Talk:Royal family/Archive 1

Archive 1

Headline text

Taking issue in order:♥

• A Royal Family is the extended family of a monarch.

It may or may not be extended; it may simply be his or her nuclear family, and may not include all of them!

• It usually includes princes, princesses, dukes, earls, and a variety of other hereditary title-holders.

This seems to be true ONLY in the UK, as only the UK has all these titles. Some monarchies PROHIBIT the granting of titles of nobility. The statement that it is USUAL is certainly not true.

• When the monarch dies,and there is always a very specific order of succession that indicates the exact order of family members in line to the throne.

Not all monarchies have such an order of succession.

In short this sounds as though it were written without much regard to royal families other than that of the UK&NI. It could be improved by including other monarchies. -- Someone else 05:16 Apr 17, 2003 () TIVERAM INUMEROS SUCESSOS ENTRE OS QUAIS "CC O DOMADOR D COBRAS HUMANAS"

So feel free to add what's missing. That's kinda the whole point of this thing. There was no page on royal families, so I made a simple one. user:J.J.

A royal family is not a TERM. A dog is not a TERM for an animal; a dog is an animal. That is why I edited this as I did. Michael Hardy 00:43 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

My comments (user:Himyaosui) to the above text: 1. I agree that a royal family is the extended and nuclear family of a monarch. 2. China's monarchy does have a specific yet unwritten rules for the succession of its monarchy, different from European nobility. China's evolution was different and so is its rules, laws, culture, history, and genealogy. 3. While Japan's monarchy is recognized, China's is not. 4. The genealogy of the Chinese people shows that the nation of China is of one race from one paternal father. Within this family certain lines are and have been recognized as the ruling or main thread. Other threads are associate threads with the mandate to rule being open. 5. All Chinese people (Han-Chinese) have a one character surname. All Han-Chinese are descendants of Huang Di. 6. I am asking, therefore, why is China's royal family being excluded from reference in Wikipedia? Our official website for now is at http://himyaosui.wordpress.com and our family's genealogy website is at http://zhoudynasty.freewebsites.com. It would be very nice to have some polite answers. I am solidly against negativity and arguments. I feel that positive tone discussions, productive discussions, are alright, but not violent and heated arguments or discussions. Why is China's royal family/imperial family not listed?

Himyaosui (talk) 13:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Purple?

No WikiProject on royalty? I'm astonished. If one gets created, might tag this, for a start. Trekphiler (talk) 07:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

For lack of a better option, I have added it to the royalty and nobility work group of the biography WikiProject Beeblbrox (talk) 19:31, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Famous royal houses and dynasties

In "Current royal families" someone asked "What are the criteria for this list?" I think that is a good and valid question even for this list "Famous royal houses and dynasties".

What is the criteria for getting on this list? And are there inappropriately listed families listed here?

There are MANY royal families that should not be on this list. They are royal, never the less, but fairly unknown and therefore not famous! Why too would a small island kingdom have listed four of their deposed and unknown families here?

This list seems (in my opinion) rigged!

Himyaosui (talk) 14:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Order of Names

Is there any rhyme or reason for a non-alpha order list ??vcxlor 08:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Succession?

What usually happens when all of the legitimate heirs to a throne die out? I know that countries with reigning monarchs, such as Denmark, have rules in case this should happen (in Denmark's case, a new King/Queen is elected by that parliament). But what happens when the line of success of a formerly ruling family dies out? For example, the Imperial families of France and German are close running out of heirs (France with 2 after the current head and Germany with 6 after the current head)? Does it fall to the last head of the family to appoint someone to inherit, change house laws to allow someone who normally wouldn't be allowed to inherit a place in succession, or does the claim to the throne completely die out? Emperor001 20:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

In China, there has never been a lack of successors to the throne. Our Imperial/nobility system is a patriarchal system and there has never been a lack of male heirs.

Himyaosui (talk) 13:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Current royal families

• WHAT IS THE CRITERIA FOR THIS LIST? If it should include claimants then the list is incomplete. If it should only control those currently ruling, then the lift has extra families.--208.102.210.163 (talk) 01:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

China has a current Royal Family. These people primarily live in Hawaii and a few throughout various parts of the US and world. The main lineage of China's royal family numbers at about 300 to 600 people with an extended family of about 40,000 to 50,000 people. The entire size of the clan in China may number at about 40 million to 60 million people.

What is the criteria for this list? I think that's a good question. As for the Zhou Dynasty (mandarin)/Chou Dynasty (Cantonese)/Jo Dynasty (English rendering of our dynasty's Hebrew name), the criteria should be truth and verification by history and historic documents. Even with documentation we are not included on Wikipedia's Royal Family list. He who has the power (authority) controls. He who does not sucks wind. Yes? Where is the fairness in life? Sometimes, there is none.

Himyaosui (talk) 13:49, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• INFORMATION AND FACTUAL MATERIAL BELOW:

The purpose of this list, in my humble opinion, is to outline history and to inform people as to who are the royal families of nations in this world. The ones in power or existence as well as the families who have been deposed.

I hope that no one minds my listing Portugal's royal family here and China's royal families correctly on this list. Refer to the discussion below in "Current chinese royal family" for my credentials. Any discussion?

The current royal family of Portugal is the House of Braganza-Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Also, for short, known as the House of Braganza. Their website appears below:

House of Braganza-Saxe-Coburg and Gotha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duarte_Pio,_Duke_of_Braganza

In 1644 Manchurians conquered China and ruled China for 300 years. Their websites can be found at:

The Official Website of The Imperial Family of Manchukuo http://royal.manchukuo.org/

Imperial Qing Restoration Organization http://sites.google.com/site/monarchyrevival/Home

Manchukuo Temporary Government http://manchukuo.org/

In prior to 1644, the Ming Dynasty ruled China. Marriage-ties were made with the Hebrew Chou Dynasty (Jo Dynasty)/Zhou Dynasty in Mandarin to strengthen the Ming Dynasty. Upon the fall of the Ming Dynasty, Ming Princes and the senior leadership of the Ming Dynasty (Court) installed CHOU Dynasty Chow Shun Cheong as emperor and both families went underground in hiding from their Manchurian invaders and continued China's Han-Chinese Imperial succession. I therefore list the Han-Chinese family websites currently in existence today. More information about them can be found there. When a family goes underground, due to a foreign conquest of their family lands, they could not broadcast who they are and their presence to the world for fear of losing their lives.

China's Imperial Family's official website http://himyaosui.wordpress.com

HIM Yao Sui's official website http://www.myspace.com/himyaosui

China's current royal family, The Zhou Dynasty, as we are called, currently resides abroad in the United States of America. See my websites above for details. In Mandarin, our family name is romanized as Zhou. In Cantonese, our family surname is romanized as Chou. And in the English rendering of our Hebrew name, it is romanized as Jo.

Himyaosui (talk) 15:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

As I already informed you the last time, you need to provide reliable sources for your claims of belonging to the Chou/Zhou dynasty. These reliable sources include, among others, articles in scholarly journals (preferentially history-related journals), mentions in scholar books, articles by historians, etc. Your personal websites in the internet are not enough to fulfill wikipedia's requirements. Wikipedia is not a place to promote original research, the research has to published somewhere else before placing it here. Please don't update the article to fit your unpublished research about dinasties. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Enric Naval, you have no right, truthfully, to delete other people's contribution. You are not a China's scholar and the other China experts, who regularly contribute to Wikipedia did not choose to delete my material. In life different opinions are not removed or challenged on Wikipedia for fear of losing their prestige. They depend on people like yourself who are not scholars with nothing to lose. The information that I contributed is factual and historically accurate. Many colleges and textbooks have not been updated, because my greater family has not chosen to release this information. I have though and I am a qualified historian. I was told and this is in writing that my contributions may be allowed in Wikipedia on the condition that I grant Wikipedia rights to use or publish this information. Which I have done. My claims are not claims, but factual information. If for example, President Bush said that I was not China's emperor in exile and he refused to grant me asylum, and secret service protection and I was assassinated, killed in your nation, by the Chinese communist government or by the Manchurian Ch'ing Dynasty government as they knew who I am, I take the loss as does history. You, Enric Naval, might not recognize me, but my enemies would and will. Life is unfair. It's too bad that people do not want the truth and that powers in power can and will control information. This is why Wikipedia is so important to people, so that knowledge and truth might be made known.

I am not a bad or evil person persisting, where people do not want me. I hope that better authorities on Wikipedia will cancel your administrative authority over forums and a better more qualified person will come forward and do a better job for the entire Wikipedia community. No hard feelings. Just being honest and truthful.

Himyaosui (talk) 06:13, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

• Discussion: POSING A QUESTION TO QUALIFIED EXPERTS ON THIS WORLD'S NOBILITY SYSTEM AND TO QUALIFIED EXPERTS ON CHINA'S NOBILITY SYSTEM.

FACTS:
1. Genealogy records exist in the Holy Bible showing the early genealogy of man as well as Jewish genealogy. People of the Hebrew race began with the birth of Eber in 2303 BC, great-grandson of Shem. From the Hebrew race come the Jews. All descendants of Abraham (b. 2018 BC), a Hebrew, are called Jews. The Hebrew race started approximately 285 years before Abraham.
2. People of the Jo Dynasty of China are paternal descendants of Jobab. Jobab is the grandson of Eber.
3. In the days of old, Nimrod took away written language from among his people, so their minds would not be scarred by the memory of God (and obedience to him).
4. Sons of the Jo Dynasty were sinocized or conscripted by Nimrod into the Han-Chinese race, into Nimrod's family of men.
5. These people came to America (Hawaii) in 1871 and a bit prior.
6. Many of them or, perhaps, a few find God. These are people who have lived in China for well-over 4,000 years among Hamite barbarians. The Jo/Chou Dynasty is well known in China and was the only dynasty of people to worship the true god in spirit and truth. Their family history is well-documented in China's history.
7. Chinese genealogy records and Chinese Imperial records are secretly held and they do not hold to Western methods of proof and documentation. What does exist is genealogy records and writings in classical Chinese, which takes about 8 years or more to master and then some (a man's lifetime).
8. Since there are no records apart from classical/secret writings, coded language, and a clan genealogy record, no other writings do exist. The ancients preserved their culture in this manner to hide their identities from barbarian hoards, people who did not believe and obey God, for their own safety.
9. These people or at least one or more wants to return back home to China to bring about a new day of reform in China. Should we in the West allow this man to Christianize the whole of China and bring about democratic reform? Done through negotiated efforts and by the mutual consent of the people and government of China. Or should we put road blocks in this man way, putting a halt to his preaching and teaching of God's word in China?
10. Question: How can this man get himself and his family listed in Wikipedia? I would certainly want to know. If this man is the greatest China historian and non-historians keep deleting his postings, what can this man do? He is the end word on China and on China's nobility system.

What he wants posted is simple and it would appear as follows in the topic category "Current royal families":

• Chinese/China's Royal Family
  
  • Qing Dynasty (deposed)
    
  • Zhou Dynasty (in exile)
    

Is the above so hard to do? What proof did people have to produce to have their family names included in Wikipedia? Hawaii has a very small population of native Hawaiians (pure bloods, 10,000 perhaps) and yet they are able to list three family names. Who approved of this? I see no discussion in the discussion section here. Nor do I see any discussion on the many other names and references as to where these names came from. No authoritative sources are sited!

I am an authority source and my family's website was cited. The book from which this was taken is our own family genealogy book written in Chinese and published by us, housed in many libraries around the world. Imperial Chinese genealogy is secretive and so I was told by many ordinary Chinese and scholars to not quote the source and that such is not done by custom. My family's website at geocities was shut down as geocities has closed and is no longer a free service, but I copied this material and with family have published it at http://zhoudynasty.freewebsites.com

This genealogy is accepted by every China scholar in the world (my assumption) as my mentor is one of the top historians in China. See my Wikipedia User page for details.

Exactly who contributed 80 percent to 90 percent of the information in Wikipedia? Unknown sources and unknown writers. If you delete much of the unquoted works, Wikipedia would be devoid and empty of much information and good materials.

Could someone with a greater degree of authority than Enric Naval comment on this? Perhaps a China scholar? A qualified authority would accept my works. That is for certain and guaranteed. An unqualified China history college professor, who has never heard of this stuff, might argue in rejection and out of his lack of scholarship, though, and be proven wrong. Anyone care to come out and comment using their real name? No aliases, a polite please, I am asking. They may contact me by telephone and write by e-mail with private questions and concerns. I do ask for a confidentiality agreement, though, as much of what by way of who I am and by way of my profession requires this. I am the Chief Negotiator for Lester D.K. Chow and Associates and the 1990-91 negotiator for the Iraq War. I have no income and no money at this time and no US Secret Service protection, which is sorely needed. I need a great degree on anonymity as my very life is at stake.

HIM Yao Sui = good guy!

Himyaosui (talk) 10:23, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

For somebody who wishes to retain their anonymity - so far you have done a pretty poor job...

Shot info (talk) 23:38, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

With regard to the publication of my picture, all of my websites had none. I was able to secure many American and international celebrities as "friends" on my sites (MySpace, Facebook, etc) without even posting a picture of what I look like. I broke a rule and posted my picture with some degree of confidence. I am head of state in exile and the last three US Presidents refused to grant me official asylum (official recognition and US Secret Service protection). Even if my life was directly threatened Obama has refused to uphold the law. Bush Senior, may I repeat, said that he would give the matter his serious consideration, but when I came out against his war against Iraq as I was "his" negotiator the matter of my recognition was tabled. These men know who I am yet I am not officially recognized, at this time, me for political reasons. This does not mean that I am not China's monarch in exile.

If you see Malaysian Royalty listed, Japanese Royalty listed, and Thai Royalty listed, wouldn't you as China's official monarch ask why am I not listed?

Three lines in the very minimum is all I ask. Is that so hard? Please explain why!

• Chinese/China's Royal Family
  
  • Qing Dynasty (deposed)
    
  • Zhou Dynasty (in exile)
    

Is there any China scholar out there, here on Wikipedia, who could validate my family's claims for the purpose of posting on Wikipedia? The above is true history and a history that will stand forever, even with my death. You would have to check my genealogy against known records and not publish your findings. The Chinese language and writing is such that many things are not and should not be revealed for security reasons and for cultural reasons ("so long as the dynasty might last"). Go to http://chinatownhawaii.com to the links at the top of the page.

My family's four thousand year genealogy website resides at http://zhoudynasty.freewebsites.com and my website with the most complete information is at http://himyaosui.wordpress.com.

Himyaosui (talk) 14:57, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

All the links you provide are not reliable sources per Wikipedia's policies WP:RS. Sorry himyaosui - them's the rules - you don't need to be a China Scholar to validate your data, you just have to see where it is published. Shot info (talk) 23:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Current chinese royal family

Changes made by HIM Yao Sui, User:himyaosui , on 02-20-2009 HST. Officially by the history of China and by China's official Han-Chinese succession, I am today Emperor of China. See [1] for genealogy, chronology, and succession. I am a qualified historian with tutelage by Professor Dick Morris, University of Hawaii, and Professor Bai Shouyi, Head of the Department of History and Head of the Institute of History at Beijing Teachers University. Professor Bai Shouyi has over 40 years of teaching experience and is a member of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, a member of the Presidium of the Chinese Society of Historians, and President of the Beijing Society of Historians.

Changes:

1. Added "Chou Dynasty" to "Famous royal houses and dynasties"

Reasoning: By history and China's last Han-Chinese court installation, the Chou Dynasty was officially and secretly installed as China's Imperial family on October 30, 1644. As the Chinese people and Court rejected foreign rule over China. This was an official act of Court and so this succession should stand for all time.

2. Added "China's Royal Family (Living in exile in the United States of America)" to "Current Royal families"

Reasoning: An Imperial succession is something handed down, especially in China's case, from father to son. We, China's Imperial family are very similar to Afghanistan's royalty in that they went into exile in Rome for three generations. We, China's Imperial family, are no different.

3. Added three external links: (1) Official website for China's Royal Family (2) Country Studies - Federal Research Division, Library of Congress (3) Table B. Chronology of Chinese Dynasties

Reasoning: This, all of the above, helps tremendously in the study and understanding of China's ageless history and culture.

Authority: I am the original and direct source of information and China history scholar as well as being China's emperor in exile. I grant and hereby allow Wikipedia use of this material as given in my posting. In the future, this research materials will be part of China's history study's curriculum.

If anyone has any questions, may I suggest a discussion, first, before you delete my materials and contribution. Thanks. HIM Yao Sui, Emperor of China. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Himyaosui (talk • contribs) 10:31, 21 February 2009

You need to provide published sources for your claims, see WP:RS the reliable sources guideline for what type of sources you need.

I changed Chou to Zhou as this is the name of the article Zhou Dynasty (apparently, "Zhou" is the most common name of the dynasty in english).

I removed all external links including yours, see WP:EL. About your links, you shouldn't link to self-published pages in wordpress or geocities, and you should link directly to the relevant material and not to the main page or to an index without giving any clue of where the relevant material is (like the library of congress website). Also, this is a page on the "Royal family" concept, so the "External links" section should link to pages dealing with that concept; the pages dealing with specific royal families should be linked on the article of that specific families. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:48, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

My answer to some of your concerns appears at User_talk:Himyaosui

(1) You removed, without permission, good and very accurate information. Out of hatred or spite? When China's Imperial family migrated to the US for a better life and for their own safety, the Wades-Giles romanization of their name and terms was used (Chow for their last name and Chou as the name of their family dynasty). So, to be in keeping with their very existence in America, "Chou" was used in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Family in the section "Famous royal houses and dynasties" doing so is proper and in keeping with what our family calls itself in America. In communist China, they use the term Zhou for our family name.

(2) Under "Current Royal families", without permission, you erased our family's link. By China's customs, traditions, and Imperial decrees, during the time of foreign Manchurian conquest, a decision was made to continue our family succession based on the fact that a Manchurian kingdom in governance over China was illegal. Thereby justifying the continuation of our family succession as China's official succession.

(3) We are the good guys in this contest that you have disdained and placed at our feet.

(4) We are a current Royal family and not a deposed one.

Added about 10 minutes later: Should I repost my family's name and link in "Current Royal families"? If I do, it is because the Chou Dynasty is China's current Han-Chinese Imperial family and I am in negotiation with many governments in an effort to bring about a just end to the Iraq War and anyone negating my family's status will be lending to the Bush administration's argument that they were right in bringing about this war.

There is an argument out there that says that Bush did the right thing in prosecuting Saddam Hussein and the deaths of 2 million Iraqis (from 1991 to 2006) was justified even though (1) Saddam did not have WMD and (2) was not in violation of fraudulently gotten UN sanctions by US Secretary of State Colin L. Powell.

Deleting this information or changing it without permission or a proper discussion is wrong and may subject you to legal action, when President Bush and company is finally indicted.

(5) The Chou Dynasty is China's official Imperial family and dynasty. We are not communist. We are loyal Americans, today, people that fled China for our safety and security from the foreign Manchurian dynasty government.

See [2]

72.253.182.17 (talk) 11:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Replied in User_talk:Himyaosui#Reply_to_Enric_Naval --Enric Naval (talk) 21:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)