Talk:Military ranks of the Soviet Union
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Military ranks of the Soviet Union article.|
Encyclopedist, you forgut to add Chief Marshal of aviation to the table. Also there was no such rank o General of aviation, only Marshal of aviation, which was equal to General of the Army. And again there were no such ranks as Podpraporschik and Bootsman, Lyotchik translates from russian as pilot which can't be a rank of private. --DimaY2K 21:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- You are better at this than I am! Most of this was from Russian military ranks page, though. εγκυκλοπαίδεια* 21:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
User:DimaY2K is wrong. Podpraporschik and Bootsman were introduced in 1977 and continue to be used in the modern Russian army! Lyotchik translates from russian as airman, aviator, flier, flyer. It is rare as the pilot (in value - operating of the flying device) and not equivalent to NATO Pilot! Also a word the Lyotchik and Pilot in Russian means all people concerning to aviation, aircraft and to air forces. Also a word the soldier in Russian means all people concerning to Army. And a word the seaman, sailor in Russian means all people concerning to Naval forces. All of this words summarizing this people, their concerning and not important what their rank! For your data-Chief Marshal of the Air Force and other Marshal have gone out of use only in 1990 -1991. It is necessary write and pronounce авиа́ции, not а́виации. Generalissimo of the Soviet Union, which was a rank used by Joseph Stalin after June 27, 1945, not after 1943. Yours faithfully-Tt1 15:04, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
- I don't believe you. I personally know it was 1943, not 1945 - I think you need to do some external research before you keep editing to Wikipedia. εγκυκλοπαίδεια* 21:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
It is not necessary to me that you don't believe me. DimaY2K - he is not the professor and not the military academician. I want that here wrote the exact information, instead of erroneous. You badly know Russian and do many mistakes. Therefore it is not necessary to argue with me how correctly to write in Russian авиа́ции or а́виации. Stalin became the Marshal of the USSR in 06.03.1943 and Generalissimo in 27.06.1945. Look about it many books and sites:
History of the rank, uniform - In it is written - The rank of Marshal was in November 1943 conferred on Joseph Stalin himself. Soon after the war it is held by two Stalin's associates, Lavrenti P. Beria and Nikolai A. Bulganin, who never were military commanders (both were later deprived of the rank). As for Stalin, he becomes, June 27, 1945, Generalissimo of the Soviet Union. Particular rank badges for Generalissimo were never elaborated, and the Soviet leader wore a jacket with Marshal's shoulder-straps. This rank formally existed until the dissolution of the USSR but was never conferred on anyone but Stalin.
The service ranks of the soldiers of Russia and USSR. - see THE VIII. Period of 1943-1945. - On 26 June, 1945, by the Decree of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR is introduced the title generalissimo, which on 27 June, 1945, was appropriated to the supreme commander-in-chief by the armed forces OF THE USSR To I.V.Stalin.
Encyclopedia—Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin-Soviet Leader and Stalin - In it is written - The extent to which Stalin as a military leader subsequently contributed to Soviet victory has been fiercely debated among Soviet and Western authors; his forceful leadership was probably a greater asset than his military capability. He directed the war effort from the Kremlin, where he remained when the rest of the government was evacuated. He was voted the rank of marshal of the Soviet Union (1943) and of generalissimo (1945).
USSR ranks 1943-55 and Sovietarmy ranks 1943-55 - In it is written - 26 июня 1945 года И.В.Сталину было присвоено вновь введенное звание "Генералисимус". Он был единственным генералиссимусом Советской Армии.
Also you can see File:Supreme or General Officers 1940-1945.xls Soviet Supreme or General Officers 1940-1945 or Supreme or General Officers 1940-1945- see numbers 5720 and 5721- СТАЛИН Иосиф Виссарионович-Маршал Советского Союза 06.03.1943, Генералиссимус Советского Союза 27.06.1945.
About Chief Marshal of the Air Force and other Marshal have gone out of use only in 1990 -1991 you can see sovarm 1980-93 and rusarm-1985-92 - In it is written - К концу 1990 года маршальские звания родов войск вообще исчезают. Хотя они остаются в системе званий, однако их имеют лишь несколько престарелых военачальников, которые лишь числятся на службе (маршалы увольнению в запас не подлежат, их служба пожизненная).Last period for which there were changes in system of the Soviet ranks were 1980-1991, not 1988-1991.
I think you, not I, need to do some external research before you keep editing to Wikipedia and your personally knowledge wrong. You,not I,add incoherent, unverified, and senseless "facts" about USSR and Russia to the Wikipedia. And in 100 times I repeat that not Roitr but in some clauses I am agree with him, though not in all and with you was not agree-with some not checked up by you data. Please don't change, don't erase and don't redirect my page Tt1 - is my personal page and I shall decide what to erase here and that was not. Also don't count clause which I corrected and edited, I don't count yours corrected and edited-correct your changes or not. Thank you for your understanding-Tt1 23:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
- I just don't care anymore - all I know is, that Stalin was the Field MArshal of the Soviet Union in 1943 - he created the Generalissimo rank for himself in 1945, I overlooked this earlier, so I guess Tt1 would be right about this. But this other stuff seems to be far fetched. εγκυκλοπαίδεια* 02:38, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- Tt1, you are correct about the "авиа́ции" word but wrong about lyotchik. In russia civil pilots a called "пило́т" (pilót), and military pilots are called "лё́тчик" (lyótchik), it is a military profession not a rank same as pilot not a rank in any military. Word "солда́т" (soldát) means soldier and used same way as in english. Word "моря́к" (moryák) in russian comes from word "море́" (moryé) meaning sea so in general speech it coul be translated as a seaman (even some online translaters do that) or as a sailor, but in military ranks important is the equevalency not the translation, and the equivalent to U.S. rank of seeman would be russian rank of matros, while moryak is general term which could applied to anybody who seves in navy or in a civil fleet. --DimaY2K 13:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
что бляд?! -PurCitron
Uhh, considering that no one seems to be disputing anything since the end of January, can we take the "disputed" signs off the article now? Kazuaki Shimazaki 12:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree as it's now 14 Nov. :) Bdevoe 18:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Currently, all Russian rank titles in the table are bolded, which seems unnecessary to me. Would anyone object if I removed the bolding?
Also, only a few of the Russian ranks (Generalissimo, Marshal of the SU, Admiral of the Fleet of the SU, Marshal, Chief Marshal) are capitalized at the moment; the rest are fully lowercased. Is there a reason for this disparity? If not, which style is more correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alkari (talk • contribs) 08:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC).
There has been much reverting and re-reverting of this page lately, with a major point of controversy being the "Soviet Air Force and other Soviet military branches" column. I agree with DmitryKo and 126.96.36.199 that that column is unnecessary and repetitive, and I fully support their reverting of that part of the article.
I am concerned, however, that useful information in the introductory section and in the section just below the table is also being lost with the reverting, and that the rank of Generalissimo of the Soviet Union seems to have disappeared from the table as well.
I have just edited the page to reincorporate the text that was lost, while keeping the table in its present form (i.e. without the "Soviet Air Force..." column. I have also taken the opportunity to make a few stylistic changes (the main one being the removal of bolding from the Russian rank titles, which has bothered me for quite some time). I hope that the new version will be acceptable to all. If not, I'd be more than happy to discuss the matter further.
- I'm afraid there is very little reason to include Generalissimo here, since it was not included in the rank system but rather was a personal honorary rank of Stalin. As for other information, actually it's mostly my own text copied from History of Russian military ranks, which I wrote upon expanding that article  - compare with  (it was copyedited a bit since then). This is the usual modus operandi of our good old friend WP:LTA/Roitr - he is vastly illiterate in English, so he has to steal well-formed text from other related articles to conceal his identity and make his edits appear more legitimate than they really are. --Dmitry (talk •contibs ) 14:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm fine with relegating Generalissimo to a note below the table, as opposed to including it in the table itself. I do think it deserves some mention on the page, since it was a military rank of the Soviet Union (albeit an honorary one, and only held by Stalin). Regarding the other information, I'd like to know whether you object to its being used in this article. I feel that it provides useful background for the table, and I'm not entirely happy about it being removed along with the "Soviet Air Force..." column. If there's a compelling reason not to use that text on this page, perhaps we can write equivalent text to replace it. (The copyediting you refer to, by the way, was mostly done by me .) Alkari (?) 02:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Rather than placing the same brief summary, I believe it would be beneficial to expand this article with relevant tables and images on 1922-1935-1940 ranks and link this section from the History of Russian military ranks a 'main article' on this period (and maybe remove the tables on current ranks from there)... but this is sure an enormous task, given all the changes of this time period, and I'm not currently able to devote the amount of time needed to complete it :( --Dmitry (talk •contibs ) 05:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
"Soviet Air Force ..." column (again)
This column has reappeared (actually, it seems to have been here since 1 May, although I didn't notice it at the time). If the users who've been re-inserting the Air Force column (who I rather suspect are sockpuppets of Roitr) would like to give a convincing argument as to why it should be kept, I'd be happy to listen. However, there seems to be consensus among everyone else that the column should not be included. Is there any objection to my removing the column again, and continuing to do so should it reappear? Alkari (?) 22:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
- Since there has been no comment here, I have gone ahead and removed the Air Force column. Alkari (?) 23:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
- For Air Force I agread that you can removed becuse Air Force is under the army oficials, but you can't remove the Generalissimo of the Soviet Union because this is military rank created before USSR collapse, and this was highest rank in USSR military from 1917-1991.
- I agree that the rank of Generalissimo should be mentioned on the page (there is presently a paragraph about it below the rank table). However, the table is supposed to show the rank structure circa 1980–1991, and there was no Generalissimo after Stalin's death in 1953, so I don't believe that that rank belongs in the 1980–1991 table. The table in its present form definitely does not represent the rank structure in use during the entire Soviet period. Perhaps we need multiple rank tables on this page to reflect the different rank structures which existed at different times. Alkari (?) 07:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- No need for two tables I simply added Generalissimo rank and extended the period from 1917-1991. Because Soviet Union from 1953 never again used this rank, it does't mean that it does't exsist.
- I see your point about Generalissimo continuing to exist after Stalin's death – although, since it was more of an honorary title than a true rank, I'm not sure whether it actually did so. Unless and until we have evidence to the contrary, I'm quite fine with Generalissimo remaining in the table.
- However, we can't extend the period to 1917–1991, because the rank structure did not remain the same during the entire Soviet period. The rank structure presently on the page is the 1980–1991 one, and it's incorrect and misleading to say that the same structure was used in 1917, because it wasn't. Most of those ranks didn't exist at all until the 1930s or 40s, and some weren't used until much later. If we want to show pre-1980 rank structures, that's fine, but we'll need additional tables to do so. Alkari (?) 23:38, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
User:Snake bgd: You recently changed the period above the rank table to 1945–1991, with the following comment:
- Rank of Generalissimo of the Soviet Union was not in offical in 1980 so you can't say that this rank are from 1980-1991
I agree entirely. However, I feel that the correct solution to this issue is to remove Generalissimo from the table, not to arbitrarily change the date. This isn't the 1945 rank structure; it's the 1980 one, and we shouldn't be telling readers otherwise. If WWII-era or post-WWII-era ranks are to be on this page, someone will need to research that topic and create a second table, because the rank structures of those eras are not the same. Unless and until that happens, I request that you not alter the dates on the table further. I'm quite fine with Generalissimo remaining or being removed, as you prefer. Alkari (?) 22:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
There are not insignia of generalissimo of the Soviet Union.
I think the insignia of generalissimo of the Soviet Union on this article are fake. They never existed. Stalin was made genaralissimo on 06-27-1945: . As you can see clearly after his making genaralissimo on these posters  (after declaration of PRC 1949-50)   that photo  (Potsdam Conference 07/17/45-08/02/45) and this picture:  (2nd order of victory 06/26/1945: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Victory) Stalin never wore these insignia. You can see at the insignia of Stalin in his coffin  the big star of the marshal and not the smaller one of generalissimo. So, the rank of generalissimo was a honorable rank wihtout insignia. In http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%E1%BA%A5p_b%E1%BA%ADc_qu%C3%A2n_%C4%91%E1%BB%99i_c%E1%BB%A7a_Li%C3%AAn_bang_X%C3%B4_vi%E1%BA%BFt the insignia of generalissimo are considered as insignia of the marshal of aviation of the Soviet Union. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 09:21, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Rank comparisons" section
"Rank comparisons" section moved out of the Marshal of the Soviet Union page, where it was obviously misplaced. Also, it was unreferenced there. It seems that it somewhat overlaps with the other content. Please incorporate it properly and supply with references. Lom Konkreta (talk) 20:22, 18 April 2011 (UTC)