Talk:Roman Catholic Diocese of Westminster/Archive 1

--Pdjenner 14:14, 28 December 2005 (UTC) I am not happy with the passage which refers to the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster as Primate of England and Wales and Spiritual Leader of Great Britain. I am fairly certain this is simply not factually correct.

The paragraph says the Archbishop is "the spiritual leader of all Roman Catholics in Great Britain". The statement is a true reflection of his official status. --JohnArmagh 11:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I will concede that the title "leader of the Church in England and Wales" is appropriate for the Cardinal, however, this title is derived from his election by his brother bishops as President of the Episcopal Conference of England & Wales, and not from his appointment as Archbishop of Westminster. You will note immediately after Cardinal Hume's death the Archbishop of Southwark was appointed as President of the Episcopal Conference, and the conference was very specific in its press release on the appointment of Cormac Murphy O'Connor as Archbishop:

"Neither Archbishop is 'leader of the Church in England and Wales'. The President of the Bishops' Conference of England and Wales is Archbishop Michael Bowen of Southwark." (see CMO 15/2/2000).

However, I am still not happy with "Spiritual leader" as a title, as the spiritual leader of Catholics is the local diocesan bishop. At the same time, I still dispute the title "primate", as this is an honourary title conferred by Rome. I am still researching the evidence to refute the entry.

Sorry if this seems trivial to anyone, however, accuracy not sentimentality should be the aim of anyone contributing to this site. It does the Church no favours to encourage language which is not accurate? --Pdjenner 22:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The 'spiritual leader' or 'leader' of English Catholics is the Pope. Roydosan

Renaming this page

I was thinking of renaming this page as 'Archdiocese of Westminster'. This would follow the pattern of the other British RC dioceses.

External Links

Put link to LMS back in as they are most active in the Archdiocese of Westminster and have a very visible presence. Maybe people should add other pertinent links rather than deleting this one.

LMS would be a relevant link on pages dealing with Traditional Catholicism or near obsolete rites: it is not an agency of the Archdiocese of Westminster, and it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to act as a web directory to every Catholic organisation from the page of every Catholic Diocese. Kevin McE 20:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

You see you betray your own prejudices by describing it as (or at least alluding to it as) a near obsolete rite. You are correct the LMS is not an agency of the Archdiocese of Westminster but it is part of the life of the diocese. As you say all Catholic organisations should not be linked from the pages of all Catholic diocese; but relevant ones should be and I would say that the LMS is, like it or not, certainly relevant in the context of the Archdiocese of Westminster. Roydosan 09:26 20 April 2006

It would be interesting to hear a statistical comparison that does not reveal the rite preferred by the LMS to be near obsolete, and discussion pages are precisely the right forum on which editors might reveal their own preferences and biases. The encyclopedic pages are not an appropriate forum for seeking to promote any cause, except that of the knowledge and understanding of all, and posting links to the LMS on the entry for each diocese is not serving that purpose. The LMS is one of 140 organisations listed on the diocese' website[1], it is not appropriate to list 140 of them here, nor is it appropriate or NPOV to list just one. Kevin McE 18:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

But listing a link is not promoting anything - or are you one of those people who would rather the Latin mass was barred from being mentioned anywhere that might be mainstream Catholic in the hope that it will become obsolete? If so the deletion of the links says far more about your own biases and prejudices than it does about mine. And as for the Latin mass being obsolete that is very far from being the case. In fact it has undergone something of a resurgence in recent years. See here and here. What have you got against this? Roydosan 09:42 21 April 2006

Frankly, yes, as a personal opinion I would prefer that the missals previous to that currently promulgated become obsolete, but in terms of wiki, my priority is that a false impression of the status and scale of this organisation not be given. You have provided evidence that new organisations have grown, that is the nature of new organisations, but I would suggest that a statistical comparison of how many Catholics attend Mass on a typical Sunday in the Archdiocese of Westminster according to which rite would give an impression of the profile that the LMS merits in an article in wikipedia. Kevin McE 18:15, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm interested as to why you would like the Latin mass to become obsolete. I've come across this attitude quite a bit and it still absolutely puzzles me. If you don't like the Latin mass then you are free not to attend it but why then do you wish that others who do wish to attend it should be prevented from doing so. I'm interested because most of the people I've met who attend the Latin mass have nothing against the Novus Ordo mass. I myself happily attend both. But those who are opposed to the Latin mass seem intent that not only should they not attend it but that no-one else should do so either. Where this rather uncharitable attitude springs from I have no idea. I'd encourage you to actually attend a Latin mass - you might be pleasantly surprised by what you find there. As to your comments about the activities of the LMS in the Archdiocese of Westminster - it has a highly visible presence at diocesan events such as the Catholic Organisations fair (one of about 30 Catholic organisations represented); it organises Confirmations in the traditional rite once a year and organises masses throughout the diocese - see here. Roydosan 14:26 22 April 2006

Parish Links

Again why delete these? Just add more - putting a link in for parishes is valid and does not necessarily indicate theological bias.

To that purpose, I have put in a link that is to the link page for the parishes of the diocese, and not only those which cater to the liturgical preferences of a very small minority of Catholics. Kevin McE 20:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)