Talk:Nijisanji/Archive 1

Graduations

Nijisanji (particularly its English-speaking branch, as well as what used to be the Indonesian branch) had a plethora of graduations throughout the last year, starting with most recently with the graduation of founding talent Pomu Rainpuff, with other major talents such as Nina Kosaka or Mysta Ryas, having graduated beforehand.

The high amount of graduations has been noticed by some sources discussing them,[1][2] with one of them going as far as an calling it an "exodus". [3] The same source has also covered allegations about Nijisanji being a "black company",[4] as well as fears of a domino effect following previous graduations.[5]

With so many graduations occurring, I believe there should at least be a mention of the topic in the article. Sr. Knowthing ¿señor? 01:18, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe that EVERY graduation should be put at least in the History section,as that is and should be considered as "History" Lightmaxifrvr (talk) 15:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

New Additions Removed

Some new additions included Graduations.

This is when talents and the like, leave the company.

Many pages include former and current members.

Many members have left the agency and should still be cited. The notes about the company firing people for suspicious reasons, should stay here.

"Black Company" usually refers to certain types of companies. The allegations and reasonings have no reason to be removed.

Many public companies have allegations against them on their Wikipedia pages.

The edits calling the company a "Black Company" outright, should be removed. 65.183.108.158 (talk) 20:06, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The edits calling the company a "Black Company" outright, should be re-instated. 46.123.252.157 (talk) 22:33, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

@46.123.252.157 While I get the outrage against Nijisanji, we should wait for more people to come out against them and more reliable sources(not Dextero) to report on it before labeling it as a black company, Additionally, such a thing would be best put under a controversies tab imo. KoP152 (talk) 00:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I mean... it IS kind of silly that page for THE most controversial major VTuber company has, for most of it's existance, had no mention of controversies, no mention of their hilarously bad turnover rate for talents and recorded (several times!) shady tactics, and attempts to add these are for the most part wiped completely within a couple of minutes as 'vandalism' with nothing but praise for the company allowed. All the proof you would realistically need for a halfway decent start to a controversies tab can be found by going to Selen's announcement and seeing screenshots of the Community Notes it has accumulated that were deleted for no good reason (one of them literally pointed out they said they privated the video, then said that Selen saying they privated the video was a lie and slander/libel from her)181.189.25.81 (talk) 02:59, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, none of this matters without a Reliable Source to cite all of this to. I know the drama roiling Nijisanji is indeed notable, but without sources, it’s going to be removed. And no, Dexerto and stuff like animecorner.me or dotesports are not Reliable Sources. Also, calling Nijisanji a “black company” in Wikipedia’s voice, again without any attribution, is not going to fly either and will be removed as vandalism. GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 03:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Allegations against the company should definitely be noted, they should however be listed as allegations until verified. These pages are supposed to be a source for all relevant information, including the bad. 2601:985:4480:5660:F2:A72F:15EE:18B5 (talk) 03:51, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Not how this works. Allegations still have to be cited to Reliable Sources, and you have to keep BLP in mind as well. The ANN source now used in the article is considered an RS, so as long as you cite based off of the information in that, it should be fine.GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 07:36, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

screenshots of the Community Notes that user generated content, which is mostly a no-go as a source for topics like this. – robertsky (talk) 08:52, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I get the outrage.

But, if you want to make a good edit and add valuable tabs.

If you call Nijisanji a black company or place "Black Company" in front of their companies name or groups name, this will result in Admins and the like stepping in.

Nijisanji hides behind NDAs, so most claims are difficult to prove.

But, theres enough claims from current and former members and from those who have worked with the company, to make an allegations page or something similar to it.

Dont make edits calling them a Black Company, outright.

People come here for reliable information and data on things.

That claim is unproven and people aren't adding it properly either.

So, those edits should be removed.

A controversies tab, would probably be fine. They have quite a few of those, and many of them are similar to past occurrences.

Some Twitter posts of fellows who were given NDAs, and a now former member had to pay them out of pocket, because their NDAs had the wrong names on them.

And they company kept on sending the wrong ones.

There's now two cases of that happening, but one was paid.

These were claimed on their Twitter pages. Thus, Twitter would work for primary sources for those accounts.

Sometimes people confuse things with rules regarding reliable sources.

Taking random claims from whoever, would be unreliable. These are artists, those who have worked with Nijisanji.

Nijisanji paid at least one person, thus they'd probably be considered contractors.

Despite this, going on about "Black Company", will anger those who check these pages for facts. If someone wants to edit the page, keep those out.

People may actually look at the edits and consider them. If someone still revokes the edits, talk about it.

Others could lock them out for page vandalism.

Not showing things, which discredit the company, would look bad on Wikipedia. Wikipedia doesn't work for any company and is meant to be unbiased.

And there's good reason to add some of these mentioned things.

While looking through the edits, I did see something about sources being removed for an illegitimate reasoning.

Former talents or members of the company, was the reason.

I believe that the users profile indicated that they likely aren't someone who speaks English as a native language.

In other countries, former talents or members of a company can be seen as biased, or they're just removed as sources - that sort of thing.

Here, thats not the case.

I'd have to go back and check the edits, but I saw a few things which were fine, but got removed and nobody revoked the changes.

I also saw edits which would've been great, not taking the "Black Company" into consideration.

A user also didn't submit what they were adding or changing. This flagged them, I believe.

Bot got them. Admin likely stepped in afterwards.

My point is simple. Just follow the rules when making edits / additions. If you don't, the staff here may become a bit biased and just shut down any changes here, because people are doing more than adding information.

You also need to cite sources and link them to each line, properly.

Another controversy, could be that the company hires its members out as contractors.

Its been leaked by a talent, that the members aren't paid.

They make commissions off of donations during streams. Their merchandise profits are meager and they are likely given a lump sum for the merchandise.

The company mentioned that they'd continue to release Selen's merchandise, even with her terminated and that she had already been paid.

This means, that she likely doesn't get paid per sale or anything.

Other companies don't do this. Similar ones.

Things like that, would beef up a controversies tab, and add a good reason to even have them.

I've simply mentioned these things, so that others can research the mentioned topics, and maybe find proper sources - make a proper edit.

Wikipedia should save unfinished edits.

Just make sure that you know how citing works on here, and how to properly do things. 65.183.108.158 (talk) 13:24, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

In light of recent events

Social media, such as Twitter and YouTube are no reliable sources for any Wikipedia page.

Wikipedia is not a place for you to vent your anger and frustration.

There is no reliable source that labels the corporation as a Black company nor do they cover the current controversy, so I am strongly against including those in the page at the moment.

• In any case, No matter the source: a Wikipedia article should not use the biased language that would suggest a controversial allegation is accurate, and should use unbiased language instead (Provide information about notable allegations, but don't label the company while the truth of allegations are also challenged and controversial). Twitter is not the publisher of any article but a website that distributes articles posted by various publishers who are mostly unknown individuals, But there are also a few reliable publishers who do post there: It is the reputation of the actual publisher of information that need to be ascertained to assess reliability, and not just that of their current hosting provider. Even from Twitter there don't appear to be postings regarding this from an account where the reliability and independence could be established, however.. as far as I can tell it is currently Not yet Verifiable that allegations against the company are notable. --Mysidia (talk) 13:34, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The page is now semi-protected, that should prevent most of the vandalism we've seen in the last few days. Anime King (talk) 07:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2024

In § Controversy, replace

Per ''Polygon'', "Nijisanji followed up with a second statement concerning the termination of Selen, sharing that it believes that the decision will negligibly affect its finances. This is the first time the agency has gone to such lengths to defend the termination of one of its talents. (Polygon reached out to ANYCOLOR for comment on the situation, but our request for an interview was declined.) 

with

Per ''Polygon'', "Nijisanji followed up with a second statement concerning the termination of Selen, sharing that it believes that the decision will negligibly affect its finances. This is the first time the agency has gone to such lengths to defend the termination of one of its talents."

to add a missing quotation mark and remove the part in parentheses since the company declining an interview doesn't seem very important to mention.

(I think that section overall needs some rewording to reduce the amount of directly quoting the sources and make it more readable, but I don't have specific ideas for how to word it, so this is not part of the edit request.) 91.129.100.162 (talk) 13:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done – robertsky (talk) 20:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Page Revisions Hidden

All of the page revisions I made yesterday have been marked hidden from the version history citing copyright violation. I'm not sure how my edits could have violated the copyright policy and would appreciate an explanation. If my edits do not, in fact, violate the copyright policy, I would ask for the records of them to be restored. Thank you. Rockman1159 (talk) 05:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

@Rockman1159 It is not your edits, but earlier ones that contains text that were lifted from a news article. Since your revisions also contains the copyrighted text as a result, they were also hidden, up to the revision where the copyright material was removed/reworded/minimised, that also include some of my own edits as well. – robertsky (talk) 11:59, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I see. Thank you for the explanation. I was worried I had done something wrong. Rockman1159 (talk) 15:26, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Structure

So last night, I tried adding info on the current controversy, but didn't realize there was already a now-referenced section covering it, since it was separate from the section on the history of the company and far further down the page. I did check the history and notice some stuff had been removed (unsourced, I think) but somehow missed it was already a separate section. I think it would make more sense to list the controversy under history from a chronological perspective, but it also seems like the rather long section may need some clean-up in of itself, since there's a lot of one-sentence long paragraphs and also stuff that solely lists debut dates, which I think would be better covered under the liver list (like including debut date with each wave) rather than just throwing dates around without much further context. Iostn (talk) 18:10, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 February 2024

Can we please remove the controversy section or at least limit it to one paragraph and put it into the history section. It has became a joke on multiple sites and does not fit the criteria for something that should be on this website. In my opinion this qualifies as undue weight as it is the only piece of vtubing history that is in depth. We reference jokes on Twitter accounts and random people on message boards and a former vtuber who has no relation to the situation. Businessential (talk) 02:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template.

You seem less concerned with the integrity of the article and more concerned with protecting the reputation of Nijisanji. As this is a controversial edit, you should have gotten consensus before even posting this request. Rockman1159 (talk) 03:26, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

It’s too big and it qualifies for undue weight. Those last two paragraphs for it are the greatest offenders of this. They contain info that is of minor relevance to the thing. We are bringing up a former vtuber who worked there over a year before this incident and a joke posted from a country that the company got rid of thier branch. Businessential (talk) 03:57, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

If I was protecting the or of the company I would’ve said, “add Goldman Sachs rating the company as a buy (https://en.p2y.jp/goldman-sachs-maintains-investment-decision-on-anycolor-after-vtuber-selen-tatsukis-terminated/) but I did not as it has no long standing relevance to the company. I could’ve also linked messages from the same forum that support the company from citation 58 but I did not as yahoo finance message forums should not play a part in any article, especially if we cite no one. Businessential (talk) 04:05, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The Yahoo Finance forums are cited in the Polygon article. As you can see from the in-text citation in the wiki page. Rockman1159 (talk) 04:25, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not believe that message forums should be able to be cited as sources. We are opening up a Pandora’s box that should remain closed in regards to secondary reporting of sources. Why is the Twitter page also cited as it is a joke/opinion. Does that mean we can cite anyone else on Twitter? Businessential (talk) 04:36, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

As I said, the Yahoo forums are cited in the Polygon article. They would not be valid otherwise. Polygon is a reliable source. WP:RSPSS We are in agreement that the Indonesian Wikipedia posts are superfluous. Rockman1159 (talk) 04:41, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

can we also do something regarding the zaion/sayu part. It’s like saying that a wrestler under a mask is not that wresteler. Now it is quoted as them being separate people in the polygon article but that is because the author is a vtuber himself and follows the “kayfabe” of vtubing. Businessential (talk) 04:59, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I removed the section referencing the posts made by Indonesian Wikipedia. I also edited the section about Zaion. I'm unsure whether or not the changes to the Zaion section should remain as there are no sources to cite on them being the same person and even Sayu herself did not claim to be Zaion. Only claiming that she was highly familiar with Zaion's situation. We both know that they're the same, but the legal fiction must remain. Rockman1159 (talk) 05:17, 12 February 2024 (UTC)