Talk:Prisoner of war
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Prisoner of war was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Delisted version: April 19, 2006
|Text from this version of Norman Cross was copied or moved into Prisoner of war with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:Norman Cross.|
- 1 US Indoctrination of POWs
- 2 N.Korea US pows
- 3 Contributions by 18.104.22.168
- 4 3,000 British WW 1 internees in Switzerland?
- 5 Wikiproject Prisons
- 6 polisario pows
- 7 Image deletion
- 8 Image copyright problem with Image:Kilinski.jpg
- 9 Palestinean POWs
- 10 supposedly "notable" POWs
- 11 Bold/Italic numbers
- 12 Did "only" 474,967 German POWs die in Soviet captivity?
- 13 Denial of POW status
- 14 Photo
- 15 POW portrait
- 16 Treatment of POWs by the Allies section
- 17 Indo-Pak War Section
- 18 Germany
- 19 Gulf war
- 20 Numbers of German POWs dead in Allied custody?
- 21 Civilians as POW's
- 22 Very close paraphrasing
- 23 Niall Ferguson's WWII table
- 24 1952 POW Olympics
- 25 Claims regarding treatment of surrendering Germans
- 26 Photograph of monument to German POWs of First World War
- 27 POWs of the World Civil Class & Race War on a Selection of Drug Users
- 28 French prisoners of war in World War II GA-nominated
- 29 Copyright problem removed
- 30 Nationalist Chinese reference under Western Allied section
US Indoctrination of POWs
I'm surprised that it is not mentioned in the article that the USA did not release it's Germany prisons held in North America until after an intese schooling of the soldiers in 'how they should run their country' after the war. There was no torcher or 'mistreatment' involved. This was traditional schooling in a classroom like setting with a teacher, blackboard, and the students taking notes with a lot of information about how democratic government works. I'd hardly call it an attorcity but it was in violation of the Geneva accords.
N.Korea US pows
I took out the image caption - "2/3 of US prisoners of war in communist captivity did not survive the war." <<< Seems a bit suspect. I remember one US Army general saying that north koreans suffered treatment worse under SK and US captivity than the North Korean treatment --maxrspct ping me 23:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Contributions by 22.214.171.124
3,000 British WW 1 internees in Switzerland?
In the section Release of prisoners under WW 1, it stated in the first sentence that:
- At the end of the war in 1918 there were believed to be 140,000 British prisoners of war in Germany, including 3,000 held in Switzerland.
What were 3,000 British POW's doing in neutral Switzerland? If those 3,000 Brits were internees -- including civilians -- it might be believable, but 3,000 British military internees seems unbelievable. The Swiss border is 100's of kilometers from the British WW 1 areas of operation in northwestern France and Belgium. Does anyone have any insight into this situation? Possibly escaped POW's from German camps?--TGC55 (talk) 12:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
this page is heavily pro-nazi... you can tell a German wrote most of it. Im surprised they stopped short of denying the halocaust.
Image copyright problem with Image:Kilinski.jpg
The image Image:Kilinski.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
- That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
- That this article is linked to from the image description page.
The following images also have this problem:
supposedly "notable" POWs
I removed some names from the List of notable POWs section because:
- a google search for Akbar Abotorabi Fard returns only copied text from this article, but nothing mentioning him to be a notable POW
- a google search for "Leslie Wayne Tennyson" returns 4 results (a google search for his filmmaker grandson returns 1 (!) hit)
- E.R. (Bon) Hall - in all name variations searched and nothing noteworthy found
- Wallace R. Benson - nothing to be found (and as head of the photogrammetry department of the Wyoming Highway Department he would never merit his own article)
- Alija Izetbegovic "was held as hostage for several days" - no POW by any means
- Manda Manchiani - nothing to be found about her on the net
- Arthur Koestler was never a soldier and therefore was never a POW
- also Friedrich Paulus was no outspoken critic of Adolf Hitler - he was one of Hitlers most loyal generals until August 1944 when he co-signed some calls to German troops to surrender
- There is no discussion on this page for the reasons behind the deletion of this section.
- Koestler may not have been a soldier but he was interned as an enemy alien and wrote an interesting book about it.
- Earlier, as a journalist during the Spanish Civil War, he had been put in prison and threatened with execution. He wrote another, different, book about that experience.
- Varlaam (talk) 16:26, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Did "only" 474,967 German POWs die in Soviet captivity?
Krivosheev's figure is more than doubtful and differs absolutely from the figure of the German Red Cross. To my knowledge this figure says, that more than a million German POWs have died in Soviet captivity quite sure(?) and 1.3 million were missed at the end of the war, of whom obviously about 90% finally were at the eastern front. 
Maybe 1 or 1.5 million were killed soon after surrender and never registered or (likely) Soviet archives are very fragmentary. (Even American records about the many German POWs at the end of the war were of a remarkable incompletion.)
But not doubtful is the criminal treatment of Soviet POWs in German captivity. Once an eyewitness told me, that he, when being injured in a hospital for German soldiers, saw Soviet POWs starving - some of them died - in a camp, separated only by a guarded barbwired fence from the hospital area. Any contact to the POWs was strictly forbidden and the message was clear: If you ever surrender, there will be no mercy. Your fate will be no better!
Only a few single not collaborating Soviet POWs could be so lucky, to experience the totally opposite. So I remember a published letter to the editor of my homenewspaper during the late Gorbatchev area, where a former Soviet POW told, that he never could write before and if someone knews about his former "host family" to whom he had been ordered then, to help on their farm and who treated him like a son. (May be, they kept in mind their own son, being at the front.) They had also covered him, when getting the message, he should be picked up for another place. But this man had great luck!
To reconciliation now the story of a Soviet sergeant, who saved the life of one of my uncles, who in 1945 was a 17 year old -looking younger - soldier of the Waffen-SS, who - days after the end of the war - was within a group of civilian clothes wearing buddies, who tried, to leave Bohemia through the woods to access Germany. In doing so, they suddenly came across a Soviet check point. They had no chance to escape, but the days before they had seen some civilian (real civilian) victims of so-called partisans (- an insult to partisans like AK -) so that they were determined, not to become captured alive. For some seconds it was a surreal situation. Both sides silent. Then the sergeant came to them, speaking some German words in a friendly manner. "Home?" "Yes." Once he run his hand over my uncle's hair and asked him: "Home to mum?" "Yes." Then he took the map and illustrated the way, they should go and which routes were dangerous. When they were alone again, they first didn't believe, but strictly followed the advice, came never over a Soviet check point again and finally reached the western part of Germany. My uncle told, this man had saved his live. At the check point this man was only an enemy for him and he had not hesitated one second, to take his pistol and shoot him dead, if only a superiors had told him one word. My uncle, later became a great fan of Russian culture, was engaged in partnership of his town in Westgermany with a Russian town, had close connections to some Russians and it was self-evident for him, to subscribe money when there was a crop failure in the SU etc.
This, for sure, was nothing, which belongs to an encyclopedia, but something, which illustrates something.
Denial of POW status
I'd like to suggest a new section for "Denial of POW status", which can then also link to the DEF/SEP articles and other examples. "Qualification" is within "Modern times" section, but this matter is not limited to modern times, so perhaps both it and "Denial of POW status" should be top-level sections coming somewhere towards the end of the article. Any comments? Euan McKay (talk) 14:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I added a portrait done by a POW war artist which was subsequently deleted with no reason given. I have replaced it as it is relevant, significant, of general interest and provides a welcome contrast to the other visual references which are mainly photographs. Tomintoul (talk) 08:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I had replaced it by a photo of the Bataan Death March because there is not really place to put more than three pictures and because a photo is much more meaningful than a painting which, contrary to what you claim, is not particularly "relevant, significant, of general interest" as, without an explanation, nothing in this painting gives a clue to the way it is related to the topic...--Flying Tiger (talk) 15:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I evidently noticed that... As I noticed that this painting was downloaded by yourself on Wikipedia commons and that you also added it on the article about the artist. It dosen't give it more relevance than a photo showing POW in explicit situations...--Flying Tiger (talk) 19:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
There are no other examples of POW art on the page, but lots of photographs. Persons with an interest in war art, such as myself, will find this relevant and interesting (and rare). Could I invite some other views on this? Tomintoul (talk) 20:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Treatment of POWs by the Allies section
I'm rather surprised to see that this section's coverage of how the western Allies treated POWs is focused almost entirely on the rare incidents in which prisoners were mistreated; there's only a single sentence which acknowledges that they normally treated POWs well. Nick-D (talk) 07:40, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Indo-Pak War Section
Non-neutral, poorly written, unreferenced save one item of little relevance. Should this be deleted?
- It should of not been the first sentence under Germany. That number figure was for the overall POW deaths during WW2 while this is supposed to be a section on Germany. The figure was removed by me weeks ago since it did not apply directly to just Germany. Caden cool 18:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Numbers of German POWs dead in Allied custody?
I could not help but notice this: The WW II section very clearly states numbers of Soviets dead in German POW camps, of Germans dead in Soviet POW camps, and of Allied troops dead in German camps. The section about Germans in Allied POW camps, however, is suspiciously void of numbers. I don't want to swing the POV mallet here, but it's a curious coincidence. Anybody cares to rectify this? -- DevSolar (talk) 13:32, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- That sounds like a gap which needs to be filled - do you have any reliably sourced figures which can be added? Nick-D (talk) 09:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Civilians as POW's
Anyone got a source for this? Noncombatants may not be taken as POW's, see Condé Victor H. (2004) A handbook of international human rights terminology University of Nebraska Press ISBN 978-0803264397 p36 Darkness Shines (talk) 21:19, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Very close paraphrasing
I just checked the source for the treatment of Maya prisoners of war. The article has:
In Mayan civilization of Mesoamerica more than a thousand years ago, prisoners of war were paraded before the king and his royal cohort and subjected to ritual humiliation and torture.
This is practically lifted from the cited source, the Los Angeles Times:
In the fearsome Maya civilization of Mesoamerica more than a thousand years ago, wars were fought twice -- once on the battlefield and again in elaborate courtly rituals. Prisoners of war were paraded before the king and his royal cohort and subjected to ritual humiliation and torture
- There's nothing stopping you from rephrasing it. Be bold. But a lot of non-NPOV language has been stripped from the original, so I don't see a clear-cut copyright violation. There's only so many ways to phrase "ritual humiliation and torture", though "king and his royal cohort" is unusual enough wording that there may be an alternative. --Yaush (talk) 18:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, it was only one line, not a whole paragraph - and the "king and his royal cohort" is probably a mistake for "the king and his royal court" anyway - just wondering whether this is enough to count as WP:COPYVIO or not. Thanks, Simon Burchell (talk) 18:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Niall Ferguson's WWII table
1952 POW Olympics
Claims regarding treatment of surrendering Germans
This statement is problematic:
- Germans were often shot en masse when surrendering if one of them continued resisting or else the men were still armed. Other times, American soldiers shot Germans in cold blood. This became a particular problem because the latter were known to send unarmed men on patrols so they could claim they were surrendering if caught, but the Americans simply shot any enemy caught behind the lines. Veterans often blamed these excesses on inexperienced 18 and 19 year old replacements drafted towards the end of the war, but reliable information is lacking since everyone agreed that shooting prisoners was a subject best left undiscussed.
It's not that it's implausible; it's that it's unsourced and the admission that reliable information is lacking is virtually an admission that it's innuendo. If a cite to a reliable source is not appended reasonably quickly, I'm going to remove the entire statement. --Yaush (talk) 18:55, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
- Several months have passed and no source has been provided. It goes. --Yaush (talk) 16:20, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
Photograph of monument to German POWs of First World War
The photograph captioned: "A memorial with text dedicating it to the 153,281 German Prisoners of War who died in Allied captivity 1914–1920" is problematic. The fate of German POWs in Allied captivity during the First World War is barely discussed in the article, and the figure of 153,281 dead in particular is nowhere discussed. Thus this photograph lacks essential context. For all we know, the sculpture is Nazi-era propaganda art. Then again, the figure may be reasonable; how are we to know? --Yaush (talk) 16:20, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
== Low ==
- Under "World War II", 0.15% and 0.03% are too low. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 12:20, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
POWs of the World Civil Class & Race War on a Selection of Drug Users
It's high time we have a section on the slow motion holocaust that's consuming the lives of millions of POWs in our longest World War— the War on (a racially/ politically/ private industrially motivated selection of) Drugs. Kaecyy (talk) 18:05, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- I fail to see how that's a relevant answer. Because buddy, if the US government has called it a war, and declared it, and it's a shooting war— all of which it has, and it is— then the World Civil Class & Race War on a Selection of Drug Users has PLENTY of POWs— ≈1,000,000 and counting in the USA alone. I say we add a section in. Kaecyy (talk) 10:06, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
French prisoners of war in World War II GA-nominated
Copyright problem removed
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Nationalist Chinese reference under Western Allied section
There is roughly a paragraph under the Western Allied treatment of Japanese POW's during World War II, which cites torture and executions of Japanese soldiers by the Nationalist Chinese. Generally, Nationalist China isn't grouped as part of the Western Allies, which were Anglosphere/Francosphere countries, and the torture methods described were performed solely by Chinese. Should Nationalist China get its own heading/subheading? Powerman4999 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:52, 30 September 2014 (UTC)