Talk:Nemeton

Brushwood Nemeton

I have returned the mention of the Brushwood Nemeton to the article with a broader context. I have included the organization that created it. The citations provided are from third-party books, and the mention of three major Neo-Pagan festivals held at the facility which use the Nemeton provides a context for the existence of the sacred site; it is not just a fancy of some land-owners, but an active ritual space maintained and used by Neo-Druids and other Pagans.

IMO, this simple entry, properly cited, with no links to the Association for Consciousness Exploration website, the Brushwood Folklore Center website, or the Ar nDraiocht Fein website can hardly be called "astroturfing", as Kathryn accuses. Without such links, I don't see a COI issue either. I hope it won't be necessary to start a RFC on that, but I am willing to do so. The Starwood Festival and Brushwood Folklore Center articles both mention this Nemeton. (Even if you have a problem with the Starwood mention - and Starwood was the first event to use the Nemeton - why delete the ENTIRE entry?)

I'd be happy to provide a citation for the fact that the ADF Nemeton was established at Starwood if you think it's necessary [1]. (The Nemeton has been built up a LOT since these pictures were taken, with an impressive altar and sacred art throughout.) I can also provide citations for rituals and classes that have been held there by major figures in the Neo-Druidic and Neo-Pagan community like Isaac Bonewits, Diana L. Paxson, Ian Corrigan, Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison and others at Starwood and elsewhen; about 20 are held at Starwood a year, plus the evening rituals. ACE & ADF members built the first Nemeton at Brushwood before Sirius Rising was a Pagan festival, and the re-established one was built at the 1997 Starwood. This is all too much detail for this article, though, IMO. Rosencomet (talk) 15:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

By the way, there is a Heathen sacred site at Brushwood, too, called the Runestead. Here are a few pictures of it.[2]. Rosencomet (talk) 16:21, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

One problem with the insertion of the Brushwood Nemeton is that the article is almost wholly historic in nature. Except for some instances of the derivation of modern place names from older sites, it deals with non-modern descriptions and locations. Given your COI re: Brushwood and Starwood, it's hard to ignore such a currently incongruous insertion on your part. And Arbcom did find that you have a conflict of interest.

You continue to insert references to Starwood despite the caution by Arbcom to refrain from this. This is practically textbook Astroturfing. Please refresh your understanding of the policies and guidelines around COI by looking at the following links:

• Financial Conflict of Interest
• Self-promotion COI
• Wikipedia is not a soapbox
• How disruptive editors evade detection

I strongly recommend you discard your belief that you are somehow exempt from these policies/guidelines. Really. Your tendentious editing around Starwood remains strong and obvious. Cheers, Pigman☿/talk 22:29, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but so what if the article is mostly historical? It's about nemetons, and if one gets set up in Glastonbury or New England or Finland, I think it's worth noting here if it is not just a mock-up of one or a decoration in someone's back yard. This is a real nemeton used for the same purposes as those in the article by people for whom it is sacred. Considering your editing history, I would think you'd understand that the impression that Druids, Celts, and their religious activities is a misconception that statement of contemporary facts should disabuse the reader of. I know of other present-day nemetons, by the way, but this one is particularly notable and has citations to refer to.

I've deleted the mention of the names of the festivals held at the site where the nemeton stands. I hope this satisfies Kathryn, who could have done the same instead of deleting the entire submission with its legitimate citations. As to the rest of this diatribe against me, I answered it on my talk page where you also posted it. In my opinion, this inappropriate personal scold does not belong here, and should be taken down from this talk page.

Oh, and I am in no way connected to Brushwood, and have never been accused of having a COI concerning it, nor does the Arbcom you cited use the word Brushwood even once.Rosencomet (talk) 16:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The COI concerns mentioned above are palpable, and including a note about a single modern festival places undue weight on fairly unimportant current events. This is bad news for an article on a significant historical phenomenon. The edit warring, relatively low-intensity as it may be, is also a no-go.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I would hope you would pay closer attention to the text you deleted. I had already deleted the mention of the names of the festivals, and I am in no way connected to Brushwood Folklore Center, so that should have eliminated any COI concerns.

As for the rest, I don't see your point. The name of the article is Nemeton. There is no way to judge the "importance" of the historical nemetons mentioned in the article simply because they are mentioned in literature or history. I would like you to explain why mentioning a contemporary nemeton, erected by the biggest Neo-Druidic organization in the Western hemisphere, physically existing and in use by members of a living Druidic tradition for over 12 years and other Pagan traditions besides, properly cited in third-party sources, is unacceptable in this article. Where does it say that only historical nemetons shall be mentioned? What makes the sacred places of ancient people more noteworthy? Should there be a separate section on contemporary nemetons? And why should the opening paragraph be in past tense?

I do not wish to edit-war about this or anything else, but I am quite serious about this question, and am willing to open an RFC to discuss why contemporary nemetons cannot be mentioned in this article without deletion, even when properly cited. If your problem is that only one contemporary nemeton is cited, why not do a little research yourself on others, or at least leave the entry alone for a while (say, a month) and see if entries about other contemporary nemetons join it? Rosencomet (talk) 14:45, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

This article is about the historical phenomenon of nemetons, which were sacred groves of great religious importance in ancient Celtic religion. The modern neopagan festivals adopt the name "nemeton" and employ some of the imagery, but this is a very far remove from being modern equivalents to the ancient sites. The article on the Roman Forum does not discuss the Montreal Forum, simply because it has adopted the name and imagery.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:50, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous comparison. The Montreal Forum is a hockey arena. Nemetons are being used right now. I have photos if you'd like. The people using them are quite serious about their use, which is part of Celtic Spirituality and Neo-Druidic practice. These traditions are well documented, and their adherents are notable enough to have wikipedia articles, including Ar nDraiocht Fein, Asatru, the Troth, The Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids, and others. The term is also becoming popular to describe internet groups dedicated to Celtic Spirituality and those following such paths. I don't see any reason not to mention them in an article about Nemetons, and certainly not to claim no one has used them in centuries. These are real people, and the mere literary mentions that have been assembled in this article give no reason to believe that as many people have used each of the "historical" ones than have used, say, the Brushwood Nemeton, which has hosted hundreds of rituals and classes over the last twelve years.

Frankly, I think you have a bias towards historical things, and are insulting the members of these traditions with your offhand dismissal of their sacred practice (though I will assume good faith that this was not your intent). I urge you to reconsider the issue, and also to explain why this article must only include issues of a historical nature. Where is this written? The Paganism article includes a section on Neo-Paganism. Rosencomet (talk) 16:41, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

First, I want to be clear that it was never my intent to disparage anyone's religious beliefs. All I wish to emphasize is that nemeton is by definition a feature of ancient Celtic religion. The term is not used for similar sacred groves in Germanic, Greco-Roman or other cultures. And once Celtic religion died out, its sacred spaces went with it (where they weren't adapted for another use). The modern sites you've mentioned have adopted the name nemeton and try to capture the imagery and spirit of the ancient santuaries, but the two are not equivalent. It would be one thing if you could find reliable sources discussing ancient nemetons and describing them as a phenomenon that continues today in the neopagan movement. However, I doubt such sources can be found; from what I've seen sources either discuss the historical use, or the modern neopagan use, but not the two together as some continuing tradition. For one example, John Koch's Celtic Culture, an encyclopedia discussing, as its name suggests, Celtic culture, has much to say about historical nemetons and doesn't mention the neopagan use.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:10, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I disagree; I see no reason to assert that a nemeton is by definition part of ancient Celtic religion. If modern Celtic religion uses a nemeton, why not say so? I don't think the definition of the word excludes modern, or for that matter future, examples. Nor do I think it's wholly accurate to say that Celtic religion "died out", although I am certainly not claiming an unbroken chain between the ancients and any of the organizations/traditions I've mentioned above. Nor do I accept the logic that if a particular book doesn't mention something it isn't notable, nor that the same book must mention both ancient and modern examples. These seem to me to be "rules" created out of thin air. I do agree, though, that a sacred space of an entirely other culture should not be called a nemeton. I wouldn't call a Neo-Pagan or Wiccan ritual site a nemeton, but one created by a Neo-Druidic group for specifically Celtic Spirituality observances I would regard differently.

However, I am not going to pursue this any further, at least in the article itself. I have made my case for the mention of contemporary nemetons in the article about nemetons. I have presented examples, and suggested a separate section. I have provided citations. If the contemporary use is not prevalent enough, if the citations don't support the facts' notability enough, I guess no one will include it. But I see no reason that properly-cited data about the revival of an ancient practice should be excluded from an article about that practice. Perhaps the Virginia example is just the use of the word to evoke an association with the subject, but the Brushwood and Dragonskeep nemetons are intended to be sacred spaces used for devotion to the same gods, and the creators use the best information they can find to connect it with the ancient use of nemetons. Perhaps if more are set up, and it is more widely reported, such a section will be considered more notable. And, of course, it should differentiate between them and point out that there is neither a documented unbroken tradition nor sufficient information to make these nemetons reproductions of the ancient ones. And maybe someone will write & publish a thesis like you describe.Rosencomet (talk) 16:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

All we can go by are reliable sources. I checked out the sources you gave, and they don't support what was in the article. The book by Pike has nothing on the Brushwood nemeton being created and maintained by Ar nDraiocht Fein, nothing on it being used for Neopagan rituals or classes, and nothing on three important festivals being held there (only one festival is mentioned, Starwood Festival). The other book is not a reliable source, and it doesn't discuss most of that either. The sources you give below are just the websites of the organizations and groups affiliated with the nemetons. As to the definition, reliable sources do indeed define it as part of ancient Celtic religion. Take Koch, who specifically says: Nemeton is a term for natural space dedicated to pre-Christian Celtic religious activity." As you say, it could be argued that certain aspects of ancient Celtic spiritual belief and practice have survived since ancient times (at least you can find reliable sources that make such an argument), but it can hardly be argued that one of these aspects was the nemeton. The modern Neopagan sites use the name "nemeton" and try to capture the spirit, but this does not make them equivalent to the original. I hold that until we find reliable sources defining nemeton as "sacred spaces of ancient Celtic religion, and also a couple of sites used by modern Neopagans", the modern material needs to stay out.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:59, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Concur. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:19, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Concur.--Wetman (talk) 23:00, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Concur. Pigman☿/talk 15:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

• Starting new row here, getting tired of the skinnier indentations.

You know, I was going to drop this, as I said, but now I have to comment on something Cuchellain said. In the Sarah Pike book, there is a section describing the report in News from the Mother Grove (June-July 1992 issue), the ADF Newsletter, of the opening and consecration of the Brushwood Nemeton at Starwood; its building, its consecration by Isaac Bonewits "in a full ADF Liturgy", the workshop they did before the ceremony, etc. Elsewhere in the book, it says "the Druid "nemeton" (a ritual mound) at Brushwood is designed from reconstructions of ancient Druidic practices". If you read the ENTIRE chapter entitled Shrines of Flame and Silence, you'll find that it's clear that the Nemeton was created by ADF, and that it was intended to be a sacred site used for the same purposes and to as closely as possible be designed after the ancient ones. Here are pictures of it's use by ADF in 1997 [3]. As for the maintainance by ADF, you can go to their website and see a listing for the Nemeton Fund [4].

The other book is a perfectly good source; an interview with the founder and former Arch-Druid of ADF, author of a number of books on Magic and Paganism, in a book published by a legitimate publishing house, mentioning the creation of the nemeton at Brushwood, calling it "a recreation based on our chief artificer's research into the archaeology of Celtic sacred sites", and mentioning the "very powerful ceremonies" they've held there. Both of these books refer to a nemeton in the present tense, not the past tense, as do several official websites of Neo-Druidic organizations. (If you doubt that Neo-Pagan rituals & classes were held there, you could have added a fact tag, and I'd have gotten references to such, or deleted it and just left "Neo-Druidic".)

And Koch's book is Celtic Culture: a Historical Encyclopedia; of COURSE it doesn't mention contemporary nemetons. It probably doesn't mention contemporary Celtic literature, music, or art, either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or are not notable. Asking for a definition like you mentioned is absurd; definitions are not written like that. All you need is one that defines a nemeton without the word "ancient". And I don't expect to find it in a history book.

In other words, the citations I provided say exactly what I claimed they said. Now I never said that three major festivals were held in the nemeton, but that they were held at Brushwood Folklore Center where the nemeton is: Sirius Rising (run by Brushwood itself), the Wellspring Gathering (run by ADF), and the Starwood Festival (run by ACE). I deleted their names so I wouldn't be accused of COI. If you doubt that those festivals are held there, I can give you citations for each, but I don't see the need for it. You can find them in the Brushwood Folklore Center article. I can also give you lists of individual classes and ceremonies which have taken place in the Brushwood Nemeton from the programs of these three events, if you have any interest. Here are a few from events there: [5][6][7][8][9][10][11].

My point is, please don't tell me that you went to the sources I supplied and didn't find support for what was in the article. And the referenced websites go directly to information about the nemetons I mentioned, not just "the organizations' websites", which you would know if you simply clicked on them. (Also, isn't it traditional to ask for better sources rather than simply deleting another editor's work?) I do not intend to edit these facts back into the article, but please don't misrepresent my work. And let's face it; I could provide perfectly good citations for every word I wrote, and you'd still delete the entry if you maintain that nemetons set up by living Druids as part of present-day practice of Celtic spirituality simply don't count, because "nemetons are by definition ancient" and I can't prove (nor do I even believe, or think it necessary) that there is an unbroken chain in the religions of ancient Celts and modern ones.

I just disagree with your definition. A car is a car, even if Ford didn't make it and it wasn't made in Detroit. A nemeton made today based on ancient principles, consecrated to the same gods, is still a nemeton even if it is different in some ways, just like a sacred grove is a sacred grove, a temple is a temple, a cathedral is a cathedral, a ziggurat is a ziggurat, a pyramid is a pyramid, a church is a church, and a synagogue is a synagogue. Of course it's not identical, it's a Neo-Druidic nemeton, but it still fits the definition and can have a place in an article called "nemeton". I happen to find it very interesting that the practice is being revived, and consider a mention of the same to be encyclopedic. Rosencomet (talk) 23:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

As indicated above the sourcing issues are only one of the several reasons this material has been challenged by several editors. It is an important issue: the citation (Pike, p. 62) did not verify that the Brushwood nemeton was used for rituals, workshops, and three important neopagan festivals. Based on your statements it looks like that could have been fixed by rewording and improved citations, if that were the only problem. Another, probably more critical problem is NPOV, specifically undue weight. I have now located several reliable sources, which I plan on working in, that deal with nemetons, and none of them discuss modern Neopagan sites (and the Koch book does in fact deal with both neopaganism and neo-druidism elsewhere). You have provided only one inarguable source that counters this silence - the Pike book - but even here, the book's focus is modern Neopaganism, not historical Celtic religion and culture, and the discussion of the nemeton is rather cursory. I contend that the "Being a Pagan" book is not a "reliable, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", at least for this, and the websites you've provided are largely non-third party or flat-out unusable (ie the Yahoo Groups page). You may disagree with the definition, but we have to go with the reliable sources, and as the sources I've found don't mention neopagan sites in their discussion of nemetons, then neither should we.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Contemporary Nemetons

• A nemeton has been set up at Brushwood Folklore Center in Sherman, New York, the site of three major Neo-Pagan festivals and other Neo-Pagan events. It was created and is maintained by Ar nDraiocht Fein, and it is used for Neo-Druidic and Neo-Pagan rituals and classes
• A nemeton stands on the grounds of Dragonskeep farms, a Neo-Druidic facility maintained by Skip Ellison, Archdruid of Ar nDraiocht Fein.
• The Chiltern Nemeton Grove was founded in the U.K. on the Summer Solstice 2000, situated in the Chiltern Hills in the Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire area. The Clan which founded it is affiliated with the Druid Network ([12]), The British Druid Order ([13]), and the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids ([14])
• Summerland's Stone Circle is the ADF Nemeton of Sonoran Sunrise Grove, ADF, in Tucson, Arizona [15].
• There is a Nemeton at Tredara, the Stone Creed Grove facility in Madison, Ohio.[16][17]

References for this section

It also might be worth mentioning the contemporary use of the term, such as the Church of All Worlds related organization Nemeton[18], the meditation sanctuary in Virginia[19], the Neo-Pagan websites using the name[20][21][22], and other ways the spirit of a nemeton is reflected and/or memorialized. Rosencomet (talk) 15:18, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you should go ahead with this. Currently the article is only about nemetons in a historical context, but I don't see why the article should not also cover contemporary nemetons. Donama (talk)

For all the reasons I gave when we discussed this two years ago. No sources talk about the modern Neo-Pagan spaces that call themselves "Nemetons" in connection with the historical phenomena; including this material would give undue weight to non-notablecurrent events, etc.Cúchullain ^t/c 00:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

If nemetons don't pertain to neopaganism then I agree. Sorry, I've not been part of the back-discussion. I also don't see why the article should be in the neopaganism wikiproject either. Donama (talk) 05:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The gist of it is, the sources on nemeta do not mention the modern Neopagan sites that call themselves "nemetons". The above editor was only able to find one good source that did mention those, but it was a book on Neopaganism, not on nemeta. It didn't establish that the sites were noteworthy to the topic, and moreover doesn't include most of the information he wanted to include. Adding it would introduce weight and sourcing issues (and there were COI issues as well). And yes, it shouldn't be included in the Neopaganism project, thanks for removing it..Cúchullain ^t/c 15:36, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. I hardly think this is the first time novel movements/religions have claimed aspects of history as their own for whatever reason! Donama (talk) 00:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Ha, true enough!Cúchullain ^t/c 12:18, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

One may argue that Christianity claimed aspects of Jewish history as their own for whatever reasons they chose; which you may have any number of opinions of, but it is certainly notable that it does.

And excuse me, but I introduced two books and three organizational websites that do indeed mention modern Nemeta. The notion that these references are not valid because the sources are Neo-Pagan is circular logic; you can't say that references to modern Nemeta are invalid because they don't appear in books about historical Nemeta, since the point is that Nemeta exist in modern times. I still don't understand why the term "Nemeton" must by definition refer only to ancient ones, and I certainly can't accept the notion that since books about historical Nemetons don't mention the modern ones they are not notable. I don't agree that the weight is undue, nor that the current events are non-notable in the context of the article. Perhaps a simple mention that there are modern sacred spaces that have been erected with the name Nemeton and the intent to honor those historical Nemeta, using the citations I offered but without the list of specific examples, would be of more proper weight in your opinion?

However, I really only commented now because of the accusation of COI. Please explain this or take it back. I am not a member of Brushwood, ADF, CAW, or any other of the organizations mentioned above, nor do I consider myself a Druid or Celt, nor do I worship in nor have been involved in the establishment of any modern Nemeton. I merely introduced what I thought were relevant and notable data about the subject of an article, which I have no personal connection to, but have been exposed to information about that I thought expanded the article in a reasonable way. And by the way, the final version of the actual article that did mention modern Nemeta did not mention the name of the THREE, not one, festivals where the Brushwood Nemeton had been used ritually (all three festivals have Wiki articles or are mentioned in Wiki articles), and had no links to anything I am connected to.Rosencomet (talk) 01:53, 20 July 2011 (UTC)