the article we're discussing. The only things the cited references prove is that some people sometimes refer to the British Isles as having a climate. So what? Why include such a reference in the article about Middleton.
And if you cared to review my edits you would note that actually I only make BI related edits when the term is used improperly, as is the case here. There are plenty of proper usages in WP which can and should stay. Its about fixing the wrong ones, thereby making WP a better resource. WP:N trumps WP:VCrispness (talk) 17:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Not true. For example, you removed British Isles here [19] for no good reason. Check the Airfix website and you'll see that BI is correct. There are no ad hominem attacks here, merely a commentary on your edits. I support the inclusion of the term British Isles in this article. Its use is factually correct. CarterBar (talk) 21:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Whilst I have pointed out above that it may well be factually correct, that doesn't make it encyclopaedic. The current version is also factually correct. It would be factually correct to change it to say "like the rest of Greater Manchester". Factual correctness is not a reason for inclusion. Can anyone, anyone please suggest a reason why BI is in any sense better than any of the other suggested alternatives? Carter, why not provide a link to the page of the Airfix website which proves me wrong? Probably because it doesn't exist! Crispness (talk) 08:16, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Here's what I had in mind when we debated this some time ago - [20]. The link shows that Airfix produced British WWI figures, and at the time of WWI Ireland was part of the United Kingdom. CarterBar (talk) 10:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

<outdent>ROFL! I made this edit to the Airfix page. It removed mention of BI from the bullet point describing the 1:12 series of historical figures. I did so because there is no evidence out there that the 1:12 series included any Irish figures. I know that because I did a lot of careful research before removing the claim. There does not seem to be a complete list of the figures included in the 1:12 series anywhere. Any of the lists I have found only include British figures. The reference you provided was for 00-Scale models, a completely different series which were not covered by my edit. And if you had a problem with that edit, you could always have raised it on the Airfix talk page which you didn't. Instead you made a knee jerk reaction to revert without doing any research to see if I was right or wrong. If you can find a list of the 1:12 series historical figures anywhere authoritative and it includes any Irish personalities, I'll replace the reference myself. All you need to do is provide the reference. You do make me laugh! Crispness (talk) 22:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Response on your Talk page. CarterBar (talk) 17:06, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Crispness, you're in a minority here, and have not secured a consensus for the change you seek. There's a 4:1 objection, i.e. Myself, Joshii, CarterBar and Attenboroughp have all objected to your change. Please stop your distruptive revisions - they simply will not last on the page. --Jza84 |  Talk  11:17, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
But none of the 4 of you have been willing or able to make any reference as to why BI is notable in this context. You are comparing the climate of Middleton to the rest of the British Isles. Why? What is the point? What is the benefit to the user of knowing that nugget of useless info? That's all I'm asking for. I think its a very small and simple request. I don't believe I'm be disruptive by asking for it. And as you know WP is not a democracy. Just because 4 editors want to do something the wrong way doesn't make it right. Crispness (talk) 15:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree. It would be notable to refer to the climate in the British Isles if this region was somehow different. But it's not - it's merely asserting that the climate is much like everywhere else in the British Isles. I'm puzzled by this assertion. The point made earlier by Crispness is valid - why assert a fact that is non-notable in this way, and if the article needs some sort of assertion, why not assert that the climate is normal with the largest region, or the smallest island? --Bardcom (talk) 12:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
But of course you would agree. You're an anti-British Islander.... :) anyway, I'm working on a source, and should have something in the next 24 hours. --Jza84 |  Talk  12:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
For the record, I'm not anti-British anything... --Bardcom (talk) 23:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
That's good to hear. But there is clear evidence that you (like Crispness) seek (or rather have seeked) to remove mentions of the British Isles systematically, throughout Wikipedia. I think that speaks for itself regarding motivations here. --Jza84 |  Talk  23:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

History Section- unloved and uncared for.

This section is shot, and needs to be rewritten from scratch. The sources material is easy to find. Passing through.--ClemRutter (talk) 12:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The first para is especially dubious, and I'd politely suggest the source is not a recognised expert in the field. It's such a generic name, and there's no real reason to think it came from the first wave of Saxon settlement. Indeed, as it had to be founded in the "middle" of other settlements, it probably wasn't!

Previous Edits

NPOV statement

It is the British equivalent of an American white trash trailer park and comes complete with the small town mentality of born here, die here and don't travel very far in the interim. -- jiy 03:30, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Bitter words. Amazingly most people in this town would even stoop to lending a helping hand to such a small minded individual as the person who wrote the above. Let's not generalise, I am suprised that such comments as the above are even allowed. 

I agree with above. Lived for many years in neighbouring Prestwich. There is nothing wrong with Middleton!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.182.48 (talk) 18:06, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Wythenshawe or Langley?

Wythenshawe is the biggest council estate, I believe that Langley is the second largest, however I've left it out of the article as I can't prove it. Langley is wholly contained within Middleton, it doesn't "share a border" as the article previously stated. -- 194.69.203.105 12:15, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I think you will find that Wythenshawe is significantly bigger, and dates from an earlier period (before WWII). It was established as a garden city in a part of Cheshire which was incorporated into the city of Manchester for the purpose. The population was relocated from slums in south-central Manchester to Wyhtenshawe. Langley was established as an overspill estate to accommodate the post-war slum clearance of Collyhurst and Harpurhey. Many of the houses were built to standard designs and are more or less identical to Wythenshawe. Of course, since the 1980's many homes in both Wythenshawe and Langley have been privatised. Others demolished or substantially refurbished in the early years of this century. 77.109.40.184 (talk) 15:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Larmett

De La Salle

Something about De La Salle College of Higher Education which was a (the most??) prominent feature of this town would be good. When did it close? I know it had its own Gaelic Football team and a strong Irish presence. It trained a large percentage of Manchester's Catholic teachers at one time. -- Dfcarolan 22:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC) The government withdrew approval for its courses in 1986, which meant that its final students graduated from Manchester University in 1989. It had ceased to provide initial teacher training some years before, so its raison d'etre had disappeared and the De La Salle brothers had lost interest. Rochdale council later bought the site to use as a further education college, which still exists as Hopwood Hall College. The Friends Reunited site has some photos from the old college. Hopwood Hall itself is on the English Heritage Buildings at Risk Register although its condition is described as 'fair'.86.15.133.222 01:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Random Interloper

JW Lees

Make bitter, not lager, as far as I know, as a local (Rochdale anyway). I've never seen a JW lager. It's pretty nasty stuff too!

Lees, ironically the name for the components of the brewing process that are discarded, make a fine bitter. They also make a lager "Golden Original", a dark mild and a variety of seasonal ales. at £1.75 a pint (2007) it is well priced and also disturbingly potent.

Workhouse

Hello,

does anybody know something about the "workhouse" in Middleton? Friedrich Engels wrote about the workhouse in Middleton, Lancashire.

Greetings from Berlin __Topi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.189.221.41 (talk) 10:05, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Queen Elizabeth Grammar School

I've just read through the whole Wikipedia section on Middleton and it surprises me that no reference is made to Middleton Grammar School, which was known as Q.E.G.S. when I attended in the 1960's and 1970's. If I remember correctly, the school was established by royal assent in the rein of Queen Elizabeth I, by the Nowell family; the old schoolhouse still exists on Boarshaw Road, down the hill from the parish church, by the River Irk. It became a comprehensive in the 1970's (Q.E.H.S) and was located at that time on Boardman Fold Road in Alkrington. There were school buses (Manchester double-deckers) from every part of town (Langley, Hollins) to this non-central location.

Which brings us to other useful links: there could be a cross-reference to the article on the River Irk in the geography section.

And in the names of prominent local families, Cardinal Langley, the Nowells and the Asshetons all had connections with Middleton. They were the names of the "houses" at the grammar school. The fourth house was "Queens". This is surely a part of Middleton's heritage which has been missed.

Just suggestions for further additions.

77.109.40.184 (talk) 15:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Philip Larmett

http://www.middletonia.co.uk/peopleandplaces/oldgrammarschool.html Citeable reference or not? --82.9.179.186 (talk) 12:40, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

JW Lees pub locations

"JW Lees houses its brewery at Middleton Junction. The brewery owns several pubs in the Greater Manchester area." As far as im aware, J.W. Lees pubs are not confined to Greater manchester, having come across one in wales. I have no idea where abouts now as it was years back, but if anyone can name one or two this could be changed. --MattMPh (talk) 13:46, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

According to the CAMRA website, the company has 173 pubs in North West England and North Wales, so definitely not confined to Greater Manchester. While the statement currently in the article may not be incorrect, it conveys the impression of a much smaller company than one with over 170 pubs. Nev1 (talk) 13:59, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
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