Talk:Power Forward (basketball)

• power forward is the player that stays forward in the game.
• Not sure what that means, but is this "Goro" thing for real? I've never heard it in reference to basketball ever... is it a European term? Just curious. Davis21Wylie 4 December 2005, 14:31 (UTC)
• Well, I'm French and I've never heard that before. Besides, what is the connection between the Mortal Kombat character and a PF ? Maybe a hoax.Mrbluesky 21 December 2005, 21:56 (UTC)

Supposed evolution of a power forward's role

I am removing the following sentences: "In the past, power forwards were expected to have more of an impact on defense and rebounding than the center, leaving scoring to other players; however, today, with the emergence of skilled power forwards like Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Bosh, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, the power forward is asked to shoulder more of a scoring role and somewhat less of a defensive role than the center." This seems utterly false to me--especially the part about the PF being more of a defensive role than the Center. Take Karl Malone, McHale, Barkley--or even old timers like Pettit and Hayes--all were offensive powerhouses. This is not a recent development. You could perhaps could say that modern power forwards tend to rely a bit more on finesse, but you can't say that the PFs of the past were not expected to shoulder the offensive load. I would like to know if anyone disagrees.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 15:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Before Bill Russell, it was PFs that were asked to offer defensive help. The Bill Russell page, a FA, talks about how he evolved the role of Center from offensive-oriented to defensive-oriented with his blocks and quickness. I assume that the natural progression then would be that the PFs were allowed to become more of a scoring threat. However, if it's arguable/debatable and there's no source, leave it out. 129.120.244.97 (talk) 03:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

There has been an evolution, or perhaps more accurately a shift or divergence, but it has more to do with the finesse spoken of. Past great power forwards like those mentioned were not known as outside or three point shooter. Karl Malone took 310 three pointers in his career; Charles Barkley shot .266 from outside the arc or his career. In 05-06 power forward types like Donyell Marshall, Antoine Walker, Vladimir Radmanovic, Nowitzki, Matt Bonner, Mehmet Okur, Troy Murphy and Charlie Villanueva all took 200+ in the season. I've added this to the article for now.

Hold the phone . . . Power Forwards usually do not excel at playing with their backs to the basketball. They usually play on the weak side of the court. One exception, of course, is Tim Duncan--who I would argue is playing the Center position while being listed at Power Forward. The Spurs "listed" centers are usually playing the role of power forward. dinobrya

The Two Types of Power Forward

Power Forward is a term that has been around since the 1960s, showing the evolution and specialization in the game of basketball. Small Forward, Point Guard and Shooting Guard are similar terms. A power forward is typically a player who helps compensate for duties his team's center cannot perform or in addition to them. A power forward is usually his teams's second biggest guy on the floor, after the center. The first type of power forward is the offensive or scoring type. Since Bill Russell, the emphasis at center has usually been defensive primarily, though some centers have starred at both ends of the court. So, the power forward becomes the big offensive threat near the hoop in that case. Karl Malone is a great example. Given that the NCAA is no longer turning out centers who play well with their backs to the basket, this type of power forward is very key to the current NBA. Dirk Nowitzki, Amare Stoudimire and Tim Duncan are great current examples. Some of these are also considered forward-centers. The second type is the defensive or banger type. In the 1950s, these were common in the NBA. Typically, they do 'dirty work' or 'blue-collar work' that allow star centers to operate more effectively. Their emphasis is defense and rebounding. Vern Mikklesen may have been the first one in the NBA for Laker star George Mikan. Dennis Rodman fits this model. Maurice Lucas was a great one for Portland's Bill Walton. These are not as common today because there are few centers today that are outstanding enough offensively to need that kind of help. Drew Gooden of Cleveland, and Udonis Haslem of Miami are considered current examples. Few of this type spend any additional time at center since they are not typically scorers.

Notable power forwards, past and present

For these reasons, the "present" should be included: -It is included on all of the other pages with basketball positions. The back-and-forth "objective vs. bias" and unattributed back-and-forth doesn't go on in the other pages, only here. Let's keep this uniform. -People can easily see examples of the position without being archived to another page.

Now, I believe that it should be proportional the amount of names are included. I don't like the extraneous names put on there any more than anyone else. For example, a Cavaliers fan is more likely to put Anderson Varajao as "notable" than someone who despises the Cavs, but a neutral person would NOT think him to be a notable player. Maybe a couple of examples is all that is needed, but no matter how objective it really is on the whole, it does need to be shown.

As for the more objective edit, which was putting in the NBA's 50 Greatest Players of All Time and telling which ones were power forwards, I like that. I encourage someone to do that also for the other positions. I don't think any "notable past" players should be put in there, at least unless someone comes up with a list of Hall of Fame PFs, then those can be added.

This is a compromise, and I hope that it can remain as such. Notable players should be included but limited, and the 50 Greatest Players list is certainly welcome and helps to keep these things in check. Please make edits accordingly, and also to do so responsibly. 24.209.175.115 06:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The claim or the implicaiton that the power forwards on the list are more notable than players not on the list has to be atrributed. I'm deleting the list (again) until we come up with an attributable criteria. I have a suggestion: active power forwards who have been named to the all NBA first team at least once or who have been named to the All-Star multiple times--something along thes lines should be acceptable.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 03:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

If some critieria is used, it has to be used on all position pages. And this is not necessarily fair, for there are only five NBA first-teamers every year, and All-Star selections are a hybrid of what fans think they know (which is mostly by the media) and what the media thinks it knows. A player like Michael Redd is easily a notable shooting guard because of attributions of having the purest shot in the game, or quickest release in the game, and at different times holding different NBA records and ranks on the NBA's points per game leaders. However, he only has one All-Star selection, as other years he has been injured at the time of the All-Star game. Also, he often gets overlooked because he plays in a small market on a .500 team. But these things don't make him any less notable, as he is a prime example of the shooting guard position. He is a notable (fairly recognizable) player, and he exemplifies the position well, yet he would not meet your criteria. Other players may have been good position players ten years ago, but now are less important and less recognizable. Therefore, they are not notable present/current players because, at the present, they are less notable. The only thing I can think of is to take the top players for each position by efficiency rating. Also, your method does not account for rookies or second year players, unless any one of them is fortunate enough to be All-NBA 1st Team (which none of them are). 24.209.175.115 03:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I really need to source this crap. what a bunch of bull. ever watch the NBA? serously, dirk is the reigning MVP, Duncan has four rings, Wallase has two, and KG's been to ten all-star games. Black Harry (Highlights|Contribs) 01:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you do need to source this crap. See WP:A. And even if you provided sources for the feats described above, none of them would speak to the fact that the PF is "notable" in some objective sense. That's why, as I've stated below, "notable" isn't the best qualifier for adding players to a list of the best active power forwards.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 01:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Every PF in the NBA is notable to some degree (at least according to Wikipedia's definition of the word). This is yet another reason why creating a list of "notable" PFs in a bad idea. Instead, if you insist on creating some kind of list which presents the elite of NBA power forwards, use some kind of specific criteria to create this list; we should probably avoid the word "notable" altogether for the purposes of lists like these. Replace it with something like "List of active NBA Power Forwards who have been named to the All-NBA First Team" or anything else attributable that editors can agree on.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 01:33, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

If the other positions can't include the lists Why can't power forward? If you know NBA you know who is notable. Stop deleting the lists they will give examples of good power forwards currently playing okay. Brave warrior 17:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Notables should be included. If they are notable then people should know them. Brave warrior 18:00, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

How do you define "notable"? They're notable just because you know them? You're using a flawed argument; sure, you may know these players, but there are other people that know of other players that you haven't listed. And there are other people that know of more players that aren't listed, and so on and so forth. If this trend continues, then every power forward not only in the NBA, but in every professional league will be listed. I suggest we stop using arbitrary criterion and omit the list altogether. If you have a desire to list a player, create a new wikipedia article and use objective criteria suggested by TFMWNCB and stop filling this page up with excess information.75.183.24.180 23:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

If you watch the NBA like me you will know the notable players and the criteria is they went to the All-Star or in the All-NBA teams, won MVPs or lead the team to win a champion, rookie of the year or famous for any other reasons such as good defence, good skills of dunking, assists... The list can let people easily see some famous players in that position without having to go to another page. These lists ARE NOT original research and should DEFINITELY be included Brave warrior 15:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the edits you just made, you are making some pretty big contradictions.

• You removed Antawn Jamison, which by your own criteria of "they went to the All-Star", he belongs there.
• You added Yi Jialian, who hasn't won any award in the NBA (let alone even played a single NBA game yet), which fails your own criteria of doing anything significant.

If you intend on putting a list, give a reason to how the list is created. Don't just say "some famous players". Famous is a relative term; famous to who and where? Just because I think Othella Harrington is pretty famous doesn't mean he belongs on here. You also can't use your own experience as a reason. By saying things like "If you watch the NBA like me", you are in essence conceding that you are doing original research. Lastly, be inclusive; if you are going to list players that have won MVPs, list every player that has won an MVP. 75.183.24.180 20:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• I agree completely with the above comment. An encyclopedia shouldn't be setting criteria on which PG is "notable", when they're all notable. Corpx 17:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Lists of "notable" players in the position articles has been a problem for a long time. Let talk about why, in detail.

Adding players to a list of notable players based on your opinion (and not a source) is original research. Including OR is expressly against Wikipedia policy. Everyone has different opinions about who is good, who isn't, who's overrated and so on, *especially* in sports. No group of editors will EVER agree on who the most notable players at a position are. Just look through the history of the position articles. You will see that most of the edits are users removing players from and adding players to "notable" lists. It's pointless, and it'll never end. I won't even bother to get into the raft of other policies that "notable" players lists violate.

CorpX is not a rogue user as Black Harry suggested on the WikiProject, he's just enforcing Wikipedia policy like we all should be. A Train^talk 17:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Duncan is a Center, not a Power Forward. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Princeton Kobe (talk • contribs) 04:25, 4 May 2009 (UTC)