Talk:Races in The Legend of Zelda series

Hylia vs. Hylian

It appears, from what I've seen, that "Hylian" is correct and "Hylia" does not appear. My apologies for the revert - if this is incorrect, please discuss here instead of reverting. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 23:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

"Hylia" does appear, just not in conjunction with "the Hylia". "A Hylia" would be incorrect anyway, as Hylia would be the name of the tribe, not the type of creature - "A Hylian" is correct.

This scan shows, in the upper section, that the Hylia is the name of the race. Shad in TP also says "the people of Hylia" - this seems very strange wording, and it may possibly be a mistranslation, but oh well. What is certain is that "Hylian" is never used as the name of the race - it is used as an adjective, always. "Hylian people", etc. The few references to the "Hylia" as opposed to Hylian is due to the fact that the race as a whole really isn't talked about in the games - at most a few members or a town are, but other than that, it is the other races that are the main interest of the story (not that I'm saying they're the driving force - it's just that it's pretty easy for the player to accept elf-like humans as a race, and his interest moves on to fish people and rock trolls).

What is also clear, very clear, is that the Japanese name is ハイリア族, or "Hylia Tribe". So, the ALttP manual and the japanese names agree, and Shad seems to be agreeing as well (while very strangely worded, it really doesn't make sense any other way - it works if you think about it Japanese grammar wise ("Hylia's people"), and there's no place called "Hylia" - Lake Hylia, maybe, but 1) that has "Lake" in it, and 2) I think we don't need to try to argue that Hylians came from the lake.KrytenKoro 05:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I agree it's strangely worded, but now I know the reasoning behind it ect. Thank you for explaining it. I thought it would be worth adding a hidden comment. .:Alex:. 08:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

In A Link to the Past, Ganondorf was also known as "Mandrag Ganon" which means "Ganon of the Enchanted Thieves". It should be noted however that the prefix of "Mandrag" was only present in the English manual of A Link to the Past and completely absent from the Japanese version. It also said that Hylians were born with magic-infused blood, endowing them with psychic powers and skill in wizardry, while according to the Japanese manual, these powers are gifts from the gods. The manuals also claim that the Hylians' long, pointed ears allow them to hear messages from the gods. Several lines of dialog from the link to the past manual were either poorly translated or sections were added by American translators as creative elements. These changes are no longer considered cannon. When Shad said in Twilight Princess; "When they created the people of Hylia, they simultaneously created a new capital, a city that floated in the heavens." In this context, it could also possibly refer to the three hylian goddesses. Often the hylians are considered "chosen people" according to the official zelda.com website. "People of the Hylia" could possibly mean "People of the Goddesses". People of the Neighboring kingdoms often are often of different religions such as the worship of Jabu Jabu, and the worship of the sole male Gerudo, The Four Giants. The Hylians believing that they are Chosen People. Where as the Deku Tree Sprout in Ocarina of Time said to Link "You are not a Kokiri! You are actually a Hylian! I am happy to finally reveal this secret to you!" Hylian couldn't refer to a tribe or country of origin because Link was raised in Kokiri forest. Although Hylia might bare a closer visual resemblance to the raw translation “Hairia”. It also sounds like members of TheHylia.com are imposing their personal opinion and trying to justify it's name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.249.144.206 (talk) 23:02, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

IP: Please assume good faith. The scan shown (which is reliable, as it is a scan of an official LoZ publication) shows that it is one Hylian, two Hylia, and The Hylia. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 15:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

...First off, I'm not from "The Hylia". Second off, I can read Japanese, and that literally says "Hylia Tribe", so the whole argument about dubbing changes is irrelevant. Second off, the three goddesses are never called "The Hylia", and the particle for possesive ("A's B") is sometimes translated as "B of A" - so what it is basically saying is "Hylia's people". Also, it wouldn't say something like "Hylia created the people of Hylia", because Japanese is often removes the subject noun - it doesn't add superfluous one's in. If it meant as you said it, it would have been "When they created their people" - because the Japanese sentence would not reiterate its subject.

"differing religions" - those are patron deities. All races still worship the goddesses - that's what the sages are doing every time they cast magic, and that's what the four sages in TWW spend all their time doing. The way the different tribes worship different deities is closer to how St. Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland - he is their primary saint, but they still worship God above him. Understand?KrytenKoro 01:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Fine, then it could mean they believe they are the people of their chosen patron deities. It doesn't matter, the point is that it's a different possible meaning for a word that was used in a vague context in one of their games. and that the link to the past manual was translated poorly, and added a lot of things that weren't considered canon in game, or in later games. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.210.80 (talk) 20:00, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't matter if you can read Japanese or not. This is the ENGLISH Wikipedia, The ENGLISH Translation, and the ENGLISH WORD used in-game. With only ONE debatable use of the word "Hylia" It should not be used just because "it's more Japanese." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.210.80 (talk • contribs)

The article has been edited again. I have reverted; no consensus for a change has been established. Do not change it again without consulting this page. And DO NOT edit other users' talk page comments, as per WP:TPG. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 23:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

...we're not saying anything about "you need to know Japanese" - I was refuting the idea that calling the race "Hylia" was a dubbing error, as it clearly appears in Japanese as well, and Shad's very odd wording fits correct grammar if you understand basic Japanese grammar. As for the "other option" of what it could mean - no, I'm sorry. The goddesses are never called the Hylia (if they were, it would imply that Hylians are members of the Triad), while "The Hylia" is used in other cases to refer to the entirety of the race.KrytenKoro 23:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I'd apperciate another in-game example from any of the games "The Hylia" is used in other cases to refer to the entirety of the race. Because right Shad says the part about the Hylia, he says "Yes, according to legend, Hyrule was made by the Hylians, who, as we all know, are the closest race to the gods. But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians." In English grammer, he would have used the same word for all three uses, and would have had no reason to change to Hylia after using Hylian twice to refer to race, unless Hylia has a different meaning. Religion is one possible meaning.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.210.80 (talk • contribs)

Please do not edit other users' posts. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 04:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Because it is difficult to search for other quotes without getting mostly "Lake Hylia" things. (Though "Great Bridge of Hylia" has nothing to do with the lake or the goddesses), it seems most illustrative to show a search for the Japanese phrase.

Of interest are is ハイリア人, which translates as "Hylian", or more literally, "Hylia person"{Hairia Jin} - this is how all such titles are made - country/tribe + 人. For example, "American" is Amerika Jin.

Of even more interest is the official Japanese site for Ocarina of Time, which uses ハイリア族, which verifies that it is not a fanname.

My point is; "This isn't Japan". the changes made from the Japanese to English translation, anything from having to word "tribe" at the end of every race, to simple changes in spelling, should be used in the English Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.210.80 (talk • contribs)

I know this isn't Japan. I'm not using the Japanese stuff to refute anything in the dub! I'm trying to show you how the Japanese side helps to explain what is going on in the English version.KrytenKoro 14:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Basically, "Hylians" would make sense if every other race here was taken as the plural - indicating them as a group of characters, not as a race. If we structure this page as information on the races themselves, then 'Hylia is appropriate. (The Hylia, if you really must change it).KrytenKoro 05:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Unless it's used as an adjective and a noun. Like Mexican. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.210.80 (talk • contribs)

If there was any hint at all that Mexican had a place in the translation, that would be a valid point.KrytenKoro 14:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's sum this up.

The bottom line (and can anyone refute this?) is that, in the English-language LoZ instruction manual (as scanned above), the group is referred to as "The Hylia," the individuals as "A Hylian." That is an official Nintendo source, and unrefutable. (Also, please sign your posts on a talk page by typing four tildes - ~~~~.) Cheers! =David^(talk)_(contribs) 14:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Hylian

"Yes, according to legend, Hyrule was made by the Hylians, who, as we all know, are the closest race to the gods."

"But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians."

"The ancestors of the Hylians created the temple."

"He has been researching the Oocca, who are said to be the ancestors of the Hylians."

"Shad tells us that the gods created these wiry birds who in turn created the Hylians."

Hylia

"When they created the people of Hylia, they simultaneously created a new capital, a city that floated in the heavens."

In English, "the people of-" is only used when followed by a noun. The only other English uses of Hylia has referred to places. The bad translation of "A Link to the Past" has also been visited before. With the amount of additional material used in that manual that either contradicts or has never been referred to in later material makes it out of date and non-cannon [1]. Like the original Legend of Zelda manual. ~~~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.210.80 (talk) 01:23, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

...you're saying it's a bad translation when the original Japanese backs it up? Okay...

For ALttP - I'm pretty sure that that's because they had a smaller manual to work with, so the story had to be compressed, but it is true that it doesn't mention the section about the Hylia.

"You found the Book of Mudora!

You can use it to read the ancient language of the Hylia!" - not removed in the remake.

"They say the Hylian people mastered mysterious powers, as did the seven sages. But the blood of the Hylia has grown thin over time."

At this point, I don't know what to tell you. "Hylians" fits normal conjugation as "members of the Hylia", and except in Shad's case, "Hylians" never refers to the race as a whole, while "The Hylia" does. I'm unable to find a japanese dump of the text in the game to compare, and see what they meant him to be referring to.KrytenKoro

Bugger off, SineBot. I signed the post.KrytenKoro

I'm still not getting the whole ""Hylians" never refers to the race as a whole, while "The Hylia" does" thing.

To illustrate with a clear example - in the japanese, the words are "Hylia Zoku" and "Hylia Jin" - "Hylia Tribe", and "Hylian" - merely meaning a person(s), not a tribe or race. From what I've seen, this usually corresponds to how the English versions use the two - while it's not as easy to see in the English, where group and ethnic names don't have a clear conjugation to them, it is very easy to see in the Japanese.

Basically, whenever "Hylians" is used, it is referring to multiple members of the tribe; while it may indirectly refer to all of them, it isn't referring to the race/subspecies itself. On the other hand "The Hylia" always and only refers to the race as a whole. It's basically a difference in aesthetics.KrytenKoro 02:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

My contention would be that, if we're describing the races, we should use the adjective form, which every other race in this section follows (even though, in the rest of those cases, the adjective form doubles as the noun form). To that end, therefore, and so as not to add further to the controversy, while maintaining both points of view (whether the name of the race is "Hylia" or "Hylian"), everyone agrees that the adjective form is "Hylian", so I'm going to change it to that, consistent with this view. I will do the same with any other races in question. Leave it alone.Cocoapropo 03:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty much OR that the others are all adjective form; what would be easiest is to take the official route and say "tribe" after each one - that way, there's no argument. However, the argument can be made that this page is a list of the races, so as a header, the race should be named. If all of them say tribe, then the adj form is acceptable. If not, then they should all be noun form.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seemed adjective-ey to me, anyway. And it's not original research, it's a point of view. Either way, as you point out, it doesn't matter. But probably the way you modified it is best, just to change it to "Hylian race", although that seems kinda redundant, doesn't it? And the reason I changed the main heading to "Humans and like races" is because none of the others are necessarily human, just humanoid, but I didn't change it to that because it didn't sound quite right to me.Cocoapropo 01:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, they are all human. Except for the two that are currently commented out. The term "human" is used frequently in the series, and so far has referred to the races in that section.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 20:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Fierce Diety

I was wondering why a page doesen't exist for the Fierce Diety? He is a very popular charecter and i belive that if Jabu-Jabu merits a page so should Fierce Diety216.12.83.170 00:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Ehh... a section in this article, you mean? Neither character is even part of a race, so it wouldn't be relevant here. Also, the Fierce Deity is represented as little more than a transformation of Link in the game, the being itself is never shown. Haipa Doragon (talk) 15:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

feirce deity is not part of a race rather a strong persons spirit tied to a mask. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LegendLiver (talk • contribs) 22:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Zelda.com

I'd like to ask everyone to stop using Zelda.com as source of info if that info is not specifically stated in a game. Most of what I can read there is just utter bullshit. Zola are female Zoras????? That's a new one! For one, "Zola" don't exist and secondly, didn't they have a KING in A Link To The Past? Or how about this quote: Young Medli was a princess of the Rito tribe. Princess huh? So, can we stop using Zelda.com as a source of info for anything not stated in the games?DreamingLady 16:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

IIUC, Zelda.com is an official Nintendo site. Correct me if I'm wrong. If it's official, then whether we like it or not, it's an admissible and reliable source. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 17:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The games, though, are more official, and if an official site contradicts the games themselves, which are the subject of the article, then the game should be given priority, and the site should be considered unreliable (IMO, at least). I don't really trust these "official" sites anyway, it's not as if they're actually written by someone like Miyamoto or Aonuma, or whoever.

P.S. This discussion should really go in WikiProject: Zelda series, it applies to most Zelda articles. Haipa Doragon (talk) 18:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

1. King doesn't always imply male.
2. The site is maintained by Nintendo of America, and is thus technically as canon as each game and manual is to the others. The games can contradict even themselves sometimes, it's not a big deal.
3. Also, most of the parts of Zelda.com are translations from the official Japanese sites, which are highly accurate regarding the games. I can't find an actual "written by" anywhere on them, but...KrytenKoro 23:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

1. I said I propose we only do not use Zelda.com for any info not stated in/different from the games. I didn't say we shouldn't use it at all. Game > manuals, sites (whether official or not) and other sources.
2. Do we have any idea who wrote that stuff? Like said before, I doubt the people responsible for the games write it. It's most likely nothing more than someone's own view on the games.
3. When in the Zelda games did a "male" title apply to a woman? As far as I can tell, they always said king when it was a male, queen when it was a female, prince when, princess etc.
4. The games can contradict themselves, yes. But those are never contradictions of this level. I wouldn't mention manuals as a reliable source btw. The first four Zelda games had horrible translations (courtesy of NoA). Yes, I know that starting OOT, it has been reliable, but it's not uncommon for NOA to change things in games if they see fit.
5. They are? Fine, give me the link of the official Japanese sites. Because I highly doubt it, since Zolas DO NOT EXIST!!!! The R and L in Japanese are the same letter, meaning that the translation is at least slightly adjusted.DreamingLady 06:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

1. That would defeat the purpose of using it, then.
2. [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]
3. [7] lists King as a male ruler, but at least one definition is just "ruler". In any case - when did they ever have a queen as the supreme ruler? They've actually been awfuly inconsistent, what with Zelda being called Princess even when she "should" be called Queen.
4. I can't find a specific authorship, most likely since the info is licensed to Nintendo, and thus not owned by any specific writer, but it is claimed by Nintendo to be official side material.
5. Link's Awakening had a good translation...
6. Zola has been the translated name since the beginning...it was just used somewhat interchangeably until OoA. In any case, it does not conflict with the games, as Zolas are still a type of Zora.

If the games said "the fish enemies are not female Zora", and the site said they are, that would be a contradiction. As it is, it is not.KrytenKoro 07:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for the late reply.

1. How come? To make Wikipedia more "professional", you need to be able to refer to sources, if possible reliable sources that can immediately be checked. Zelda.com can be used as a source in that sense.
2. .....So, where's the stuff about River Zora/Zola written then? Because I couldn't find anything that could possibly be refering to it. (No, I can't read Japanese, but I can recognize the symbols used to write "Zora" and somewhat translate that piece of text. Nothing even comes close to describing one of the two Zora races.) Actually, there's a whole lot I can't find, that is still written on Zelda.com. So, what do you mean with "Zelda.com are translations from the official Japanese sites"?
3. Queens: Fairy queens, Bee Queen (Tingle's game, but I guess that's a bit of a cheap answer ;)), Rutela (Zora queen), Queen Gohma, Ambi (OOA). Maybe there are more, maybe there aren't. Anyway, these all bear the correct title of queen. I've done some searching to see if the title king has ever been used for a female, but I couldn't find anything. What were you refering to when you called "them" awfuly inconsistent? Only the Zelda-princess/queen issue? If I remember correctly, I was the first to point that out on Zelda's page. However, I never considered it an inconsistency because there could be a whole lot of reasons why she is called princess rather than queen.
4. Oh, I don't think they aren't related to the Sea Zora. I just have no reason to believe/assume/think that "Zola" are a couple of female members of the Sea Zora race gone badass. It's just too different from the image the games have tried to create of them (and contradicts with King Zora of course).

Regardless, this is only part of the issue. I was also questioning Zelda.com's stand alone value in general. It seems to me that site has not been properly updated ever since Majora's Mask. Also, I think I can live with that awkward description from Zelda.com of the "Zola" on this page, IF it will be clearly mentioned that Zelda.com is the only source on it and that it is slightly odd due to the King Zora of ALTTP. DreamingLady 13:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

1. I meant that, What's the purpose of using it if we can only use info that is redundant to other sources?
2. I don't know about the "Official Encyclopedia", but the small sites are translations of the Japanese.
3. Yeah, pretty much the Zelda thing.
4. I'm perfectly fine with it being said that "only according to A, is B". I just don't see the point in removing it without an explicit contradiction. (I agree with you, it sounds pretty ridiculous I just want to make sure we don't become biased to material)KrytenKoro 23:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

in phantom hourglass a monster in zola tradition was named a zora warrior so that proves that zola and zora are one in the sameLegendLiver 21:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

But the problem is, its only given that name in a Prima guide, and Prima is notoriously unreliable with this kind of thing - they monstrously f'ed up TP character and enemy names.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Dark Tribe

Okay, I can see how the Dead tribe can be considered just the form of other tribes, and the Monster Tribe doesn't really display sentience.

However, the Dark Tribe consistenly displays sentience - one writes love letters to Maggie in TWW, you can talk to another in TMC, and in both TWW and TPH, many of them can pilot ships or man fortresses.

When the name of the group was first introduced, in ALttP, it seemed to include all of the 'blins, the Wizzrobes, the 'nuts, and the Mimic/Thieves. I'm not sure if Mimics really display sentience, but the rest of them certainly do.

So, we need to add a section, and we could probably merge the related articles into it. Or treat it like the "Human" section, with multiple subsections.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 15:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's best to group them like that. While tribe in the context of the Wind Tribe and Yamatami Tribe refers to a small group of the same race/species, tribe in the context of Dark Tribe would pretty much mean everything that serves Ganon(dorf). That are quite a few races that aren't (genetically) related. Whether those individual races should be mentioned on this page, I'm not sure. There's definitely something to be said for the (Mo)blins by now (which can be done by merely refering to the Moblin article). By now they have proven culture and intelligence on several occasions. The others though, while I don't doubt they are intelligent (clothes are prove of intelligence, and so is, with a bit of bitterness in my voice, the use of weapons), we just don't have enough about them to justify a section on this page.DreamingLady 14:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, most anything killable in the games seems to actually be some kind of magical construct (Especially the monster race), so it doesn't seem to much of a stretch for 'nuts, wizzrobes, and 'blins to be some kind of summon or something (from the Dark Realm?). That's OR, though - however, they are called the Dark Tribe, and they have displayed culture and intelligence, so it doesn't seem right to arbitrarily split them because we feel they are too different. After all, Zora and Zola look nothing alike, but are considered the same tribe.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 22:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Would make you sleep better at night if you could just think that all those creatures you kill are "not real", eh? Any outcome of this discussion is fine by me. Although I do persist that they should not be called one "race". The reason why river Zoras are mentioned in the sea Zora article is probably because it's impossible to fully describe the sea Zora race from an out of universe perspective if you don't. Anyway, I suggested yesterday in that nice topic under this one, that we somewhat split the two. Hmmm, come to think of it, since there isn't a lot about the intelligent evil races, maybe they indeed can be summed under one title of Dark Tribe. Just with some introduction talk about how some races have sworn loyalty to the dark side and that as such, little is known about them.DreamingLady 09:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the bursting into smoke and turning into a crystal ball...I mean, that can't be the normal function of the sword Orca gives you, can it? (Though they are as real as anything else there - they clearly have sentience, et all. And something shouldn't be killed just for being "artificial") Plus, the opening to TMC pretty much makes it clear that nearly all evil monsters are the result of a curse - Vaati is the only "natural" monster there.

I do think they should be under the same header, like "Human", as thats how the game titles them. If you want to separate them below that line, fine with me.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 00:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

regular crabs in Link to the past also explode into smoke. Many monsters display indepence or even a moral compass. Moblins and other monsters have occasionaly rebelled and helped Link. Delsait 04:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Gods and Zoras

Um yeah, just a question about the Gods section. I know Ganondorf is called a god, and well, Fierce "Deity" is a big hint as well, should they be noted in the section? I mean, you got gods as in extremely powerful beings, usually using a lower being to do their work, and you got gods as in title/the having of followers. The latter is not really part of the "race", non?

• <!Tingle RPG SPOILER!>
  • Because I am so going to add Tingle to the notable list if Ganondorf and Fierce Deity stay in there. Now, I don't want to spoil things for anyone who wants to play Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland, but Tingle is declared a god by the Yamatami Tribe after saving them from a false god.
• <End spoiler>

As for the Zora, I suggest we rearrange/rewrite the section so it looks more like the Human section. Makes things a bit more organized.DreamingLady 14:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

...well...if we really wanted to be honest, gods are defined by the belief of the culture - power level itself doesn't usually mean anything. If it is believed something is a god, especially if it is believed by a large group, then they are considered a god - otherwise, we'd have to disregard most non-YHWH level gods across wikipedia, and that would be POV.

So, as much as I despise the notion, Tingle counts as a god if a tribe believes he is. Unless the game goes out of its way to say "He's not really a god, they're all just crazy". Then, the narrator takes precedence.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 22:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of them being on this page? If "god" is more of a title than a creature, it might be better to remove the Deity section from the list and possibly start an article about religion in the TLOZ titles.DreamingLady 09:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's hard to explain - it's a very metaphysical concept, and especially in a world where it's commonplace for a person to turn into a semi-divine beast, who's to say that their belief didn't change his nature into that that is divine? I think it would be safer to say that if a character is called a God/Spirit, and there isn't sufficient evidence that the believers are loony, then they just might be right.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 18:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying he isn't a god according to the rules of the essence of divinity, but he's not a god according to the rules of the "race" in TLOZ. And this page is about Races in The Legend of Zelda series. This isn't about the perception of others, but about the essence of a being as such. While not entirely the same, Vaati might seem a Hylian to many people in TMC, but that doesn't mean he is.

P.S., if you reply on this, please do so under the Gods header, so we have one conversation/discussion again. :)DreamingLady 12:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Gods

Okay, so we either put under "Notable Gods/Spirits" only those who are actually deity by race/species (as is the purpose of this page), or we remove the deity section completely and possibly create a page for religion in TLOZ as a whole. Because it just doesn't make sense to mention Ganon(dorf) as a notable god after stating it in his case is more of a title. I mean, the same is claimed about the goddess of fortune, who is not mentioned. Following this reasoning, Tingle should also be on that list, and Vaati on the notable Hylians list, which both just don't seem right, as they are not part of the race, which is what this page is about.DreamingLady 18:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the Goddess of Fortune is a Great Fairy, and the series has shown that their nature is certainly of the divine (maybe not the level of the three, but...). As for Ganondorf, whether it be due to his power level or not, the game shows that his nature has become divine (evil divine, but...). The wording for Ganondorf in fact states that his title is perhaps because of his power level, not a mere title, or dogma (i.e., Allah would be considered a god in a more dynamic pantheon, but not in a dogmatic pantheon based on Judaism or Christianity).

If you really want to, I really don't see a good reason against creating a religion page, other than the fact that many of the beings on the list aren't actually known about in the games they appear in, and any actual religion around them (minus some of the temples and the big three and four) is unknown. Also, it will probably get deleted - it looks like a big movement against sub-articles is starting up (see the AfD for the bosses page), and a religion page would be much harder to defend — I would support it, but no one on the AfDs really listens to me anyway, sooo....Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 18:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

For Fierce Deity - it certainly seems to have the power level of the other deity's, and it's power level is compared to Majora, which was able to overpower the creator gods of Termina. I think we can say that it's title was not undeserved, but the whole issue is really complex in the first place. Should we even have a "deities/section" on this page? Maybe we could move it to the respective "World" pages, as that would require slightly less OR.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 18:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

They've also shown that there's a strong connection between Fairies and the Sages, yet I wouldn't call them demi-gods (or part of the same race). Avatars maybe, but that's something quite different. And again, I do not oppose the idea of Ganondorf being a god according in the sense of a (supposedly) powerful being with a couple or more followers, but I do oppose the idea of him being a member of a different race than the one he was born as while all that has changed is his powerlevel.

I am aware of the weak excuse for such a page. I am not truly in favour of it, but looking at the way the Deity section is currently treated, it just doesn't seem like it should be here. I think there is enough info to properly fill such a page (a lot of deities are connected to a race and there's quite a bit of info about how the two treat eachother). But I'm also 100% fine with your suggestions of downright deleting or integrating it within the World pages. DreamingLady 12:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

One big word: magic.

"but he's not a god according to the rules of the "race" in TLOZ."

We can't know what the rules are - for example, Ganon was originally just a human, but he became something called a god (technically, his race worshiped him from birth), and has an appropriate power level (able to take down and ignore attacks from other gods/spirits). Especially since he has magic, who's to say he hasn't ascended?

"but about the essence of a being as such."

Again, it's a magical, metaphysical concept. We have no way of saying that the tribe is wrong, unless we can finally get a chance to read the Book of Mudora and find out how Hyrule defines deities.

"While not entirely the same, Vaati might seem a Hylian to many people in TMC, but that doesn't mean he is."

He has the Minish Cap, an item of intense magical power that can grant nearly any wish - and he presumably wishes to become a Hylian sorcerer. How can we say he is not a Hylian, just because he was "born" Minish? That's taking the race bit of this a good bit more seriously than was probably intended - hell, the original backstory for Zora was that they were fish that lived in magic water, and became sentient.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 05:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Should the Spirits still be there the page was satarting to seem alphabetical? if it was i'll change it.LegendLiver 12:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

It should be moved - I changed the header because the last few games have used "spirit" as the main translation for the kanji.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Ooccoo is not called Ooccoo in Japan

So what is the Oocca race called? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 07:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the race name is given in dialogue, not based on her name, so it's not even clear that there is a difference. We'll check, though.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 15:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can't find a japanese text dump, but the italian calls her "Polly Molly", and says she's from "the ethereal city".Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 15:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

lolwut?

In the Gerudo section someone mentioned that the fortune teller lady appears to be Gerudo, when she looked more asian to me. If anyone in Phantom Hourglass is Gerudo it is definately either Jolene or her sister Joanne. I don't want to edit this in because I'm not very good at editing in general, and I don't know if people agree with my PoV.--66.225.179.117 22:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

...are you joking? It's fictional races, not earth ones. Yes, Jolene and Joanne also appear to be Gerudos, and Jolene definitely fights like one.74.140.121.203 00:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The point wasn't that she is from Asia, the point is that she looks Asian, and Gerudos don't look Asian. So she's not a gerudo.--Phantom Kirby 23:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

...How does she look any more Asian than any other human in the games? She has auburn hair, for crying out loud. And Gerudos essentially look the same as Hylians, except with orange skin and red hair.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Gerudos are as you say, but they also dress differently. Culture is about more than race, y'know. The Fortune Teller dresses more or less like a stereotypical fortune teller, Jolene, on the other hand, dresses in a similar fashion to the Gerudos, IMO. She just looks alot like a Gerudo overall.--Phantom Kirby 01:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

...the Gerudo really don't have that much consistency in how they dress. Veran, Onox, Twinrova, and Ganon all wear massively different costumes than the OoT Gerudo, the OoT Gerudo wear different from the MM, and the MM from the FSA...and besides, they're on the ocean. Why would they be only be wearing desert garb?

And while CULTURE is about more than physical details, RACE is about pretty much the physical details. The TWW Gorons wear much different clothes and act much differently from other Gorons - but they are still of the Goron Tribe. This is not a page about the different cultures, or it would be six times as long, if not more. It's about the races, or sapient species, only.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 14:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Obviously you have alot more logic than I do, but my point still stands that Jolene is more Gerudo than the fortune teller, right?--Phantom Kirby 00:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Since we're talking about race, there is no way to say for sure that someone is more Gerudo than another, at least not with clothing and enviornment. DurinsBane87 00:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Jolene has almost all the features and behavior, excluding the hair, and Astrid has everything but the dark skin (then again, they seem to have green as often as orange skin, so I would suggest allowing some variability.)Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 01:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The thing thing about Astrid is that she is more likely part of the Cobble Kingdom not a gerudo of course since the cobble page isnt finished yet she is not listed there yetLegendLiver 12:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Astrid directly says that she and Kayo are Cobble.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Wind Tribe

While human is never really used in TMC to include the Wind Tribe, there is this for the Armos:

These soldier statues here were built by the Minish ages ago to help humans. It's kind of a secret, but there's a switch inside that turns them on or off.

Appears in the Wind Ruins. Built by the Minish for the Wind Tribe long ago. They look like stone statues, but if you get too close, they move!

However, we still need some evidence that the Yamitami are considered part of the Human Race.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 16:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Monsters as a race

I say yes because a sufficent number have shown free wil and intelligence. They should be added for the Dark world alone. Many monsters have been shown to live in peace with Hyrule or even help link.

Delsait 20:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not a race, though. "Monster" is a very arbitrary definition, it can refer to virtually anything, and certainly isn't mentioned as a race in any of the Zelda games. Haipa Doragon (talk) 20:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

If you think the term is too general. Why not add stalfos,dodongos,moblins as seperate entries. Though I suggest putting them all under one group. Delsait 20:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Those are already listed under Enemies in The Legend of Zelda series; I would say anything on friendly monsters should go either in there or one of the characters articles, likely the Recurring characters one. Haipa Doragon (talk) 20:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

We should at least mention the transformed hylians in the Dark world. Delsait 20:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The idea doesn't fit elsewhere. I suggest putting here as it needs some mention. I'm going to put them in if no one has any objections.

Delsait 03:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

They can at least be called "The Dark Tribe" - which is what ALttP calls them. If you want, you can subdivide that to "-blins, -robes, -nuts", but there is ample evidence for them to be considered a race (MUCH more than for Keaton to be on this page).Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 23:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Artichoke I gave sufficent reasons for them belong here. I'm inserting them into other tribes. Delsait (talk) 04:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

"Animal Tribe"

I really don't see how this is a race; it's little more than a few arbitrary connections between various groups of animals in the series. Seeing as various real-life animals do exist in the series, a section on them may be appropriate, but they're definitely not one collective race. Haipa Doragon (talk) 17:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. This article is about actual races, different species and not just a collective grouping of something. .:Alex:. 17:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, the monkeys, at least, are a "race". The "sentient, talking animals" commonly show up as a group, and have their own village in one game, which is analogous to nearly all of the other races. Again, this is fantasy, not real life, so race/tribe/peoples is whatever the creators define it as - and if you want an analogous example, look at the talking animals in Narnia, or the Sea Zora/River Zora situation within Zelda itself. They are considered one group with very strong connections, even though they can be physically variant.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 07:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

There's little connection inbetween the various arbitrary animals of Zelda, though, in comparison to Narnia. For example, try stating what connections there are between the beavers in Majora's Mask and, say, Kaepora Gaebora. Haipa Doragon (talk) 12:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Except that they've even got to the point where they have their own village, and are usually seen together (talking animals around Nayru). If it must be argued, we at least have confirmation of the bird and monkey tribes - Kaepora Gaebora clearly refers to himself as among the "bird folk", and monkeys have shown about as much society as other races.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The current section seems to mostly be speculation, though; it is assuming all the animals mentioned are part of one collective race, which is untrue. As I said, I would not mind if this section is renamed to "Animals" or something similar, although it is really content better suited for the characters pages. Haipa Doragon (talk) 17:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I have collected alot of Information on the animals and evidence supporting them as a race ill post it here and will wait for comments.LegendLiver (talk) 22:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Animals (will be properly headed)

The Animal's are composed of the various talking animals that appear within the series. They can be found in grouping in Link’s Awakening, Twilight Princess, Majoras Mask , Oracle of Ages, Oracle of Seasons and The Minish Cap. In the The Minish Cap however there are no groups of animals.

• Animal Tribe

While the Animals seem to have a society in many of the games, they only show true civilization in Link’s Awakening. In the game, many animals reside within the Animal Village. However, the nature Koholint Island is that of a dream, so it is uncertain whether the town ever existed.

• The Monkeys

The Monkeys appear as a "race" in Twilight Princess, Majoras Mask and Oracle of Ages where they help out link on his adventure. They in habit the Faron Woods but they specifically live in the Forest Temple. They assist link in many ways like making swings for him to travel across platforms and guiding him to treasure as well as being his way to get to the boss battle. They are lead by Ook the Baboon who is at first evil but later helps link fight Diababa. In Majoras Mask there are a few monkey’s that live within the Woods of Mystery. They hold a friendship to the Deku Royal Family. The monkeys also seem to have a basic monarchy in Oracle of Ages, where a tribe monkeys is led by their Princess. Twilight Princess-Pop. 9 Majoras Mask -Pop.3 Oracle of Ages-Pop.21

• Notable Monkeys

Ook the Baboon

• The Cats

The Cats appear as a "race" in Twilight Princess. They can be broken up into three factions/groups.

• The first main is The Hyrule Castle Town Group. They are a group of strays that are found in their leader Gengle's front yard. This group is the smaller of the two main cat groups.

-Pop. 6

• The second main group is The Hidden Village/Old Kakoriko Group. They are the majority of the population of The Hidden Village/Old Kakoriko. They are surprisingly lead by a Cucco not another cat. This is the largest of the cat groups.

-Pop. 25

• The third group is the Pet Cats Group. This group includes Thelma’s cat Louise and Sera’s cat [The name you choose]. Technically Gengle fits in this group but he is the leader of the strays so he fits in with them.

-Pop. 2 -Total Cat Pop. 33

• Notable Cats

Gengel

• Cuccos

The Cuccos are featured in many games but is only a “race” in Twilight Princess. They are very sporadically located and there is only one location that’s population is more than 3. Their leader is believed to be the Golden Cucco who is used to get to the sacred grove though other cuccos have leadership positions such as the cucco leader of the cats. They reside at Kakoriko Village, Ordan Village, Falbi's Flight House, outside The Forest Temple, and in The Hidden Village/Old Kakoriko. Pop. 11

• Notable Cuccos

Golden Cucco

Cucco Leader of Cats

• Frogs

The Frogs appear in Twilight Princess,Ocarina of Time and Majoras Mask. In Ocarina of Time the frogs appear as a chorus that sing along to songs played on your Ocarina. In Majoras Mask they also appear as a chorus but you must find and assemble them using "Don Gero’s Mask". In Twilight Princess the frogs are tiny animals on the bank of the river that flows through Ordan Village. When talked to the frogs will tell you that the people of the village often drop rupees around the river.

• Beavers

The Beavers appear in Majoras Mask as part of a side quest to collect bottles. There are 2 beavers called the Beaver Brothers. They both wear clothes and they revere bottles as treasure.

• Other Animals

In some games there exist animals that are not grouped. In the Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons Dimitri ,Moosh and Ricky all talk and help link. Also, the penguin Blaino owns his own dojo. The owl Kaepora Gaebore appears and talks to link many times during many games but in Ocarina of Time it is said he does this because he is the reincarnation of some ancient sage.

LegendLiver (talk) 22:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Undue emphasis on Twilight Princess, resulting in falsities in certain places, such as Monkeys. Frogs have not appeared as truly talking animals (only as animals that Link learns how to talk to). Cuccos are NOT a race in TP - they show no hint of society, besides the one cucco who leads a gang of 20 pet cats - which really doesn't count, as they are not in any way independent, and does not count as truly talking animals. All cats in TP are pet cats, and say so. Numerating the population is overkill.

If you must, trim what I have already added - but this writeup includes minutiae that is largely OR, biased towards TP with detrimental effects, or not even qualifying as societies.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 00:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I can understand removing some of the excess talking animals (though the existence of the beavers, Animal Village, and Blaino point against it), but at the least, monkeys are clearly one of the races in the series, and are definitely recurring.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 00:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't prove much about how animals are a single, collective race; as KrytenKoro said, it is largely trivial information, and there is little on how they function as a society. Haipa Doragon (talk) 19:13, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It would be like the Human article with the multiple sub-sections of the animlas.LegendLiver (talk) 22:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Just get rid of it. If you read it, you'll find it looks ridiculous. It contradicts itself and is confusing and almost asking questions about whether any of it makes sense. I mean this is just grouping all of the random animals in the series together, it's even indicated in the article itself "Furthermore, none of the animals within either game show any hints of society". They are not one race and they certainly do not function as one entire race, it's just a grouping of all the animals of the series. It's completely trivial and does not belong in this article. .:Alex:. 19:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The whole entire page is trivial not everyone can be sure about everything which is why this is posted here. it is a group of random animals that have shown basic sentience. and "Furthermore, none of the animals within either game show any hints of society" isnt in the article and is completely dumb first of all because of Animal Village even though it is a dream, second of all the tribe of monkeys has there own village and princess third the cats of Twilight Princess have groups both of which have a leader a.k.a SOCIETY!!! LegendLiver 21:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh it's in the article. Hence why I COPIED it DIRECTLY from there. .:Alex:. 13:50, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The "hint of society" is in reference to TP and TMC only. The function as a race in LA, and function as much as any other race in both oracle games (minus humans, of course) - especially the monkeys, which are clearly shown to be a race. Cut it down to "Monkeys" and "Bird folk" if you wish (monkeys are shown to have royalty, and bird folk is out and out said in FSA), but they are members of a race.

Incidentally, Keaton was on this page for the longest time, when only one member had ever appeared. Skull Kid (which I somewhat agree with, even though the games, especially MM, imply it to be a spirit) is also still here, with at most four members. I think we can agree that characters who show some hint of society, in that they can speak to other races, maybe have tools, houses, or clothes, and especially if they form tribes, like the monkeys - these should definitely qualify as races.

On the other side - the TP cats do NOT show society. Both sets are groups of pet cats that hang out together, and have nothing to show for it. This is like saying that schoolchildren are their own society, even though they are completely dependent on their parents. A "tribe" should be minimally dependent on other tribes - monkeys fulfill this in nearly every appearance, as do many of the talking animals. Pet cats do not.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The difference between the groups of cats and the groups of school children such as the bombers is that while they both have leaders and members children are just a group within a race while the cat groups are groups of a race —Preceding unsigned comment added by LegendLiver (talk • contribs) 21:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Except that that's what we're trying to discuss. Yes, they are a species, but race/tribe by this article denotes a species that has achieved sentience, society, and preferably culture and the ability to communicate with the other races (everything else here can speak "Hyrulian"). They are merely pet cats that hang around while their owners aren't looking - in sharp contrast to every other race here. If we start including every animal in the series as a separate race, we might as well call this "animals in the zelda series".Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 06:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

HoHo, Goron, Yook, and The Cobble Kingdom

The Gorons are not a tribe. The Ho Ho Tribe and Ho Ho are the correct spelling i found that out after a bit of research(played the game). but still they are "The Ho Ho Tribe" not "Ho Ho Tribe". Ho Ho Tribe doesnt even sond right The Yook are being referenced as a race not the Yook tribe so Yetis and Yook are corect. Also Yook is used as plural as well as Yooks in Phantom Hourglass so do not change exsisting type. Yook may be treated as tribe so what the heck I was wondering since the cobble kingdom is one of the Three Tribes in Phantom Hourglass and is reminisant of the Kingdom in Ikanna Canyon in Majoras Mask if it could be considered a race. i know that they are deceased but they as a race were around and the ghosts of there people are still alive i will make the article but first i thought id ask for approval and maybe a spot of info.LegendLiver (talk) 22:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

HoHo being the correct spelling would make the most sense, because Old Man HoHo, is spelled that way. And I always thought Yook was a tribe (so it would be called the Yook Tribe), however I am not entire sure on that one either. Finally, I agree that the Gorons are not a tribe, but rather a race (so they should be referred to as Gorons, and not Goron Tribe). Artichoker (Talk | Contributions) 23:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The Cobbles are specifically said to not be human within the game, so they are their own race. Astrid and Kayo are members, and Zauz indicates he may be as well. Ho Ho is the correct spelling, as given by the game. Gorons are called a "tribe" in nearly every appearance - FSA, PH, TP, MM, OoT...Tribe is used as a synonym for race, not as a synonym for "village" or "small family". Yook is called tribe, as is Anouki.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 00:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Here, I'll compile what races are mentioned, per game, and how their group is translated, just for reference.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 01:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

FSA

• 鳥の種族 (Bird Folk)
• ゲルド族 (Gerudo tribe)
• 闇族 (Dark tribe)
• ズナ族 (Zuna tribe)
• ゴロン族 Goron (tribe of rock folk)

Ho Ho

But, the Ho Ho are "The Ho Ho Tribe" not "Ho Ho Tribe". Ho Ho Tribe doesnt even sound right.

...that's what is done for every other tribe on the page. The "the" is completely redundant. For example, in the japanese, it is just "Hoohoo zoku", not "Za Hoohoo zoku".Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

i dont read japanese so im gonna say that the isnt important enough to rase a discusion about.LegendLiver 12:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone just missed the whole point. Artichoker (Talk | Contributions) 15:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Just played the game right now. It is Ho Ho Tribe, it's even in blue letters too. "The" is not part of the name in any way, shape or form. .:Alex:. 19:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

see that is my way of telling everyone that i have dropped my point and have moved on and yes i know that it is no The Ho Ho tribe i just remembered the game differently than it was made.LegendLiver 21:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Zelda Legends has the text resource section for the community. They have text dumps for each game, all english and many japanese (sometimes european as well).Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Tribe or no Tribe

I do not beleive that all races should be labeled tribe when all these years weve been fine with calling them a race. if they should be tribes wouldnt the name of the page be tribes and just because they are called a tribe doesnt mean that is their races corret label ends in tribe also i beleive that if the labelis races than tribes should be capitalized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LegendLiver (talk • contribs) 01:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

First of all, not all races are labeled as "tribe". Only the ones that have been referred as a tribe in the games. And tribes ARE races. "tribe" should not be capitalized unless it is part of the name (ex. Wind Tribe), otherwise it should be used to describe the races appropriately. It should NOT be capitalized in those cases. Artichoker (Talk | Contributions) 01:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It was originally a caveat so that we could say "Hylian race", and get rid of that edit war. However, "tribe" is treated the same as that of the Wind Tribe, Yamitami Tribe, evil/ancient/dark tribe. In all fairness, "race" was only used in two games (and sparingly in the second, with tribe beginning to replace it). All games since MM have used "Tribe", and it might be fair to move the page to reflect that.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 01:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay i admit they have been called tribe alot lately but that doesnt mean that tribe shouldnt be treated as a title like King and it should be capitalized.LegendLiver (talk) 02:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It's meant to differentiate between "race" and "tribe", though no group still uses "race". It's not just "a lot lately" - even since ALttP, "tribe" was the normal translation of "zoku". This changed in OoT, where "race" was used, but already by MM, race was only used twice, in Keaton questions, while tribe was used every-fricking-where else. OoT and MM also happen to be the only ones (or at least, primarily) which call a group "the Zora", rather than "the Zora tribe". Zora is used to refer to a singular member, after OoT and MM, while "Zora tribe" refers to the species, and thus the subjects of this article. "tribe" is correct, as it differentiates between a member and its group.

Additional: The "Hylia" is the only group that still drops the "zoku". This is because, while nouns such as "A Zoran" were dropped after OoT, "Hylian" was retained, and so Hylia still only referred to the group as a whole. There are also variant translations, such as "bird folk", but that occurs once in FSA, so isn't really a problem.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Well its kinda obvious that im not gonna win so do whatever the heck you want but "ill be back" for something other then this

Keatons

Keaton has a link to this list, but this list contains no entries on the Keatons. JayKeaton (talk) 04:28, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

...Just wondering....

In the minish section, when it says "the sacred realm" is it talking about the sacred realm, or just something called a sacred realm.

Just want a clarification. It's been a while since I played the game. --Superbub (talk) 22:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Sheik and the Sheikah

I note that, under the Sheikah section, only Impa is listed as a known Sheikah. Are we then working under the assumption that the Sheikah indicates a race of people rather than people who have gone through a certain training? I mean not to imply that this is made up, of course, but I'm not personally aware of it ever being explained one way or the other. What I'm getting at, of course, is that Sheik, though Princess Zelda's alternate form, certainly shows all signs of Sheikah training, likely given to her by Impa, but is not listed as such. I'm not sure if this is right or wrong, but I would be interested in discussing the reasoning for it here. 12.217.11.107 (talk) 09:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I apologize- that was me, and I knew not that I was not logged in. Midaki (talk) 09:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

OoT specifically calls the Sheikah a race, several times, and they are known as the "Shadow Folk". Impa is said once or twice to be the last one remaining. I should think that that's pretty clear. A text dump should provide sufficient quotes - if you can't find them, just notify me and I'll look for them.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 18:16, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll trust you on that. A nonissue. Midaki (talk) 04:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Hoiger Howgendoogen

This Ho Ho tribesman who lost his telescope is not Hoiger Howgendoogen. Hoiger Howgendoogen is Nyeve's sister, the owner of the kaleidescope given to Link in exchange for the Hero's New Clothes, and is given to said tribesman in exchange for Nyave's Guard notebok. Xparasite9 (talk) 03:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

...Nyeve's SISTER? It's "The Hero", and it's his brother. In any case, no. The Ho Ho specifically calls himself Hoiger Howgendoogen (he says "look, it has my name on it:...", and the name is obviously a Ho Ho name.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 03:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The Sprirts Section

In the first paragraph of the Spirits section it splits the Spirits into two groups Gods and Gaurdian Spirits. I do not see why these words have likes to articles with the same name when they have nothing to do with Zelda. I am correcting it.LegendLiver (talk) 01:28, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Kokiri

I moved an interesting fact about the Kokiri from what I belive to be the wrong page. I pasted it in the Kokiri section, but it came out bold. Please help because it is out of my power Gregory E. Miller (talk) 22:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC))

Hello, I have cleaned up the information you added. Also, what is this "wrong page" of which you speak? Artichoker (Discussion) 23:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It was part of Saria's section on the character's page. He is right, it didn't really belong there.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 13:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Ho Ho Tribe are HUMANS

Tribe does not nessesarily (sorry for spelling) mean race. They appear to be humans who are somehow related. They are not a different species. --Kuriza (talk) 08:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

And where is your proof? Can we have some in-game text, etc.? Artichoker^[talk] 15:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

"Races" != "Species." There are dozens, if not hundreds or thousands, of different human races in existence today. Gh5046 (talk) 16:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

That's great. Thank you for using real world terminology to solve a video-game world dispute.

Anyway, in the context of the games, they are not treated as humans. They seem to describe themselves as separate - however, if you can find official sources that claim them as a race of Zeldaverse humans, then go ahead and put them in the human section. However, tribes are not considered to be human races until explicitly said to be - we've had several that appear to be human, but specifically aren't (the Cobble, for instance).Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 23:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Just keep in mind that this is Wikipedia, not a fan site. The article should be as encyclopedic as possible. Gh5046 (talk) 00:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Which is why we should not be using OR like applying real-world terminology to a video-game situation, and should report what terms the game uses.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 03:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

this debate happened since i first posted the article about the Hoho's. It never states anywhere in either of the games that the Hoho's apear in if they are human. in Twilight Princess there is no distinction made between Hylians and the Ordan Humans. However, that does not mean that all human-like races are humans. For all we know each of the human tribes could be different races but until proof is presented we should leave it the same.LegendLiver (talk) 23:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Telma

I was looking at Telma when playing TP, and she looked like she might be a Sheikah. Does anyone know anything about this? IPodxjunkie (talk) 02:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

No; as far as I know, she's just a Hylian. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 02:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Merge?

I've moved Hyrule to Universe of The Legend of Zelda series, and am considering merging this into that and filling the Demographics and government section. Comments? - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• I'd strongly support this merge. I think merging this into one article would reduce the undue weight on in-universe information and bring things down to the level of WP:CONCISEPLOT. It would also make it easier for these articles to assert WP:NOTABILITY with reliable third-party sources, and meet our guideliens in WP:VGSCOPE that say we try not to get into detail about every enemy/move/location/item/etc. in a game. Randomran (talk) 04:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

This might be a good idea, but I'm not too sure about the Races section being merged too.

On a note related to your recent edit - while I accept the removal of the "notable" sections (though they did not rely on trivia and were instead links to existing articles), your removal of the "humans" header was not only against consensus but against reliable sources, and the "unknown tribes" who "only appear in one game" are still integral to each of those games' plots. If anything in this article is notable, they would be.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 23:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

And Merfolk? All that can be said about them is that one mermaid appears in one game for one short period of time. The rest is speculation and OR. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I did not see that, but having one or two short sections about merfolk and other small races would not kill the article, and is an acceptable sacrifice for comprenesiveness.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate list of information. Nowhere does it suggest that it has to include every single race that has even the slightest existence in the Zelda series, nor should it. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

...the topic of this article has been deemed, at least for now, notable. While there is no requirement for an article to be totally comprehensive, there is no rule against it. The information on Merfolk or Yamitami is reasonably informative, and is, again, an acceptable sacrifice to "must be absolutely sparse!" in this pursuit. In this case, comprehensiveness is not a bad thing.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 05:39, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Sigh... Just because they don't say "don't talk about Mermaids on the Zelda races article!" doesn't mean that this list should include them. Should TWW's character list have every character who is named? No. Even though it would be comprehensive, it's also a waste of bandwidth and the characters not listed are not significant characters, just like these are not significant races. THe reason that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source of information is to prevent content like THIS. Comprehensive =/= "anything that could vaguely fit into the article". - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let me explain this clearer: there's about what, 250 characters in TWW? And we only cover 30 of them. That's about 12% covered, 88% left out.

For this article, though, about 2 out of 32 are disputed as trivial. That's about 6% hypothetically left out, and 94% left in.

Do you see how incredibly ridiculous it is to compare this article's situation to the TWW characters page? Does this illustrate my point that it's not going to kill wikipedia to include these two short sections in the article, which provide information about a lesser known group among those the article covers?

I'm not saying "if the rules don't explicitly forbid it, it must be here", and it's almost insulting that you would think I'm that stupid. I am saying "6% extra for the sake of comprehensiveness is worth the sacrifice." If there was some precedent for a slippery slope, like I was suggesting an "eating habits" section that would bloat up the article, fine, that would be a bad idea. I'm not, though.08:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

If we include Mermaid, we have to include basically anything more notable than it. AKA - every single race in the series' history. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if including that extra 6%, in a series which frequently focuses on the different tribes as part of the plot (specifically as well in this case) is not filling me with utmost dread.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 08:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The fact that it doesn't "fill you with utmost dread" doesn't decide that it's okay to ignore what Wikipedia is not. - A Link to the Past (talk) 16:30, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, this is important. WP:NOTABLE does not work that way. If the article's overall subject is deemed to be notable, then the article is notable. Not every sentence must itself be notable.

WP:NOT nowhere seems to discourage "comprehensive lists" such as this article, which would even be covered by the same guidelines as the popular "List of characters" articles.

A loosely related NOT guideline states "Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List."

Analagous to this, the various races are associated with the list topic, "Races in The Legend of Zelda series".

That's pretty much the only NOT guideline on lists that I can find.

On WP List, it obliquely allows for Lists to be comprehensive:

"The list title should not be misleading (and should normally not include abbreviations), but overly precise list titles can be less useful (and make the list difficult to find); the precise inclusion criterion of the list should be spelled out in the lead section (see below), not the title. For instance, words like "complete," "famous" and "notable" are normally excluded from list titles, and instead the lead makes clear that that list is complete, or is limited to famous or notable members."

So as far as WP:LIST is concerned, we just have to make sure the lead says it's a complete list, and the wiki guidelines have no problem with it.

This does apply:

"Lists, whether they are embedded lists or stand-alone lists, are encyclopedic content as are paragraphs and articles, and they are equally subject to Wikipedia's content policies such as Verifiability, No original research, Neutral point of view, and others."

So, there is no relevant guidelines or policies sympathetic to your argument that I can find, but feel free to bring them up if there are.

We do need to do massive cleanup and sourcing for this article, removing the OR and copyediting the prose. However, outright removal is not called for, nor is it needed.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 11:39, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source of information, that in itself is relevant. What this list is is an indiscriminate list containing anything that constitutes a race in The Legend of Zelda series. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:12, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I guess what I'm asking is that you provide the actual policy that is equivalent to that, and show that this list violates it, instead of just stating it over and over. I'm not seeing how this is indiscriminate - it's the named races in The Legend of Zelda series - that's rather discriminate to me.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 19:09, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Just curious, but how is this list discriminate? Listing every single race no matter how insignificant they are is not discriminate in the least. You have no guide to what races should be in, merely being a Zelda race is enough to get included. If that's good enough, do I expect you to also throw every enemy into the Zelda enemies list? And the Zelda TWW characters? The TWW characters article is of characters in TWW, not "notable characters in TWW". - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Not every enemy has any significance to the game besides being there. Not every character has any significance to the game, or at least the main game, besides being there. Every single tribe plays a part in the main storyline in at least one game.

As demonstrated above, I fail to see how the situation here is remotely comparable to the suggestion to include every enemy or character in their respective articles.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 21:38, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Mermaids sure play an important part in the plot. That is, as one minor character in optional quest in one game for one and only one purpose. Mermaids are completely irrelevant to any plot, even in the weakest definition. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

...two games, one of them the culmination of a necessary sidequest, and the person whom a major area is named after, and the second, the point of a major sidequest, and sister to a major player in the game. (Yes, she is not actually a mermaid, but mermaids as a species are shown to be important in that regard).

Is the Yamitami or unknown still even in dispute? Is this one, short section really seem to be violating wikipedia policies by existing? You do realize that almost nowhere on wiki is this absolute dedication to notability (again, not actually required within articles - only the three true policies are) adhered to?Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 13:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

We're talking about mermaids because it establishes that there's no logical criteria for inclusion. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Then I'm sorry, I just don't agree with you on that. If you'd like to bring up the various sections you feel violate policy, and state which policy they violate and how, then I'd be willing to work with that. If you'd like to do a push to copyedit and source this article, I'd also work with you on that.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 19:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

There's no criteria for inclusion because inclusion is based on being a race in The Legend of Zelda series. I'm at a loss of why Wikipedia not being an indiscriminate source of information applies. You let EVERY single race of people on this article and don't even once ask if they're worth including. Why are Mermaids different from TWW characters? A minor character in TWW is more significant than a minor race in one series. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not. Many of the characters in TWW, and many other Zelda games, are there to be there. No purpose but body count. Every time an entire tribe is added, though, it has some part in the plot. Maybe a small part, but the part is there - a necessary part of the main plot of LA, and mentioned in several places, such as Animal Village (just now remembered that bit), and referenced by a few main characters and a side-quest in PH. However, even if the part was as tiny as a TWW character, there would only be one or two of them in the entire list, a vanishingly small fraction, as demonstrated above. In such a case, when comprehensiveness would not greatly affect the length and readability of the article, it is allowed to choose comprehensiveness over absolute conciseness. Articles with a concisity problem, such as Organization XIII, are the type of article that need to be constantly trimmed to stick to the vital facts - the difference between vital and comprehensive is vast with such an article. However, with an article like this, the difference between vital and comprehensive is almost negligible.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 22:58, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Pig Men Warriors

Obviously whoever changed this article is misinformed. The "Pig Men" are called Moblins and i will change this. LegendLiver (talk) 00:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I seem to have been the misinformed one. But i dont believe that the pig warriors should be include. also i hope to put the information back into the miniblin bokoblin and bulbin sections. whoever deleted them did not need to.LegendLiver (talk) 00:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Pig Warriors appear in several games, and were not merged with Moblins until TWW.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

i dont have any proof but are the two ever stated to be different? also i meant have a seperate minisection not delete them.LegendLiver (talk) 23:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in every appearance they have before TWW, when they were merged. As I stated earlier.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 08:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

What I meant was, is there any in game text that states the differnece between the two monsters.LegendLiver (talk) 23:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Not in-game, but there is official text like the Hyrule Encyclopedia or the official Nintendo Player's Guides.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 11:27, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

ok then. i was just thinking that since they were seperated at one point they should have seperate articles.LegendLiver (talk) 17:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)