Talk:Princess Tutu/Archive 2

Ahiru vs Duck..

Ok, anyone who is watching or looks at the history would see someone just changed everything from Akiru to Duck. Now granted, Duck is the official English name, but it seems almost the same argument at color vs colour -- the choise of the person who originally wrote the majority should be respected, though maybe there's a policy on this? I haven't looked at the anime project to see yet (I'm about to), but I figure the sooner after the edit this is brought up, the better. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 20:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I reverted this edit per the discusion at WP:Anime. The NA version sold badly, to the point where the release was nearly cancelled. The majority of fans of this series would recognize Ahiru as Ahiru, not as "Duck". Kyaa the Catlord 22:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Have any source on "the majority of fans"? For all we know, more people may know her name as Duck. Even if it sold badly, it still may have been seen in English by more people who bought the R1 release than otherwise. However, I'll agree that Ahiru should be kept for three reasons:

1) Respecting original writer's choice (as Melodia said).

2) Ahiru is official in original Japanese materials where the names of other characters are made foreign (such as Neko-sensei becoming "Mr. Cat" and "Herr Katze").

3) From what I've heard, "Ahiru" is kept in the ADV's manga translation.

--EmperorBrandon 00:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahiru should not be kept for one reason (as mentioned in the staff commentary of the first Princess Tutu disc): The word "Ahiru" means "Duck" in Japanese, and is not a name. Calling someone Ahiru in Japan would be just as silly as calling someone Duck in the States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.139.39 (talk) 01:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It's still her name, even if it's not a 'real' one. Melodia isn't a real name either, but noone would think to call me Melody instead just because that's the English version. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 03:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Or to put it another way, just because Ahiru is a silly name doesn't mean it isn't her name. After all, it's the ones her classmates use. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Revisit

After looking at the discussion here, I was under the impression that "Ahiru" was the spelling that we were going with in this article. Is that not true? Am I missing something? (Whichever one is chosen, though, IMHO it needs to be explained which one it is and why, to prevent the edit warring Melodia is currently engaging in without discussion.) Kerochan no Miko (talk) 01:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Now I'm confused at myself. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 03:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The English name should be used, and the Translation and Japanese name should be noted. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 16:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Why? Kerochan no Miko (talk) 19:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Per our Anime and Manga manual of style, and Wikipedia guidelines regarding names, we use the official English name for the primary form of the series (the anime), which is Duck in the English release per the subtitles and the dubbed version. While we may disagree with the company's choice to use Duck instead of Ahiru, since Duck is what they used, it is what must be used here as we are the English Wikipedia. For each character name, however, we do note the original Japanese names in the series and we note their name in the manga. AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

For clarity: this isn't just a WikiProject Anime and Manga decision: it was inherited from the guidelines of WP:MOS-JP on how to render Japanese names. Namely, if there's an official English version, use that (after noting the original form, of course). —Quasirandom (talk) 22:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you - I appreciate the clarification. Kerochan no Miko (talk) 00:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Well that is silly. You should use the original Japanese names and note the English names. Because the Japanese names are the original names. The English aren't the original you should stay with what's original. 71.142.208.226 (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)Cardinal Raven

This isn't the Japanese Wikipedia, its the English one. Per our MoS and Wikipedia naming conventions, we use the official English names. The original Japanese names are included, but we use the English for all mentions.AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

America didn't make the anime. Japan did. So you should leave the way the original authors had it. You're giving more credit to Americans when all they did was license the anime so that way Americans who don't want to watch their anime in Japanese can watch it.71.142.208.226 (talk) 20:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)Cardinal Raven

But this is the English language Wikipedia, which means that articles are about the form that English-speaking readers encounter -- which is the translated version. With, of course, an indication of the original forms of names. If you disagree with this guideline, may I suggest that you take this up over at the guidelines for writing about all things Japanese? -- because the rule doesn't apply to just this work. Indeed, it's for anything originally created or published in another language, of which that is just one application. —Quasirandom (talk) 22:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) We know who made the anime. However, this is the ENGLISH encyclopedia. We give fair coverage to both sides, but we use the names that are used in the Englishes. And your last statement is just pure false because I watch ALL of my anime in Japanese, which is part of 99% of anime releases in the US. Only a few companies, most notably 4Kids, try to pretend the series didn't come from Japan. AnmaFinotera (talk) 22:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

And in the end you don't give the right credit to the person who created the anime. Its like saying Fred, the next door neighbor with a picture of the Mona Lisa, painted the Mona Lisa instead of Leonardo Da Vinci. Even if its an ENGLISH encyclopedia you should leave the names the way the original author intended them to. I watch 100% anime in Japanese. I cannot stand English acting. They don't pronounce the names right and they change the names because they can't say the names right. 71.142.208.226 (talk) 01:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)Cardinal Raven

That's your view, even if its at least partially incorrect. We will continue to follow Wikipedia guidelines and policies here, which means going with ADV's decision to use Duck instead of Ahiru, which is a valid change for this series. AnmaFinotera (talk) 02:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Why then, might I add, does the English language encyclopedia entry for Sailor Moon refer to Usagi as Usagi rather than the translation of her name, Rabbit? Or as her English name, Serena? Sailor Moon is a more popular franchise and that seems to be the only real difference here to me. Both names were apparently changed through American licensing and dubbing, but only one article is subject to a debate on the illogical translation of a name. The other is comfortably using the original Japanese name. Sanyuhime (talk) 08:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

'Rabbit' isn't Usagi's name in any English adaptation. Duck IS Ahiru's name in its English adaptation. As for Usagi vs. Serena? Well honestly I dunno, but perhaps one thing to consider is that not all of Sailor Moon was adapted into English. I'm sure there's been plenty of debate on SM's page (I'm sure including "omg the dub is a different show !#$%@#%") but I haven't read any of it...I think I'll go take a peek. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 10:52, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

There is, as Melodia has partially pointed out, a big difference. We aren't translating Ahiru to Duck. That was the choice the English licensor of the series used. As per WP:MOS-AM, we only consider the official English names in deciding which to do. Her official English release name in the primary work is Duck, not Ahiru. For Sailor Moon, there are three English release. Now, one could argue that the SM articles should use "Bunny" (not "Rabbit") as it is the official English name in the manga, the primary work. However, the anime series is considered to be the one that is most well in the English speaking world, having been released in English first, available the longest, and the one most frequently mentioned in the English sources. In the edited dub version, her name is Serena, while the unedited anime release uses "Usagi." In the case of massively edited subs versus a subsequent unedited release, we will generally use the official names from the unedited release, while the edited names and changes made in the edited version are appropriately noted in the main article and the character list. This is in keeping with the MoS. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:25, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay... lets not stop at duck and bunny. Sakura's name in CCS should be changed to "Cherry Blossom" too, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.132.131.44 (talk) 18:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

No. Sakura's name is Sakura in the official English releases. Such comments are totally unhelpful. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"Ahiru" is not a name, it's a word. I don't think any parents in Japan would even think of naming their daughter "Ahiru." The character doesn't even really have a name, just a species. Instead of "Sakura" or "Usagi," the better comparison would be "Neko-sensei." Or any of the times characters refer to an ahiru, as in the tori -- should those be left untranslated as well?
It's probably "Ente" anyway. --Shay Guy (talk) 06:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

We will use the official English names. Per ADV her name is Duck. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 15:54, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Consistency?

Currently, Duck is down as Ahiru, whereas Mr. Cat is down as Mr. Cat. I won't take a side on the Jap/Eng argument on the 'anthropomorphic names', but since these two characters have these two names for the same reason, they should be consistent one way or another I think. 143.239.1.153 (talk) 10:41, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

She should be down as Duck unless someone changed it (again) and I missed it. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, my fault. I didn't realize she should be down as Duck when I made edits to the article. - carolyn⁸¹ (user • talk) 15:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

No worries. Not sure when it was changed, but someone must have snuck the edit in months ago. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 16:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

A curious thing about the official subs is they often switch between Ahiru and Duck.70.144.196.8 (talk) 21:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Can you point to a specific episode showing that because I don't remember seeing it switch in any of them. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 21:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I think they call her "Duck" in one of the first few episodes, but use "Ahiru" most of the rest of the time. --Shay Guy (talk) 06:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a copy of the official English version to hand, but are you sure they're talking to/about Duck as an individual and not as a generic duck? Andrensath (talk) 09:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Possible Sources

• Anime On DVD reviews can provide information for reception or criticism of Princess Tutu. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 19:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep...this one is on my to-do list, soon as I finish up with some others. I have a couple of anime/manga encycs that should also provide good details, particular with production (if Tutu is in there, which I think it will be in at least the newest one I have). :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed some unsourced statements about Chris Patton taking liberties with the dub. For somereason my edit log didn't note my edit. That statement was speculation as to whether or not he had decided to take liberties with the recording to the dub. I could not verify this. If it can be cited, it can be integrated back into the article. Though really additional changes in dialog in the localization process is common place, and often not the decision of the voice actors. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 19:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with all of the removals you've done so far. This article was in really bad shape and needed it. I have to write a paper this week, but I'm gonna try and get some stuff expanded and work on moving the chars and eps out to properly formatted list articles during this next week or two. AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm shying away from editing actual content concerning the storyline as I'm not expertly familiar. Removing obvious original research (see below) and rewording various sections to read more encyclopedic as opposed to conversational. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 21:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Other Characters

Really, I admit my original complaint was "Why is Femio not on here?" but... perhaps there should a section or some sort of mention of more secondary/minor characters? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.37.216 (talk) 21:11, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

In general, minor characters are not notable enough for mention here. The character section will eventually be split off into a proper list, at which point some of those characters will likely be included. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 21:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Article Cleanup and Improvement

I'm going to start attempting to bring this article up to par, since Princess Tutu is one of my favorite animes and I want it to have a well done entry. Unfortunately I am a complete wiki newbie, so expect things to be slow. If anyone else still actually visits this page, feel free to help out. I'll document all my changes as I consider/make them, so if you think I'm doing something wrong, let me know. Mad 212 (talk) 23:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Before starting, I'd recommend you read up on the guidelines that govern this article. WP:MOS-AM is the manual of style for anime and manga articles which helps us determine appropriate content, layout, etc. Tokyo Mew Mew is a series featured article that is also good to use for guidance/examples in wording, structure, referencing, etc. For referencing, the verification policy and reliable source guidelines are highly important, along with WP:CITE for how to do citations (as this article is already using the template style, {{cite web}}, {{cite book}}, and {{cite news}} are good templates to learn. WP:WAF discussions writing about fiction, important info for doing plot and character sections. Hope that helps and please ask questions if you are uncertain. This one is also on my clean up list, and I've done some of the initial stuff, but still busy with some other articles so haven't had time for the needed real world expansion. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:08, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Manga differences

I did a little change to it as there were LOTS of differences between the manga & the anime, with the ending & Edel's role being two of the most drastic differences. I'll flesh it out more when I get home & look through my manga. Tokyogirl79 (talk) 06:24, 11 February 2009 (UTC)Tokyogirl79

Thanks, just remember it should be an overview of the differences without too many point by point notes. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

"Kraehe" / クレール / "Claire"

Japanese creators frequently use Katakana transliterations of Western names they have heard for characters in Anime/Manga. "The Japanese language has a relatively small sound inventory" (Wikipedia quote), and therefore the Japanese normally make do with a rough approximation of Western name pronunciation using only sounds renderable in standard spoken Japanese and writable with standard Katakana.

When someone, who may not speak English (French, German, etc.) and may not know the original source name (or regular spelling of said name), translates these names (essentially back) to provide a "romanized" spelling (note: this usually stamps it as the "official romanized spelling" of a character's name), they may assume a made-up name or word, and merely attempt to romanize the Katakana in some approximate attractive fashion, not always necessarily by using a common system of romanization.

クレール ("kureeru" in Modified Hepburn system romanization) is one of the two most common Japanese transliterations of the not-uncommon Western name "Claire" (the other being クレア ("kurea" in Modified Hepburn system romanization)). クレール is used for "Claire" on a large number of Japanese websites, including MarieClaireParis cosmetics. This lends credence to the high possibility of the name in question (クレール) originally being derived from "Claire", as it is alternately rendered on other websites discussing Princess Tutu (e.g: ). クレール when spoken also sounds also exactly like a typical Japanese pronunciation of "Claire". (Interestingly, "Claire" is the French version of the Latinate name "Clara", the name of the little girl protagonist in "The Nutcracker" ballet.)

プリンセス is allowed to be "anglicized" as "princess", instead of "pu ri n se su", since it is also a well-known probable word transliteration; so why not the reference to クレール as a name most commonly derived from the Western name "Claire", and therefore that being the possible source of the name romanized in Princess Tutu as "Kraehe"? ("Kraehe" is not even a romanization of クレール from common systems; it appears it should be rendered in Katakana as クラエヘ.) If mentioning the likely derivation from "Claire" is somehow "not acceptable" here even after providing reference (one can google hundreds of examples demonstrating the etymological link between クレール and "Claire" in Japanese language usage), what can one do?

Whether an "official romanized" name spelling for a character results from either unknowledgeable "Engrishization" or a deliberate attempt at creative spelling ala "Tiffany > Typhenni" is not my point. I am not even ruling out a possibility that the name クレール was created as a meaningless bunch of sounds coincidentally resembling a Western name fairly well known to many Japanese. My interest is in linguistic derivation from one language into another receiving proper likely source credit. I feel it is derelict to refute mentioning the evidence, provided by the Katakana rendition, of "Claire" being the possible original name source of クレール (AKA "Kraehe"). Moralinguist (talk) 11:43, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

So, as I understand it, the official translation uses Kraehe? But you're proposing the addition of a note to suggest that the name would be more commonly romanized as Clare or Claire? (A quick search on the Japanese Wikipedia produced the former.) Given that Kraehe does not appear to be one of the series major characters, it seems like unnecessary trivia to me, but I know nothing of the series. I'm not comfortable second guessing the official translations, either; that's an awfully big can of worms to open. Doceirias (talk) 19:15, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Um, as a side note, Kraehe is definitely one of the major characters of the series, though the article does a cruddy job of reflecting that now. She's the main antagonist. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:18, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

She doesn't have a listing in the main article character section, so I just assumed. Doceirias (talk) 19:38, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

She's there...Princess Kraehe is the alternate name of Rue :-) (similar to how Princess Tutu = Duck) -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

One very strong argument against it intending to being Claire is that Kraehe (or more properly Krähe when you have umlauts available) is German for "crow", and she is a crow/raven princess (note that Japanese, like many languages, doesn't distinguish between various large black birds). I'd have to rewatch the series, which I'm due to do anyway, to see whether the spelling is ever given in romaji in the series itself, as well as on the official credits. —Quasirandom (talk) 21:04, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

It's been a long time since I watched it, but there is actually a commentary track by the translators where they discuss a lot of things including the German setting, character names, and the raven/crow issue you mention (they had to be very careful and specific as to which one to use). I think it's the commentary for one of the later episodes, or possibly in the middle at the earliest. I don't recall any "claire" angle, but I could be mistaken. It would be interesting if it were true because that would imply a double play on the name -- taken from both "claire" and Krähe. But at this point we need a RS for the "claire" angle because I know the transaltor commentary supports the Krähe angle. Argel1200 (talk) 00:28, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem is, I don't see how クレール (kurēru) could be a japanese transliteration for Krähe ('kre:a). Kurē- does mimic Krä- accurately, but the final katakana is -ru, and it's clear it equates the -r sound. The correct rendition of Krähe appears to be クレーエ (kurēe) (see here for example [7]). So, either the translators were mistaken, or the show creators specifically instructed them to use Kraehe even though they messed up their own japanese transliteration (the Japanese often provide name translation charts to international licensors, and we know they are still uncomfortable with "katakanaisation"). However, without a RS, we have no way to know for sure, unless that's what is stated in the commentary.

Now, this is what the anime/manga manual of style says: "Characters should be identified by the names used in the official English releases of the series. If there are multiple English releases, such as both a manga and anime, use the one that is best known and that has contributed most to the work's becoming known in the English-speaking world (usually the primary work)."

It's clear to me that the standard is to use the official translations whether accurate or not, and not to use what contributors feel is better. Kraehe must stay, and we really cannot do much besides writing a note about how the translators felt the japanese name was meant to mimic the German "Krähe", and maybe adding that クレール is also often romanized as Claire (if and only if we're able to find a RS for that, that is, not a random jp website).Folken de Fanel (talk) 14:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

As you noted, without an RS, there should be no note at all about mimicing German nor that it might be romanized as Claire. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Her name ending with the katakana -ru is important to her character in that it's the basis of her name as "Rue". Perhaps the creators intended "Kraehe" but intentionally did not use the exact transliteration for that reason. EmperorBrandon (talk) 04:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Would the two Princess Tutu anime guides published by "Champion Red Comics" be reliable sources? They seem official to me, but I don't know if they are. Book ISBN4-253-23050-4 uses "Kraehe" on page 12. Here is a photo of the page. --Christopher Fritz (talk) 00:29, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

As Champion Red Comics is the publisher of the manga, it is a reliable source to back up the spelling being Kraehe, the same as it is in the anime. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 01:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Fakir's role at the end

I added some text about this, since I think that it is an important subplot. The entire town, and all the events in it, are controlled by Drosselmeyer's story. Fakir has to use his own power to wrest control of the story towards a happy ending, and free the town from future intervention. This necessitates overcoming his own self-doubt and his initial distrust and contempt of Duck. Fakir's writing two stories for Duck is an important part of his own development, and crucial to the story.

Please feel free to tweak what I've written if you think you can do better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.124.149.116 (talk) 23:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

It seems perfectly reasonable to me, but referencing it is the problem. You admit that it's basically your own interpretation, but it needs to come from a RS.

You may be able to find something in http://www.google.com/cse?cx=009114923999563836576%3A1eorkzz2gp4&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Princess+Tutu%22+fakir+story+drosselmeyer+story but there are a lot of reviews to go through to piece together that interpretation. --Gwern (contribs) 12:44 25 August 2010 (GMT)

I agree that Fakir and Duck becomes close at the end of Princess Tutu. I think somebody should create another storyline to keep the show going forever. I have an idea that I am trying to work into a viable storyline to this effect that Fakir loves Duck. Johnmdws3 (talk) 23:07, 26 September 2011 (UTC)johnmdws3Johnmdws3 (talk) 23:07, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Manga's place in the article

I read the manga. It is VERY different from the anime, it is of low quality, and seems to be a practically unknown work. It's mention is confusing and drags the article down. I am removing all references to the manga from the article, as I see no reason for them to be there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.130.116.215 (talk) 17:28, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

It's still official and notable. You can't remove stuff just because you don't like or think it's of lesser quality. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 18:11, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. For encyclopedic reasons, the information should be there even if the manga is obscure or of low quality. The Manual of style for anime and manga related articles says to list related media, including manga. - carolyn⁸¹ (user • talk) 19:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

This is a dumb argument. The manga has practically no connection to the anime other than the characters names. By your argument why not including Troma Studios 'Troma and Juliet' in the article about the play. Then we can have the description of Juliet's father include that he makes porn movies. If you wan't to include the manga then make a separate article about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.130.116.215 (talk) 17:32, 24 August 2011 (UTC)