Talk:Religion in Somalia

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Religion in Somalia[edit]

One editor has deleted this page and redirected it to the main Religion in Somalia page. However the Religion in Somalia page does not have a section on irreligion. Therefore in light of the sharia law against irreligion in Somalia and the notability of Somalian Ayaan Hirsi Ali in promoting irreligion in her country, does this article deserve its own page? I think yes. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 13:07, 26 December 2013 (UTC) This editor (Middayexpress) keeps deleting this page without using a talk page discussion (see revision history of page and talk page). This is a note as record of those actions in case that user does so again. Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 13:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

The irreligion page for Somalia is an undue WP:FORK, as there are only a handful of irreligious individuals in the country. The overwhelming majority of people in Somalia are Muslim (~99%), with the remainder mainly Christian as well as a few adherents of traditional religions [1]. Ali also hasn't lived in Somalia since she was a child, so she is not representative of the religious adherents there much less on the continent at large. The atheist Leo Igwe, who was born and raised in Nigeria, is more appropriate for the main page. Additionally, it is not true that "during the Siad Barre regime in the 1950s and 1960s atheism was more widespread in the country", nor does the source claim this. All it indicates is that "Siad could not square his people's strong Muslim beliefs with Moscow's prescriptive atheism" [2]. What Barre actually did was attempt to reconcile the official state religion (Islam) with the official state ideology (Marxism) by adapting Marxist precepts to local circumstances. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 12:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Here is a reference to Siad Barre: Mohamed Haji Mukhtar, Historical Dictionary of Somalia (2003), pp. 40-41, books.google.com/books?isbn=0810866048: "In addition, the adoption of "scientific socialism" by the military government and the signing of the friendship agreement with the Soviet Union in the 1970a brought Somalia into conflict with the wealthier and conservative Arab states. Also, Orthodox Arabs were shocked by Mohamed Siad Barre's execusion of 10 imams who preached against his secularism in 1975." I've returned the information you deleted on that page in a section here on "Irreligion in Somalia", regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 13:23, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Here is the section I have drafted:

Irreligion in Somalia[edit]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a well known proponent of irreligion in Somalia

Irreligion in Somalia is uncommon among Somalians, as Islam is the predominant faith. It is difficult to quantify the number of atheists or agnostics in Somalia, as they are not officially counted in the census of the country. There is a great stigma attached to being an atheist in Somalia so many Somalian atheists communicate to each other via the internet. During the Siad Barre regime in the 1950s and 1960s atheism was more widespread in the country, but following the rise of Islamist movements in the country, it has become dangerous to espouse such beliefs. [1][2]

Regards, Andajara120000 (talk) 13:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

  • You got some more about Siad Barre? I have seen many accusing him to be Kaafir, Kaafir is notable term if the person is actually accused by some known Islamic Preacher. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:34, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

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Neither source asserts the above. Barre was himself a practicing Muslim, and Islam was actually the state religion in Somalia during his administration, as it still is. Barre ordered the imams' executions because they belonged to the same clan that was leading the dissenters against his regime, not due to atheistic considerations. Ironically, a group of military officials from the same clan tried to overthrow him only a few months later, so he was not imagining things: "The jittery NSS could do nothing with the large crowds that had assembled outside the mosques. So the electricity supply was cut to silence the voices coming out of the mosques. Subsequently ten Shaikhs ( 'ulama) were rounded up, summarily tried and executed and scores of others were imprisoned and tortured. But this callous step cost Siad Barre a lot both domestically and abroad" [3]. Middayexpress (talk) 13:53, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, this clan issue, always surrounded Siad Barre and even today in Somalia. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:57, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Anyways, Middayexpress must explain why "irreligion in somalia" was removed. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
I just did. The links do not indicate that; especially the assertion that "in the 1950s and 1960s atheism was more widespread in the country". This is completely untrue. Atheism does not and has never had any significant presence in Somalia. Please see irreligion and irreligion by country for global percentages. Middayexpress (talk) 14:58, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Read http://books.google.com/books?id=wEih57-GWQQC&pg=PA22 Bladesmulti (talk) 15:29, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
It says that clerics feared that the Barre administration's cooperation with communist countries would eventually lead Somali society toward atheism. This was a common concern of predominantly Muslim countries during the period and is an allusion to the future, not the present (unfounded fears as it turns out). It also says that Barre "declared that work and belief were compatible with Islam because the Koran condemned exploitation and money lending and urged compassion, unity, and cooperation among Muslims", and that "religion, according to President Siyyad Barre, was an integral part of the Somali worldview, but it belonged in the private sphere, whereas scienfitic socialism dealt with material concerns such as poverty". Like I wrote, Barre attempted to reconcile the official state religion (Islam) with the official state ideology (Marxism) by adapting Marxist precepts to local circumstances. Middayexpress (talk) 15:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
So add it? At least 3 editors want "irreligion" to be listed here. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Middayexpress (talk) 17:05, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Dislocusre: Midday and Blades requested my comment on the development of this article. Looking at the source above, there is definite mention of socialism, Islamism and Islamic socialism in the given source but I don't see anything about irreligion. And the comments about Ayan Hirsi Ali are correct - she's irrelevant to Somalia. So I will be direct, do we have sources - a link to Google Books or something easily accessible - specifically addressing the issue irreligion inside Somalia itself (and not among Somalis outside Somalia)? MezzoMezzo (talk) 12:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't believe there is. According to the Pew Research Forum, less than 0.1% of Somalia's population in 2010 were adherents of Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or unaffiliated with any religion [4]. Middayexpress (talk) 12:58, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── For sure there was history of atheism in Somalia, under siad barre, and his execution of religion leader should be highlighted? Bladesmulti (talk) 13:04, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

There was a fear of lapsing into atheism/disbelief, like in most predominantly Muslim countries. But no mention of irreligion itself, as MezzoMezzo just explained. Middayexpress (talk) 14:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Sounds about to be correct, such content can be added to Siad Barre's page instead. Bladesmulti (talk) 17:55, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
    • ^ Mohamed Haji Mukhtar, Historical Dictionary of Somalia (2003), pp. 40-41, books.google.com/books?isbn=0810866048: "In addition, the adoption of "scientific socialism" by the military government and the signing of the friendship agreement with the Soviet Union in the 1970a brought Somalia into conflict with the wealthier and conservative Arab states. Also, Orthodox Arabs were shocked by Mohamed Siad Barre's execusion of 10 imams who preached against his secularism in 1975."
    • ^ Jonathan Stevenson, Losing Mogadishu: Testing U.S. Policy in Somalia (1995), p. 31, books.google.com/books?isbn=1557507880