Talk:Palestine Liberation Organization/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Lying about what the source says

The last three words of "Its stated goal was the "liberation of Palestine" through armed struggle." are not true: Nowhere in the charter does it say only through armed struggle, and most of the charter indicates seeking peace, eg: "Article 21: The Palestinian people believes in the principles of justice, freedom, sovereignty, self-determination, human dignity, and the right of peoples to practice these principles. It also supports all international efforts to bring about peace on the basis of justice and free international cooperation." The next paragraph refers to the charter as a "a combative anti-Zionist statement," which clearly violates NPOV. The rest of the next section is also POV: the only paragraphs of the charter called out are anti-Israel ones, and the forward looking parts are completely ignored. Also, of course, are the complete lies: "The PLO has always labelled the Palestinian people as Arabs." Even though the charter says "Article 7: Jews of Palestinian origin are considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully and loyally in Palestine." This article fails elementary fact-checking. Mcdruid (talk) 22:29, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm all for verifiable info in our articles. I notice you don't have that many edits although since you have been here for a good while, you should know that we need sources for edits to the articles. Do you have any that would support what you say above?Selfstudier (talk) 23:07, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

In general I have found that many of the articles on the Palestine-Israeli situation to be subtly or blatantly biased, to the extent that even a focus on only one portion reveals too many problems to be simply corrected.

The text of the original charter is here: https://www.marxists.org/subject/israel-palestine/plo/1964-charter.htm. My quotation is taken from that. As I said, it does not mention “armed struggle,” nor should the words “liberation of Palestine” be in quotes, as it implicitly calls it into question.

The section on “Ideology” confuses all the charters together in a manner that is not clear. But there are other problems with that section.

The sentence: “The ideology of the PLO was formulated in the founding year, 1964, in the Palestinian National Covenant.[20] The document is a combative anti-Zionist statement dedicated to the "restoration of the Palestinian homeland".” Is not only blatantly POV (“combative?”), it is also false (combative) and even the quotation is false, it really says: “We, the Palestinian Arab people, based on our right of self-defense and the complete restoration of our lost homeland- a right that has been recognized by international covenants and common practices including the Charter of the United Nations-and in implementation of the principles of human rights, and comprehending the international political relations, with its various ramifications and dimensions, and considering the past experiences in all that pertains to the causes of the catastrophe, and the means to face it,“

Although that section then makes a nod to the 1996 revision, the rest of the section conflates 1968 and 1996 versions. It also focuses entirely on anti-zionist provisions: is there nothing else in the charter?

“At the core of the PLO's ideology is the belief that Zionists had unjustly expelled the Palestinians from Palestine and established a Jewish state in place under the pretext of having historic and Jewish ties with Palestine.” This is POV.

Then the section calls out three specific portions of the charter:

“Article 2 of the Charter states that ″Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit″,[21] meaning that there is no place for a Jewish state. This article was adapted in 1996 to meet the Oslo Accords.[22]“ It was not “adapted,” it was nullified.

Why does the section detail Article 20, if it was nullified?

Article 3 was also at least partially nullified.

Following up, the section says “The PLO has always labelled the Palestinian people as Arabs.” More accurately, it should say “Palestinian Arabs” as that is the terminology used in the charter, except where it refers to them as “Palestinians” (see articles #4, 6, 7, 10, etc. in the 1964 charter and 5, 6, 7, 8, etc. in the 1968 charter).Mcdruid (talk) 02:50, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Two points raised here appear to require action. I haven't looked at the others yet:

• The source for the phrase " through armed struggle" is unclear from the body. The first mention is in the sentence "Its stated goal was the "liberation of Palestine" through armed struggle". The source for this statement is the 1964 charter which does not explicitly mention "armed struggle" as far as I can see. The 1964 charter mentions "mobiliz[ing] its military, spiritual and material potentialities". It is also unclear as to why that particular tactic is singled out for mention in the first sentence of the lead.
• There appears to be quite a lot of editorial commentary in the article. The use of the term "combative" is one example. Another is the sentence "It also has a tactical element, as to keep the backing of Arab states", which is an editorial commentary on the Palestinian Basic Law.

Burrobert (talk) 03:25, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, it appears that the "cobative" aspect was introduced in 1968 revision: [1] [2]:

Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

— Article 9

Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory.

— Article 10

“WarKosign” 06:52, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

We do link to the 1968 charter in the article but don't use it as a source for the term "combative" or the term "armed struggle". We also don't qualify the term "armed struggle" by saying it applied from 1968 until (I think 1993). We say in the lead that the PLO was "founded in 1964 with the purpose of the "liberation of Palestine" through armed struggle". We say in the body that the PLO's stated goal when it was founded "was the "liberation of Palestine" through armed struggle". As I mentioned earlier, armed struggle does not appear in the 1964 charter. This is one issue that needs to be addressed. Another is the plethora of editorial commentary based on primary sources, namely the various versions of the Palestinian Charter. Burrobert (talk) 07:30, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

There are more than two points here: at the very least it should note that Article 3 was (at least) partially nullified. However bias permeates the whole of the sections that I looked over: biases of exclusion, inclusion, as well as language and even outright falsehoods ("Palestinian Arabs")

Note that I haven't even bothered with the rest of the Article. If it follows from this small sampling, it is likely just as biased. But this bias pervades many of the articles on this subject, as I have noted before: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2014_Gaza_War#Propaganda_for_Israel?, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Second_Intifada#Riddled_with_implicit_bias) Mcdruid (talk) 22:22, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Armed struggle

"all devoted to armed struggle against Zionism or Israeli occupation" heavy POV language here. can we at least get quotation marks? MoshiachNow (talk) 03:50, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

I found a missing source -- can someone with edit privileges for this article add it for me?

This article contains two citations to "Smith, op. cit.,", but never expands on the precise book being cited or which Smith wrote it. I tracked down the edit that added these and it is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Palestine_Liberation_Organization&diff=prev&oldid=10734671. As you can see, these citations came from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War page, where the citations are appropriately attributed to:

Charles D. Smith, Palestine and the Arab Israeli Conflict

Could someone add this source into the first of these two citations?

• Smith, op. cit., p. 357
• Smith, op. cit., 376

Additionally, could someone add to the Bibliography section:

• Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, fourth edition, Charles D. Smith (2001) (ISBN 0-312-20828-6) (paperback)

Thanks! Gkroth (talk) 23:30, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Update - Isral had left Gaza in 2005

hello, this sentence needs an immideate update!: "and now only seeks Arab statehood in the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) that have been militarily occupied by Israel since the 1967 Arab–Israeli War"

please ADD the fact that: Israel had taken out it's Military forces from the Gaza strip on 2005. it happend in the "Israeli disengagement from Gaza" - you have a topic about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza. 147.235.196.59 (talk) 13:11, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Not done. The majority of sources regard Gaza as occupied regardless of the Israeli disengagement. Selfstudier (talk) 13:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I would argue that the sources in that article are outdated and inaccurate today. However, for the purposes of THIS article, it would be far easier to avoid debate entirely by making the clearer and more specific statement that the PLO "now only seeks Arab statehood along pre-1967 borders." Oakling (talk) 01:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)