Talk:Mr. Popo/Archive 1

look...

STOP MAKING THE BLACK FACE THING MR POPO IS NOT BASED ON BLACKS! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.202.88.118 (talk • contribs) .

That's got to be the most racist images I've seen in a long time. If it weren't anime, I'd probably mistake it for hate group propaganda.

Black djinns/genies

Please stop vandalizing the page gay. The information is based on the style of caricature -- and the fact that protestors thought the similarity was striking enough to force the company to alter the image. Japan has a history of producing images such as these, back to when it was Occupied Japan, shortly after WWII, and has continued to produce such images.[1] No one is saying the production of such caricatures has been intentionally racist. But the fact is -- just as in other societies -- the depiction of blacks in such a manner became an accepted practice in Japan, but because of different demographics and different histories, our cultures have evolved differently regarding sensibilities toward race and racism. What is acceptable in Japan is not now acceptable in the United States, and vice versa.

I, myself, wasn't aware of Mr. Popo until someone inserted the reference in the "blackface" article, but when I checked it out, there is no question that Mr. Popo is darky iconography. Djinns are an Middle Eastern thing, and djinns are often black. And the fact is no other people are caricatured in such a fashion -- with big, googly eyes; prominent, red lips; and inky skin. I'd like to refer you to this.[2] Perhaps you'll think differently after you read the section of the article on blackface. Peace. deeceevoice 11:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

djinns aren't africans, hey reverned deeceevoice stop doing this, if your a black supremist and i suggest you stop. (unsigned post by User:Synthe)

Djinns are, indeed, often black Africans. The Arab world has a long history of enslavement of African peoples. Djinns, for all their magical powers, are often thought of as slaves with masters. (Everyone knows the tale of Aladdin and his magic lamp, where the djinn, or genie, was forced to grant the owner of the lamp three wishes.)

Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim

as-salaam alikum

O White Djinn, Radiance of Mohammad

king of all spirits within me

O Black Djinn, shadow of myself

AWAY, destroy my enemy

--and if you do not

then be considered a traitor to Allah

--by virtue of the charm

La illaha ill'Allah

Mohammad ar-Rasul Allah

The folklore of Maylasia (an Islamic country), for example, features almost 200 different specifically black djinn, some of them imported from Arab culture. African American actor Rex Ingram[3] played the genie (djinn) in the 1940 movie The Thief of Baghdad.[4] (That's his face on the box.) They specifically cast a black man in the role for the very reason that djinn are commonly thought of as being black. deeceevoice 21:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

A more contemporary example of the popular/widespread black genie character that just occurred to me is Shaquille O'Neal in that dog of a movie Kazaam (1996).[5] deeceevoice 11:01, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any proof that Mr Popo is a parody of blacks? why won't you watch the show yourself? that person also talks about White Djinn's so none of that makes sense (unsigned post by User:Synthe).

Synthe, I appreciate your willingness to discuss (I consider "debate" an inappropriate word) the matter here. However, I restored the text because I did add citation -- and you presented absolutely no reason/justification in your edit note when you deleted it, which is not appropriate Wiki procedure. If you have questions or concerns, please let me know. Peace. deeceevoice 11:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

H-m-m. I just noticed that, for some reason, the references don't seem to be registering in the document. If you enter the edit screen, you can recover the link I inserted. Perhaps you know what the problem is. Meanwhile, I'll investigate and see what can be done to rectify the matter. deeceevoice 11:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

GIVE ME A GOOD REASON WHY YOU THINK THAT MR POPO IS BASED ON BLACKS AND BLACK FACE! (unsigned post) User: Synthe

It's not what I think. I couldn't care less about some Japanese cartoon. And, not meaning to be impolite, neither do I care what you think on the subject. This isn't about personal opinions; it's about facts. The game has been assailed as being racist. That's the point. And that is indisputable. The information as presented in the article is objective, factual and sourced, as required. So, what's your beef? Furthermore, I am not seeing-impaired. You needn't communicate in all caps. In cyberspace, it's considered rude; you're screaming at me. Chill. Finally, it is not appropriate practice simply to delete whole portions of adequately sourced text without some explanation, some justification. This is the second time you've deleted the sourced version of the text without providing any justification/reason whatsoever. If you continue to do so, I'll have to suggest that action be taken to prevent you from continuing to do so. Also, please sign your posts. deeceevoice 21:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Dragon ball is not a game its a Tv show, just because you think some character which you never heard or seen before, is based on blacks because of their apperance doesn't mean thats what it is, mr popo is not based on blacks the creator of the show based him on a wise hindu dijinn teacher. Thats like saying a doll colored black is racist aginist blacks and a example of blackface when the truth is that its not. futhurmore you know nothing about dragon ball or mr popo snice you never seen a episode that showed him, consider reading the article about him. (another unsigned post by User:Synthe

Again, it doesn't matter what I think. The material presented is NPOV and properly sourced. What don't you understand? Follow the link and read the material. Just because you don't think it's racist doesn't mean it isn't. Again, your personal opinion is utterly irrelevant here. Please stop reverting text without justification. You are not a new editor, so you must be aware of the Wikipedia: 3RR. The fact that you may disagree with something in the text is not sufficient grounds to delete properly sourced information. Darky iconography has become part of Japanese culture, and Mr. Popo clearly is that. No one has alleged that the creator of Dragonball is racist, or that his intentions were/are racist. But the style of caricature is viewed as racist -- and has been viewed as racist for as long as it's been around, since the late 1800's. By the 1960's it pretty much disappeared here in the U.S. because of new, wider-spread attitudes against such kinds of depictions. In Japan, there simply haven't been enough black people historically to object to such depictions. It's tantamount to having a U.S. animation series with a short, bucktoothed, squinty-eyed (with round spectacles), yellow-skinned Japanese character who kow-tows constantly, says, "Ah-so" all the time and speaks with a heavy accent, and who has a camera permanently strapped on. People find it objectionable. It's a cultural thing. deeceevoice 22:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Isnt that your opinion? (Another unsigned post by User: Synthe)

This[6] isn't. It's the source quoted in the text you keep deleting. You've provided nothing but your personal opinion -- and on a matter which isn't even relevant to the disputed text. deeceevoice 00:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You provided nothing but what some person thinks rather then using common sense. that article only mentions "Mr. Popo, a Dragonball Z character, is a rotund genie, dwarfish, with pointed ears, jet-black skin, and large red lips. He is a loyal servant." yet he is a loyal servant to a green alien man with pointy ears and two antenna's,NOT a white person. So is this about blackface or slave? (Another unsigned post by User:Synthe)

I reinserted the text after I provided a(nother) learned source (which is what is required for appropriate documentation), who is not the only person who sees Mr. Popo as a racist caricature. Otherwise, the company would not have altered the character's appearance in U.S. distribution. The uproar/outrage over the character was signficant enough for a Japanese corporate entity to alter Mr. Popo's image -- at no small cost. The other link is to "Japan's Bigoted Export to Kids." That's now two sources of documentation. There are ample additional examples about the kind of darky iconography the Japanese routinely engage in all over the net.[7] It's part of Japanese culture. Here, you've provided zilch -- nothing substantive in your edit notes and nothing on the talk page to discredit or prove the information false -- and on Wikipedia, that means the text stays. Stop acting like an otaku and be rational/reasonable. I've now given you a 3RR warning. Again. deeceevoice 07:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

you gived me a link to a character from pokemon..... also i'm not a otaku, you still have no proof that mr popo was based on blackface. you sound like one of those idiots who cry on what you "THINK" is racism. so if mr popo was pink instead of black it isnt racist?

Heres a quote from the article "Japan's Bigoted Export to Kids." "Neither icon bears even the slightest resemblance to Jynx or Mr. Popo, however. Known to millions of children through cartoons and product tie-ins, Jynx and Mr. Popo depict descendants of Africa through the bigoted lens of white supremacy. These stereotypical characters could adversely affect black children's malleable self- images."

White supremacy? what the heck? mr popo is not a sterotypical character of blacks, his characteristics is of a wise teacher, (another unsigned post by User:Synthe)

Synthe, you're arguing with a learned source. The quote you present, in fact, supports the text you keep deleting. Again, your personal opinion here does not count. While you were authoring your last post, I was busy documenting your edit warring. You are in violation of the 3RR -- and that's since I added the second source. Your actions are counterproductive and not in the best interests of the project. Stop. deeceevoice 16:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting how things pop up when they're least expected. Was looking for online references to the blatant racism of the movie "Gremlins" (today's featured article, which -- no surprise -- doesn't even mention the controversy), and came across this. Now, tell me. What's the difference between the genie (further evidence to suppoprt my contention about the blackness of djinns/genies) in this cartoon[8] and Mr. Popo? Answer: not a hell of a lot. deeceevoice 09:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Synthe, I appreciate your willingness to accommodate some of the language; but I also restored the language with the link to Ferris U. The accompanying edit note explains why. Tell me, do you know if the language about the company actually removing Mr. Popo's lips is accurate? I somehow doubt the character doesn't have lips. Did they actually remove them or merely make them less prominent (downsize them or change their color)? If the current language isn't accurate -- since you seem to be familiar with the cartoon and I admittedly am not -- would you see to it? Thanks. :) deeceevoice 02:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

So now you're back to removing all the sourced text and both sources and inserting your own POV language "confused" -- as though the learned sources and the protesting public are somehow mistaken. You're being intentionally obtuse. Again, it doesn't matter what your personal opinion is. This isn't a blog. I've restored the relevant text. Please refrain from edit warring on this matter. It's to the detriment of the project. If you continue to do so I will ask that you be blocked again. If your behavior persists, you may be barred from editing the article entirely. And, again, do you have any information about Mr. Popo's lips? Does he actually not have any in the American version of the game? Have they been completely removed? deeceevoice 11:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

you are using inaccurate material i looked at http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/ myself and it no where explains why mr popo is racist. just because it's a source DOES NOT MEAN ITS ALWAYS RIGHT. (another unsigned post by User:Synthe)

In this case, it is a learned source -- and the information provided explains the charge of racism vis-a-vis the Mr. Popo caricature (read the entire page for context -- not just that subsection) and places it in historical context. As simply a random, lowly editor (as we all pretty much are), you are not in a position to challenge a learned source. You may present a countervailing learned source, if you have one -- but nothing more. The text I've inserted into this article links Mr. Popo very clearly to darky iconography (he's at the top of the page, for God's sake) and also explains its historical context in Japan. Darky iconography is part of Japanese culture. Now, if it would make you feel better to find and include some quote or something in which DragonBall's creator (or someone of note) speaks about how it was not an intention to create an offensive character, then you're certainly invited/entitled to do so. But your vandalism of the article is unacceptable. deeceevoice 21:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

a image above a page does not prove anything, that article does not say anything about japan. also you haven't even seen mr popo in that show for yourself so your opinion is invalid. (another unsigned post by User:Synthe)

For the last time, I don't have an opinion. Nowhere here have I advanced my own opinion; I've merely reported the opinion of another. The other information, including the link to Carol Boston Weatherford, was here before I came to the piece. We're simply retreading old ground, and I have no more patience with this or you. I've offered you a suggestion. Take it or don't. deeceevoice 21:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

"don't" look i don't care if you have a source, explain how it is accurate.

deeceevoice, do you think [9] and [10] are meant to be offensive? I recall this article once made reference to such a similarity, and also gave due weight to this minority, largely unjustified idea. But now it contains a single, very long POV statement promoting a narrow, ignorant and otherwise totally unjustified viewpoint. Why not simply say that "some have noticed a similarity to blackface", rather than openly accusing it of being "based on blackface", because I have never heard of Toriyama admitting (or even any non-American source claiming) that the latter is the case. elvenscout742 00:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

He's also older and more important than that green man with antennae whom you are claiming is his "master" to support this idea that he is a stereotypical "slave" type. Kami-samas come and go, but Popo simply always is. elvenscout742 00:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, my opinion isn't important. And, no. The photo link you provided is not darky iconography. There's an obvious difference between a figure with dark skin and red lips and one with dark skin, googly eyes and oversize, exaggerated, red lips. The source and information are accurate. And the earlier contentions that a djinn is connected with Hinduism are absurd. A djinn is Middle Eastern in origin, and he (Mr. Popo) is a black African. The text is accurate as it stands. deeceevoice 04:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

mr popo is african? WHAT are you on? Synth 14:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Civility deeceevoice 15:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC) (Note that the above comment from Synthe was later altered, with the reference to "drugs" removed.) deeceevoice 07:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Mr popo isnt african he's a dijnn figure but more hindu based.

Mr. Popo is a comic strip character (not a video game character, or whatever you think he is - leave major edits to articles to the people who understand the subject-matter, please). He is meant as a caricature/parody of such Hindu artwork, and this is why his features are exaggerated so. It is simply a coincidence and the result of a cultural misunderstanding, as with [[Jynx (Pokémon)]. BTW, your source is an unreliable one to quote as a representation of fact; its only use is to point out an example of people who (wrongly) believe this. I have exhausted my argument, so if this doesn't work we may need help to resolve this conflict. elvenscout742 21:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I also see very little reason for claiming he is djinn of sub-Saharan or West African stock. I don't recall the word being used in (the French version of) the manga (the one I read), and the French Wikipedia proclaims him to be of "eastern" (either Indic or Arabic - i.e., Caucasian) appearance. And the fact is that such a character would have developed in his very long life a melanin content appropriate for his geographical location ;). elvenscout742 22:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Its truely amazing how some of you react. Its like you blind yourselfs. The person consistently represents that he isn't saying Toriyama is racist, and that it's simply a practice of portraying some dark skinned people which started around WWII in that country. A practice that no one or few, care anything about. Whether the character in canon is from africa or not doesn't even matter. I know about the character, that doesn't mean I'm blind to logic. This is what is presented as follows. Toriyama did something innocuous in japan, others from a different culture that view that differently take offense.

Re:Mr. Popo...

(relocated from User talk: deeceevoice)

What do you mean "Just because you don't think it's racist doesn't mean it isn't"? Surely this is more of an argument against what you have done, since what you have done is based entirely on what some people think, and that does not mean that it is racist. Clearly what you have done unilaterally is not based on facts, but on personal opinion. The only "fact" of this is that some highly brittle African-Americans have claimed that it is based on blackface, and until you came along. By your own admission, you were unaware of the character - perhaps even of Dragon Ball - until an unfortunate incident on an unrelated Wikipedia article. Do you have any sources other than English Wikipedia itself and various Afro-American identity websites? Anything from a publisher with a name like Christian Science should be treated as highly dubious, and is not an appropriate source for an encyclopedia. Can you understand Japanese? I ask becuase there are NO authoritative English language publications on this topic - only bad translations, fan material and observation. On brief examination of the French editions of the manga (closer to the original than any American butchery) where he first appears, i don't see any use of words like "djinn" and "genie" anyway, so you can't argue based on the unjustified statement that he is a djinn from Arabic/North African mythology. The previous version pointed out the at least equally possible evidence for a basis on Indian artwork, and given the pose he takes on Toriyama's cover art for issue #164 (I can't seem to find it on the web - here's a bit of it that allows you almost to properly see his hands), this seems all the more likely. BTW, the fact that some darky iconography exists in Japan as a result of American imperialism means that such a thing as you have claimed could be possible but is not evidence of it. If you cannot replace what you have given with more valid sources - ones not referring to the Dragon Ball franchise as a "game" called "Dragonball Z" would be nice - within the next few days, I shall be forced to at least tone down your edits in the article itself, and reinstate the possible alternative. elvenscout742 17:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

As I've said repeatedly here -- which is where this discussion belongs -- this as absolutely nothing to do with my personal opinion. The information is legitimate and adequately sourced. I'm not going to continue this debate here, because you've offered absolutely nothing substantive to show it isn't relevant and appropriate here.

I think what he was saying that You (Deeceevoice) ARE using In-accurate sources that is biased to your opinion. it was your opinion from the beginning,and deeceevoice try watching the show first. elvenscout try getting help from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AMA_Requests_for_Assistance Synth 00:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the changes to the text for the reasons cited in the edit note: No evidence was presented to support the contention that Mr. Popo is modeled after Hindu art. The company didn't change the lips to "avoid controversy"; the controversy already existed -- which is what prompted the change. And it is not Wiki style to arbitrarily bold words for emphasis. It's just not done -- not on Wikipedia or in any encyclopedia.

Finally, if you wish to take the text to dispute resolution, you're certainly welcome to do so. Neither of you has provided any adequately sourced information to discredit or dispute the information provided -- just your personal opinions. Nor have you apparently even bothered to try to provide a quote the effect that the perceived racism was unintentional -- which, I would think, would be fairly easy to do; it would seem to me the company or the creator must have made such a statement or statements. I don't know what you hope to accomplish with dispute resolution; but, hey, be my guest. deeceevoice 01:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

No evidence was presented to support the contention that Mr. Popo is modeled after Blackface or african americans, The company did change it to avoid controversy how do you claim its racist BEFORE you release it?, deeceevoice you are a black supremist admit it, also you don't have accurate sources to explain that mr popo is based on black face,it would seem to me that you always refuse to answer my questions. Also that source you had to support YOUR OPINION that mr popo is based on blackface has NOTHING but a few lines WITHOUT anything to support the claim. YOU DO NOT HAVE PROOF THAT THE CREATOR INTENDED MR POPO TO BE BASED ON BLACKS SO STOP.On your Next Reply i demand that you post rebuttals to my statement thats IF you can failure to reply will result in another of my changes. Synth 01:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Synthe, stop with the stupid personal attacks. Again, I've provided a source that supports the text I've introduced into the article. And one source was already there. That's two. You inserted a contention that Mr. Popo is based on Hindu art -- which you've failed utterly to substantiate; you haven't even tried. You're in no position to "demand" anything. As I've already stated -- and I will not do so again -- you cannot refute the material provided; it is properly sourced. What you can do is provide an alternative viewpoint with proper documentation. And so far, you've failed/refused to do so. Not my problem. deeceevoice 02:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You failed to make a connection to mr popo and blackface,you can not put your opinion on a article, also 1. WATCH Dragonball and Dragonball z 2.Your sources does not have a valid and accurate backup to your claim these sources does not even mention a reason why mr popo is based on blackface and the african american sterotype. 3. Viz edited out the lips to prevent controversy NOT BECAUSE THERE WAS ONE AT ALL 4.STOP AND I MEAN STOP USING THE SAME THING WHEN YOU ANSWER MY STATEMENT SAYING THAT I DON'T HAVE A VALID CLAIM YOU KEEP USING IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN WHAT ONLY IF YOUR CLAIM TAKES UP 1/4 OF THE PAGE THEN IT WILL STASIFY YOU?

To simplify things, I deleted the reference in the text to blackface long ago and did not object when you removed the article from the "See also" section. After all, "darky iconography" already links to the article, and the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia link, with the image of Mr. Popo at the very top of the page next to the header "New Racist Forms: Jim Crow in the 21st Century," is more than adequate to illustrate the point.

And, no. It is not acceptable for you to obliterate a block of properly sourced text completely without justification, with merely an edit note, "There I fixed the article into one that makes more sense". Stop vandalizing the article. Several times now, I've provided suggestions about how you can present another view of the matter utilizing informed sources/citations. Yet, you would prefer instead to spend your time edit warring/vandalizing the article and engaging in personal attacks. You're behaving in a manner contrary to the interests of the project. Stop. deeceevoice 11:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

To simplfy my statement mr popo is not darky iconography but some form of hindu art for example a turban is middle eastern and Indian(india) NOT AFRICAN, also the link with the so called "Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia link has Nothing but a image and a small text just saying that mr popo from dragon ball z THIS DOES NOT PROVE TO BE A USEABLE AND ACCURATE SOURCE,also i'm not vandalizing i'm removing your opinion from this article wikipedia is not a editoral where everyone puts their opinion and claim its fact which is what you do deeceevoice, Now Stop

The reference given classes him as "New Black Caricatures", which is enough for me. Apart from the intent of the character design, do you have any references for the non-caricature viewpoint? LinaMishima 22:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Wheres proof that it was New Black Caricatures? A Genie(Indian) in a turban(Indian) and has black skin, that is not racist black caricatures that is Indian Art.

Let me see both sources [1]A picture in the title proves nothing, "Mr. Popo, a Dragonball Z character, is a rotund genie, dwarfish, with pointed ears, jet-black skin, and large red lips. He is a loyal servant." AH HA !!!! LOOK AT THIS, THIS PROVES NOTHING THAT MR POPO IS DARK ICONGRAPHY, It IS HINDU ART! AND IT HAS NO EXPLANTION THAT MR POPO IS BASED ON BLACK ICONGRAPHY Are you talking about dark icongraphy or racist icongraphy? He is a loyal servant To a green man that HAS POINTY EARS and uses a brown staff and lives in the sky

[2]http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/more/popo1.htm this link is really stupid it shows a picture of mr popo in a indian turban, baggy pants,rings and a non african jacket, a real "African Racist Iconography" would feature mr popo in a gangsta t shirt one teeth ripped out jeans and a baseball cap which isnt there,

[3]http://hk.geocities.com/poke124mon282/cbw2.htm That link is dead

" Neither icon bears even the slightest resemblance to Jynx or Mr. Popo, however. Known to millions of children through cartoons and product tie-ins, Jynx and Mr. Popo depict descendants of Africa through the bigoted lens of white supremacy. These stereotypical characters could adversely affect black children's malleable self- images." I'll laugh at this mr popo is the bigoted lens of white supremacy, Hindu art racist? BAH!

"Not coincidentally, both Jynx and Mr. Popo were created by Japanese animators. Apparently, racist stereotypes that would shock Americans don't raise an eyebrow in much of Asia." Err this coming out from a children's book author that wasn't even in asia

"When I first glimpsed Jynx on the "Pok�mon" cartoon, I thought surely the character was an aberration. Then I saw Mr. Popo, a cosmic character from "Dragonball Z." Mr. Popo is a rotund, turban-clad genie with pointy ears, jet-black skin, shiny white eyes, and, yes, big red lips." How does this prove that its racist? its apperance is closer to hindu art then Racist Black icongraphy,Also Why are you ignoring my statement to watch dragonball? i'll spoil it for you, mr popo is a skilled wise man and teacher that tends the grounds of a temple in the sky that is owned by a GREEN man,

[4] In early 2004, Viz, the company that translates and publishes the English language version of the Dragon Ball manga, began to digitally reduce the size of Mr. Popo's lips in an effort to soften its racist image (click on the images, provided by Daizenshuu EX, to see larger versions).

There was no claim of racism they edited it so no idiot would cry racism.

So lets Review Mr popo personality is of a wise and skilled teacher (Watch Dragonball) Mr popo is based hindu art not a portrayl of african americans which the creator that lives in japan would PROBALY NEVER SEEN A AFRICAN AMERICAN. I was away with my parents they wanted me to buy hoodies for myself so i've only answered by now Synth 22:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Look, provide references for his non-caricature background, and then we can give that one greater coverage, as will become the obvious intent. But there is no point removing the caricature references, as these are strongly felt opinions about his appearence, and true or false they deserve a mention as per WP:NPOV. Reference first, then argue. You are acting quite uncivil at the moment with such talk page comments. LinaMishima 22:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Lina don't get into this, Mr popo wears a turban(indian) is a genie(indian or middle eastern), he has pointy ears and black skin BUT is wise this is NOT a black caricature its INDIAN ART. Japan is in asia therefore it borrows some things from its asian neighboors, buddhaism is Indian japan borrowed it changed it to shinto, japan borrowed curry and other indian things heck why not make a character based on something different?

Firstly, please sign your comments with ~~~~, it makes reading easier. Secondly, any unreferenced statement can currently be removed, as per WP:VERIFY. Although in this case it is obvious that he is supposed to be a genie, this does not rule out the concept, nor does it rule out the published opinions of others. Get me a reference that he was originally intended to be not a black caricature (or even of similar indian art!), and we can give that part a stronger weight, otherwise the idea that he is a caricature should be expressed clearly and without any caveats. Your use of bold text and SHOUTING is getting quite tiresome. Please remember to assume good faith, I'm trying to help improve this article. LinaMishima 22:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Get me a Reference that the creator intended mr popo to be a black caricature, INDIAN ART ISNT AFRICAN RACIST,I'm trying to remove something unture which is a Opinion of one person that Should NOT be labeled as fact References(WRITTEN BY ONE PERSON WHICH IS HIS OPINION) should not over power common sense, I looked at the source jnyx is based on a slut with blonde hair blackface,the pirate woman looks ugly racist, huge monkey with jamaican hair, Mr popo a genie of indian art with a turban NOT RACIST We can do this All day i'm a zombie like person i go to school finish homework and have a lot of free time this can last a whole year if it has to. Lina let me ask if you even watched dragonball yourself deeceevoice DID NOT, Synth 22:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Once again, I remind you you need not SHOUT or use bold text as heavily as you do. No formal warnings have been issued yet, as I trust you will get the point this time. Be calm, be polite, be civil, and you may get further.

Now, that's not how things around here work. When there's a perfectly good reference, in this case to a university museum (the other references are dead or indirect), we should work said material into the article, even if it's an opinion, rather than the official status. WP:NPOV is about expressing all viewpoints with appropriate weight, not only expressing the opinion of the original character designer.

And on that note, we will likely be biasing the wording slightly towards the supposed indian origin, because that does seem to be the character concept. But I have also seen good arguments above for why this may also be of a black person, and hence why the caricature may have been used. Again, references here for this being a traditional indian representation or representation of indians would be most useful. LinaMishima 22:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Give me reasons that mr popo is of a black person, Answer this first and watch dragonball mr popo is not a personality of a black person also... WATCH DRAGONBALL!!!!! I'll help its episode 124-126 where they show mr popo for episode 124 skip 10 minutes thats where they get to the part with mr popo , lina if you say that black icongraphy is popular in japan then give me photos and links of people running around with a picture of a dark icongraphy in japan to prove it Synth 23:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't have to explain anything, and indeed when editing articles we should never do that - instead we references to perform the detailed explainations for us, only summarising them. check out external link 1 on the article, and it is quite clear that some people hold that view. It matters not if this is the original intent or not, it is still a valid view.

Indeed, given that the original DB was from the golden age of anime (if I recall correctly, the character designs certainly hark back), it would hardly surprise me for this to be intended. The Japanese, like every other cartoonist community in those times, used quite extreme caricatures. My partner's alseep right now, but she knows more about this than me.

Now, it has already been stated that as his dress is more akin to a genie, that is probably the intended caricature, and I'm happy to put this first and foremost. But with a good reference towards the african black design (and the hint of more), this should also be stated. Of course, more references for either couldn't hurt - especially for the intended origin, given this is meer speculation upon the material aired alone. LinaMishima 23:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

And who holds the view thats its racist and a black caricature? only a small group you can't put the opinion of a small group on a article and claim its fact thats like just because people from the flat earth society believe that that the earth is flat but there a group isnt a reason to put that there, a small group of people holds that small view and i can asure you that people who believe that is on a VERY VERY LOW NUMBER, The Apperance is Not of a african american(african i only put american to satisfy deeceevoice) Give me proof that mr popo is of black design just because you Think that it looks black(race) doesn't mean it is... Synth 23:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I have provided you with the reference, and indeed no further proof is needed, especially given the striking similarity to gollywog and similar designs. I'm given you the proof that the opinion is held, and it's quite a valid one. I've not seen any counterproof as to the idea that all such proof is totally wrong, nor have I seen the more important proof for the incidental nature of any offence caused by an unrelated character design. You have, I notice, been asked for this repeatedly. LinaMishima 00:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

There, I've moved the section out from the header (an inappropriate location) to it's own section, removed a lot of the commentary, and added your (unreferenced) argument against the opinion. Looks a lot neater now. LinaMishima 00:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't need references to prove my statement, what? if right now i put a small sentence saying that mr popo is not racist on a college site that its good to go? No it doesn't work that way, a gallywog has a large afro mr popo wears a turban he wears a vest not a shirt, I'VE HAVE NOT SEEN REAL PROOF THAT MR POPO IS A BLACK CARICATURE Stop saying that mr popo is based on a black Caricature some idiot comes here claiming that mr popo is based on blacks and you just defend him because his view isnt shared,Stop doing this reference thing, common sense > reference in THIS argument WHICH IS THAT MR POPO IS NOT BASED ON BLACKS STOP REPEATING AND GIVE ME YOUR REASONS NOT IN ACCUARATE SOURCES AND THE OPINION OF SOMEONE you support this person who comes out of no where and crys racism and you argee with him for no reason, don't try to make this one of those "Person A Claims Y, however source blah blahblah Person B Claims Z" this article is far too small to be doing this, the Child Author claimed that mr popo was racist i checked on the source and found nothing so i edited it out then this Person comes here seeing that its removed crys and instead of putting it back added huge bits Three times that original content and puts huge bits of useless material on a character of a show that he NEVER WATCHED which started this I've tried to put back the original child author claim but he crys even more and demand that i let the black icongraphy and racist steroytype inaccurate source, on the article or else he'll do a 3 edit revert block to oppress me, now should i listen to more trance and techno while your doing this? =) Synth 00:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Look i'm tired lets just all agree to leave it as it is now? We also have a problem the part about the child author claims has a empty source.

Get references and clearly state them

WP:VERIFY allows the removal of any text that cannot be verified. In this case it seems that there are two views on the reasons for Mr. Popo's character design being argued over. Well, if you can find proper references, you can include it. Without explicitly stating references (take a look at WP:CITE), this bickering is likely to continue. Find some references before contining. LinaMishima 11:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Some references I've found so far. Nothing amazingly official, but no forum posts, either.

[11], [12]

Not really a reference, but helps make the point about it being common: [13]

Digital removal of the lips [14]

NB: The existing Jim Crow museum reference is by Dr. David Pilgrim, Professor of Sociology, Ferris State University. That is a good reference indeed! Suspect this may have been published, given it's long list of footnotes.

Currently manually checking google scholar results, too. LinaMishima 01:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

With the expanded text on Mr. Popo's character, I agree with moving the information on the controversy to a separate section. I do not, however, agree with the fact that you deleted much of the text with an edit note that it was unsourced. It seems to me the material is adequately sourced. If, however, you see something that you feel needs documentation, simply use the following notation: , and I'll see what I can do about taking care of it. I've restored the deleted material. It seems to me curious that you would remove a lot of the text, including the links to sources -- and then include a completely unsourced, unsupported claim that Popo has anything to do with Hinduism. It does not. Djinns are Islamic; the term itself is Arabic. I've deleted the unsourced claim. deeceevoice 01:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:VERIFY allows the removal of unreferenced statements without any warning. In this case, as they are being so controversial, such action is surely a good idea. The unreferenced statement intoduced was an attempt to apease the other editor, on the assumption that they would heed the request for a reference. Much of what I removed was additional explaination more appropriate for the blackface article. The geocities link is broken, and the pokemon story, whilst a good idea, is a copy of something published elsewhere, and we should be refering to the original publication, not it's coverage and analysis. Also the entire mention of pokemon is out of place. A seperate article on the portayal of race in anime would be a good idea, in my opinion. LinaMishima 01:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the Hindu reference, because the person making that specious assertion has had ample opportunity to include a reference, and he/she has not. And it is quite clear to me that it has no basis in reality. Furthermore, nowhere in my reading about this character has there been any reference to Hinduism -- which doesn't even have djinns. Again, they are a product of Islamic culture. We should not be about "appeasing" editors who make totally unsubstantiated and circumspect claims. deeceevoice 17:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hehe well I got a big kick out of this thread. Seems dragonball z has some big fans! First of all, it is not a game, it is a cartoon. So anyone saying it is a game needs to take a breather. There are currently three sources

1. The first, from a "learned" individual says "Mr. Popo, a Dragonball Z character, is a rotund genie, dwarfish, with pointed ears, jet-black skin, and large red lips. He is a loyal servant." See how valuable education is? OK, no one really uttered the word "blackface".
2. a link to a geocities (vanity) site. Not a permissible source here, and even if it were, the link is broken.
3. a website called "dogasu's backpack", it is a fansite and not a reliable source by wiki standards. Poor dogasu.

So that's three citations, zero good ones....

Now if I hadn't ever seen a Japanese cartoon I would think this was blackface, and it still may be, but the thing to rememeber is, Japanese cartoons typically have mis-sized mouths. Sometimes they are supersized, sometimes they are just little dots, or invisible (a la Hello Kitty). It also doesn't sound like Mr Popo has any other Sambo-style characteristics.....but I wouldn't be surprised if someone does think he is a blackface figure.

Anyway -- if a good reference is found I think its alright to include this, but till then it doesn't belong. Justforasecond 01:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, can you please remember to read a thread to check for additional sources before declaring you have checked them all? We have an article published in a christian 'journal' (that was geocities link, now removed), and a number of other reasonable commentaries to support this, and more importantly an essay from a Professor of Sociology. So we have the good references. What it doesn't warrent, however, is a massive treatise on the issue - we only really need a handful of good-quality references. And what we really need is some analysis of the character that is more fitting with the nicer interpretation (as I would really like to be able to argue that any blackface-ness is an accident, but we can't without references). LinaMishima 02:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I looked all three of the cites up. All bad. 71.113.114.235 03:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Strange definition of 'bad', then. LinaMishima 13:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1:63650354/Japans+bigoted+exports+to+kids%7eR%7e(Opinion).html notice the part where it says "Opinion" also i can't seem to go to the article Synth 19:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Heres the original article http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/05/04/p9s1.htm its from the christian science monitor as you can see the article is no longer there so therefore we don't have anything Synth 19:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Er, no. We don't have an online copy, but it was published. Hence we have as a reference the physical publication. Wikipedia should never be restricted to online sources only. You can't go to the article at highbeam as you need a subscription. LinaMishima 20:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Rewriten section

I've just rewritten the controversy section again. I've put back in the Feris university Jim Crow museum essay link, as it's by a sociology professor. The reference for Viz's actions has been switched accross to one that is more directly refering to the changes. The mention of darky stereotypes is back, because without it the reason for the controversy may not be apparent (and this the accusation being made, anyhow). LinaMishima 20:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)