Talk:Onogurs/Archive 1

Archive 1

Who were they?

SO this article doesnlt actually state who the Onogurs were. Are they one of the Bulgar tribes ? Or an independent Nomadic peoples ?? Hxseek (talk) 23:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

They were 10 tribe or more.

Kindly sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) — LlywelynII 06:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

They were proto-Bulgarian tribes generally identified as Turks. The modern Bulgarians are a mix of them, plus many other people already living in the region who were administered by them after the formation of Bulgaria. — LlywelynII 06:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

But Magyar is unrelated to Bulgar ... therefore ...? HammerFilmFan (talk) 08:55, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

We have to be careful, Magyars contained Turk elements...Fakirbakir (talk) 13:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Khazar correspondence

"According to other records, Togarmah is regarded as the ancestor of the Turkic-speaking peoples. For example, in King Joseph's Reply, the Khazar monarch writes:

"You ask us also in your epistle: "Of what people, of what family, and of what tribe are you?" Know that we are descended from Japhet, through his son Togarmah. I have found in the genealogical books of my ancestors that Togarmah had ten sons. These are their names: the eldest was Ujur, the second Tauris, the third Avar, the fourth Uauz, the fifth Bizal, the sixth Tarna, the seventh Khazar, the eighth Janur, the ninth Bulgar, the tenth Sawir."

(These are the mythical founders of tribes that once lived in the neighborhood of the Black and Caspian Seas).

• 1. Agiôr
• 2. Tirôsz
• 3. Avôr
• 4. Ugin
• 5. Bizel
• 6. Tarna
• 7. Kazar
• 8. Zagur
• 9. Balgôr
• 10. Szavvir (szabir).

See togarmah and khazars. The khazars and bulgars and others vary rule the scytas heritge territory.

Cooool. Now if only you had signed your post and included a source. =P — LlywelynII 06:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Wait. Turkic?

Isn't the modern Turkish plural -ler/-lar? So ten arrows would be "On oklar"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.240.219 (talk) 11:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Good question for a non Turkish speaker. In Turkish plural endings only apply to indefinite numbers. Definite numbers don't take plural ending at all. For example Turkish word for city is kent, indefinite number of cities is kentler with plural ending. But when the number is definite than no plural ending is used, ie ten cities is on kent and not on kentler. Thus there is nothing wrong with on ok. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Merge with Western Turkic Khaganate

Merge with Western Turkic Khaganate?--Joostik (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

There's a better procedure for doing that at WP:MERGE and Help:Merging. Anyway, looking at that page they do seem to be covering the same material from a Turkish perspective (WP:POV fork), so a merge seems like a good idea. I'll move this conversation over there and set everything up. — LlywelynII 06:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely, Onogur is nothing but the indigenous Western Gokturk language term for what we call the Western Turkic Khaganate.

Merge with Old Great Bulgaria

Was discussed here. The result of the discussion was not to merge. — LlywelynII 06:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Bulgar

I had read that the word BULGAR is from the ancient root BULGA- which is in modern Turkish BULA-, therefore, this would explain the name BULGAR to mean "MIXED". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fortusxxx (talk • contribs) 23:22, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Bula and Bulga has nothing in common. The etymology suggest the origin of the root "bulgh" with stressed gh passed to g. I heard that Turkey actually comes from that Turks like to eat turkey for Christmas. Is that right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.143.249.85 (talk) 10:54, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Merge from Utigurs

• Oppose it would be better to merge Utigurs with Bulgars. The main reason for the suggestion seems to be a due to confusion of Onogurs with Unogundurs because both the Utigur Article and Onogur article are badly written and therefore somewhat misleading. Unogundurs refers to the Wends while they were under the control of the On-Oq Western Turkic Khaghanate. Onogurs are documented as still living in the Ukraine in the 8th century long after Asparukh had led the Wend and/or Utigur Bulgars in 680AD to establish the first Bulgarian Empire in Thrace following the Battle of Ongal. Chouvrtou (talk) 12:03, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support along with the person who initially suggested this. Utigur article has been re-written to take into account Chouvrtou's suggestions. However, there seems no source to suggest that the Onogur of the Ukraine in the 8th century were anything other than the easternmost reaches of the Utigur state.2.97.137.43 (talk) 03:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

By the way, Utigur is already plural. no need for -s. 2.97.137.43 (talk) 01:44, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. There is no reference to reliable sources to substantiate the merger proposal. The use of a plural with "-s" is quite common in academic works ([1]).
• Oppose. The Kutigurs, Utigurs as well Onogurs are all different tribes with different etymological derivation, and all are substantially mentioned in historical records separately from each other, before Kubrat's and Bulgars time, and the Onogurs are not a coin term for Utigur Huns/Bulgars, yet they were later related with the Bulgars. I am currently in the process of writing the related articles. There's no need for any merge.--Crovata (talk) 13:43, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

The Onogunduri or Unogunduri present a new difficulty. Before Kubrat’s time we never hear of them, but during the next few years the Imperial writers use their name, the Huns’, and the Bulgars’ indiscriminately to describe the same race. It is possible that the word is a composite affair, a blend of the Huns and the Bulgars, invented by the source from whom Theophanes and Nicephorus both drew, in vague confusion with memories of such early Bulgar tribes as the Onoguri and Burugundi. http://www.promacedonia.org/en/sr/sr_1_1.htm, p. 15

Obviously, this is a coin term to describe Utigur Huns/Bulgars. The two articles should be merged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PavelStaykov (talk • contribs) 22:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)