This is an archive of past discussions about Russell Terrier. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Old Discussions

There eventually ought to be a separate article for each of the (fairly new) distinguishing varieties of these dogs. At the moment, however, the JRT article discusses all of them and their differences, so a redirect seems appropriate. Elf 17:06, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

==This article==There seems to be some dispute over the true development of the breed, with the two clubs involved, American Russell Terrier Foundation Club and the American Russell Terrier Club ,so both versions have been left on the site for the public to form their own opinion 2-30pm 1-17-2010

JoAnn Stoll wrote Page 157 To sum up the true Jack Russell Terrier of yesteryear and today is without doubt the Fox Terriers as he was pre 1880 or therabouts. --Russellterrier1985 (talk) 04:15, 16 January 2010 (UTC) JoAnn Stoll- Avril Black wrote taken from the AKC web site for the Smooth Fox Terrier

AKC MEET THE BREEDS®: Smooth Fox Terrier A Look Back The Smooth Fox Terrier originated in the British Isles in the 17th century. Owned by farmers who needed help eradicating vermin, the breed used its keen nose, remarkable eyesight and stamina to drive fox and other quarry out from their underground dens. Although seldom used for hunting today, the breed still maintains its drive and determination. They will dig tirelessly for underground vermin.

One of the first records of the breed was made in 1790, when Colonel Thornton's "Pitch" - a smooth-coated white Fox Terrier - was immortalized in print and paintings. The Smooth is thought to have come about from crosses of the Old English Terrier, smooth coated Black and Tan terriers of England, Bull Terriers, Greyhounds and Beagles.

Smooth Fox Terriers preceded the Wires in the show ring by 15 to 20 years. At first they were classified with sporting dogs, a tribute to their keen nose, remarkable eyesight, and stamina in driving foxes from their hole When fox hunting became popular in England in the late 17th century, hunters found the need for a dog that could go to ground and bolt the quarry. Terriers, game and eager, were ideal for such a purpose but most of the early terriers were dark in color and too low on leg to run with a pack of foxhounds. Hunters began to develop a longer-legged terrier, predominantly white in color so as not to be mistaken for a fox. Early fox terriers were primarily smooth-coated. By the end of the 19th century, smooth and wire-coated Fox Terriers were in great demand, both as companions and show dogs. Although considered one breed for many years, interbreeding of Smooth Fox Terriers and Wire Fox Terriers ceased in the early 1900s. Except for coat, however, the two breeds are essentially identical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.29.183.167 (talk) 16:30, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I do wish some one would stop vandalizing the links www.ukcrussellterrier.com has been removed by some one again I have reproted this. Avril Black —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.62.191.80 (talk) 23:19, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Quoted from the Lucas book page 159. A century ago, owing to the popularity of badger baiting----as distinct from badger digging---terriers were often crossed with bulldog to give added courage and ferocity. One result was that most terriers of that day were smooth coated. The present day wire fox-terrier is directly descended from the strain bred by the Reverend John Russell who abominated the bulldog cross. The Reverends first terrier was "Trump" Luas describes the haircoat of "Trump" thick, close, and a trifle wiry, is well calcaulated to protect the body from wet and cold. The Russell Terrier derived from the Reverend John Russells strains of working fox terriers. JoAnn Stoll--4.246.221.37 (talk) 04:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

4.246.221.37 (talk) 04:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Did you know: In 1995 the English Jack Russell Terrier Club (JoAnn Stoll President)created a registry with its board members, for the "Puddin", now on saying this one has to remember we are talking about dogs that have their HISTORY linked to the ancestry of the "Puddin"! UKC breed standard history section 2001 2005 2009 These wonderful dogs with outstanding temperaments and good confirmation came from the following breeders

Hi-Hills, Westerly, Star Valley, Farr West,Tall Tree's, Elk Creek, Pecon Grove,to name just a few. The registry in 1995: Most of the registry consisted of "Puddin" ancestry. The English Jack Russell Terrier,was recognized by the United Kennel Club in 2001 and called the breed, "Russell Terrier" The United Kennel Club took our registry in its entirety, with an arrangement that we would form a UKC club in return all the dogs registered at that time would have the letters FS, before their name,on their pedigree, Only the original dogs registered have this pre fix with UKC.The original letter from the UKC to JoAnn Stoll and board members states The UKC has recognized the dog you call English Jack Russell Terrier as the Russell Terrier. The Russell Terrier Foundation Club was formed in 2003. after this date. Other clubs where also formed which included the following.

(Now) National Russell Terrier Foundation Club (Parent club for ARBA.)

American Russell Terrier Foundation Club a single dog registry for FSS AKC " Russell Terrier " American Russell Terrier Club (AKC parent club for FSS AKC "Russell Terrier")

ALL the above clubs have registered "Puddin" bloodlines,in their registries and archives. Some breeders chose to cross breed the "Puddin" on what's now known as the "Parson Russell Terrier" (FCI recognized this breed on 4-6-2001) However some did not and continued to breed the original dog, as it was first registered in the English Jack Russell Club registry in 1995 and United Kennel Club 2001. Through out the history of the breed, the smooth coat and rough coated dog has been bred together. So we have the "Puddin" and the "Parson Russell Terrier" bred together, which is evident in the pedigree's and also in the looks of the "Russell Terrier" some look like the "Puddin" and some look like "Parson Russell Terriers" some have rough coats some have smooth coats,some have long legs some have short legs.

UKC and AKC will no longer register litters from cross bred dogs,they now register them by blood,UKC and AKC require a 3 generation pedigree so as the" Russell Terrier" moves forward  the "Parson Russell Terrier" bloodline will no longer be visible on a 3 generation pedigree for the "Russell Terrier". AKC already has the breed "Parson Russell Terrier" as a pure breed,this being said the "Russell Terrier will have come full circle and be a breed of its own, on paper !! Just like the "Puddin" that has no" Parson Russell Terrier " cross breeding.

It is believed the Smooth and Rough coated "Russell Terrier" are from 2 different ancestors,what ever happens in the future the "Russell Terrier" will be forever linked to the "Puddin" ancestry and the "Parson Russell Terrier" The "Puddin" ancestry pre dates the "Parson Russell Terrier". The original foundation stock registered with all the above registries can be seen on www.ukcrussellterrier.com some are still living some have passed. and the foundation stock today as the breed moves forward in FSS AKC can be found on. www.akc-russell-terrier,com The United Kennel Club now calls the "Russell Terrier" "Jack Russell" as of 2009,the original breed history remains The United Kennel Club changed the breed standard in 2009,The Russell Terrier Foundation Club (A licensed UKC club) was not informed of the changes. UKC created its own breed standard ( which includes the triangle head) which was in our opinion, (the Russell Terrrier Foundation Club members,) to appease, both the breeders of none,cross bred dogs and the cross bred dogs, it is evident this did not work. The "Jack Russell" was recognized by FCI 1-1-2003 This article has been written by Avril Black former English Jack Russell Terrier Club board member and registrar ( with 40 years of experience of the breed) for the club created in 1995.(JoAnn Stoll President)The English Jack Russell Terrier Club. Michael Black former Vice President of the English Jack Russell Terrier Club 1995 (JoAnn Stoll President) I hope this clears up some questions for "Russell Terrier " fanciers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.62.191.80 (talk) 19:15, 15 January 2010 (UTC) Article Quote JoAnn Stoll I have a copy of the original EJRTC standard that I can scan in and post on the article for all to see that it's not the exact same verbage as the original UKC standard based on the FCI standard as evidenced by the letter written by Cindy Cooke. But the original English Jack Russell Terrier and the FCI Jack Russell Terrier were always intended to be the same breed, at least that was my understanding of it from my start with the club in 1996.

In 1995 the EJRTC and board memebers, wrote the English Jack Russell Terrier breed standard and that was the original name of the dog, English Jack Russell, there was no FCI standard in 1995, for the Jack Russell. FCI recognized the Jack Russell on January 1st 2003.

Dear Sir,

We have duly received your e-mail of yesterday and thank you. We inform you that the breed "Jack Russel Terrier" is officially recognized by the FCI since 01/01/03. It is the "Parson Russel Terrier" which is recognized by the FCI since 04/06/01.

Best regards,

Marie-France Grulois FCI

Original Message -----

From: Avril Black To: info@fci.be Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 2:19 PM Subject: FCI breed standards

The American Russell Terrier Club then submitted a application to FSS AKC based on the FCI standard. This gave AKC and UKC the opportunity to register many thousands of JRTCA registered Jack Russells as Russell Terriers. For the original breed,we the (Now NRTFC members) hope this was for the breed Russell Terrier, and not position and revenue. Avril Black former board member of the English Jack Russell Terrier Club (1995) JoAnn Stoll president Michael Black former Vice president of ther English Jack Russell Terrier Club(1995) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.27.110.170 (talk) 20:28, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The Russell Terrier Foundation Club now( NRTFC )was the very first recognized club by UKC and USA for the Russell Terrier. www.ukcrussellterrier.com

The American Russell Terrier Foundation Club is a recognized registry and club for FSS AKC still excepting single dog registrations for FSS AKC. www.akc-russell-terrier.com

The National Russell Terrier Foundation Club is the parent club for American Rare Breed Association

The Breed standard was changed 1st January 2010.

The above has also been vandalized and links taken off the wikipedia site repeatedly,the foundation stock From the English Jack Russell Terrier Club, National Russell Terrier Foundation Club, American Russell Terrier Club, American Russell Terrier Foundation Club, can be visited by any one on www.uckrussellterrier.com and www.akc-russell-terrier.com. The pictures of the dogs are from all the above clubs and registries, also the facts are there for all to see. The pictures of the dogs that were registered FS UKC 2001 and FSS AKC do not tell lies.The pictures that are published are the roots and heritage of the breed" Russell Terrier" one can not just eliminate history,for ones personal gain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.129.3.153 (talk) 15:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Please do not vandalize this article any further or we, the authors will report you and your IP to the Wikipedia editorial staff and you will not be allowed to edit any articles on Wikipedia. We have already generated a complaint. Thank you. AJRTA & AJRTC

Good addition to Wiki

I am glad to see this addition to Wiki and commend you for starting it. The Russell Terrier is a breed with a separate name, separate breed description and a divergent history. In short, it's time for it to have its own section. Nice work! - PBurns3711

Thank you P. Burns

The American Jack Russell Terrier Association and the American Jack Russell Terrier Club are currently working hard to get this breed taken seriously and not to be mistaken for the Pud dogs. S. Bridges

Not to be confused with the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America (JRTCA)who hold the trademark to the name "Jack Russell Terrier" and do not recognize these dogs in their registries as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.47.246.99 (talk) 20:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

but the UKC now call the dog Jack Russell don't they  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.27.110.170 (talk) 20:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Let's discuss this

== Thank you MY ORIGINAL POST HAS BEEN EDITED BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN MYSELF ON JAN. 12 WITH MISINFORMATION. JOANN STOLL THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN VANDELIZED AND CAN'T BE CONSIDERED ACCURATE. JOANN STOLL (OWNER ON RECORD IN RIVERSIDE COUNTRY AND SACRAMENTO COUNTY OF THE ENGLISH JACK RUSSELL TERRIER CLUB ESTABLISHED 1995). JOANN STOLL

I have a copy of the original EJRTC standard that I can scan in and post on the article for all to see that it's not the exact same verbage as the original UKC standard based on the FCI standard as evidenced by the letter written by Cindy Cooke. But the original English Jack Russell Terrier and the FCI Jack Russell Terrier were always intended to be the same breed, at least that was my understanding of it from my start with the club in 1996.

The Russell Terrier Foundation Club (Now the NRTFC) was the very first UKC club in USA, board members of the English Jack Russell Terrier Club (1995) formed the Russell Terrier Foundation Club with UKC in 2003, they kept their word to UKC and went forward with a lisensed club,for the breed Russell Terrier, in UKC. This was part of the agreement with UKC to register the EJRTC dogs as Foundation Stock.

The breed standard given to UKC was the English Jack Russell Terrier club format,given by the club and the board members at that time and not FCI,it was again changed by the president of the EJRTC to include a color change, with Cindy Cook with out any board meeting, of members approval, Color nothing to do with FCI.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.129.3.153 (talk) 16:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC) 
Someone is vandalizing this article with information that can't be substanciated posting inaccurate information. First of all the EJRTC aka ARTC,Inc. est. 1995 (AKC Parent Club) has never been affiliated with the NRTFC in any way. References to support this would be the DBA for the EJRTC in Riverside, CA, DBA Sacramento, CA, and the EJRTC application to the US Patent Office all a matter of public record. The EJRTC Jack Russell Terriers which went forward in the UKC as FS and AKC FSS as the Russell Terrier derived from the Reverend John Russells working strains of Fox Terriers per the UKC and AKC standards for the breed.  The ARBA Russell Terrier derived from the Black and Tan/ extinct White Terrier cross and only has one acceptable hair coat, smooth. The UKC and AKC Russell Terrier have three hair coats, smooth, rough, and broken. The ARBA Russell Terriers need their own page to make the distinction of a different breed.  http://www.arba.org/russell_terrier.htm (ARBA standard for the Russell Terrier)    Thank you, J. Stoll

Avril Black this was taken from the AKC breed history for the Smooth Fox Terrier.

Authorities believe the two Fox Terriers probably originated from very different sources. The ancestor of the Wire is thought to be the old rough-coated, black-and-tan working terrier of Wales, Derbyshire, and Durham. The important ancestors of the Smooth are believed to include the smooth-coated black-and-tan terrier, the Bull Terrier, the Greyhound, and the Beagle.

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Russellterrier1985 (talk • contribs) 05:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I do not see anywhere on the ARBA information where the Russell Terrier has been split into two varieties smooth and rough coated. There is no provisions in the standard for the rough and broken coated Russell Terriers period they are simply eliminated with a Disqualification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Russellterrier1985 (talk • contribs) 17:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Someone is Changing the Article Again

The person who keeps changing this article need to stop or site their references to what they are saying in this. My references are cited in the article User: Vistarr —Preceding undated comment added 23:26, 11 January 2010 (UTC).

The Original UKC Standard Based on Australian and Irish Standard (Corrected)

The original letter written by Cindy Cooke to the board members of the English Jack Russell Terrier Club states that the original Russell Terrier was the same breed as called the Jack Russell in the rest of the world. It says that the standard for the breed was based on the same standards used in Ireland and Australia § Vistarr Jan 12, 2010 [1]

UKC Russell Terrier now Jack Russell Standard

According to their own statement on their website they claim they are changing the standard back to the original standard written to reflect the same breed as the FCI breed. The person who keeps changing the facts in the Russell Terrier article is incorrect in what they are posting. They need to read to this reference. § Vistarr Jan 12, 2010 [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vistarr (talk • contribs) 06:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Old UKC standard VS old EJRTC Standard

If the EJRTC originally wrote the original UKC standard, then why is the verbage so different? Here is a link to the old EJRTC standard [3] and here is a link to the original UKC standard [4] § user:Vistarr January 12, 2010 —Preceding undated comment added 06:38, 13 January 2010 (UTC).

Hunt and Working Terriers by Captain John Lucas was regarded as a definitive book on the working terrier first published in 1931. Lucas describes the old English Terrier as being black and tan. The white bodies of the old black and tan came from the bulldog cross used for the rat pits in England.Page 5 Lucas further quotes writings going back to 1858 by Stonehenge stressing the undersirable bull blood for terriers used in the hunt fields to hunt fox. Page 6 He further quotes the Sportsman's Cabinet written over a 100 years ago describing the old English white terrier now extinct as being a coward unless crossed with a bull terrier. The Sportsman's Cabinet was also referenced as saying the the Reverend John Russell only had rough coated dogs, as the smooth coated terriers had bull blood which he considered undesirable for fox hunting. Page 7 Lucas shows pictures of the original bulldog and terrier cross used for the rat pits and dog fighting comparing its likeness to the modern day white bull terrier.Between page 304 and 305 ( the picture pages are not numbered page 3 of the pictures) Reference to the modern day Bull Terrier is irrelevant to the Russell Terrier history. JoAnn Stoll--Russellterrier1985 (talk) 09:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

AKC MEET THE BREEDS®: Bull Terrier Playful and clownish, the Bull Terrier is best described as a three year-old child in a dog suit. Given his muscular build, the Bull Terrier can appear unapproachable, but he is an exceedingly friendly dog, with a sweet and fun-loving disposition and popular in the obedience, agility and show rings. The Bull Terrier can be all white (markings on the head are permissible) or colored.

AKC MEET THE BREEDS®: Bull Terrier

Playful and clownish, the Bull Terrier is best described as a three year-old child in a dog suit. Given his muscular build, the Bull Terrier can appear unapproachable, but he is an exceedingly friendly dog, with a sweet and fun-loving disposition and popular in the obedience, agility and show rings. The Bull Terrier can be all white (markings on the head are permissible) or colored.

The AKC Russell Terrier derived from the Reverend John Russells fox working terriers according the AKC the largest canine registry in the world. JoAnn Stoll —Preceding unsigned comment added by Russellterrier1985 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 13 January 2010 (UTC) ------Russellterrier1985 (talk) 07:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

VANDELISM CONTINUES AND ALL OF THE LEGITIMATE REFERENCES HAVE BEEN REMOVED. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Russellterrier1985 (talk • contribs) 07:30, 13 January 2010 (UTC) --Russellterrier1985 (talk) 07:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Page 126 in the Hunt and Working Terriers by Captain John Lucas, MC it states the Captain John Edwards Sealyhams were crossed with Arthur Heinemann's Jack Russell Terriers by Mr. Nell who lived in the Duke of Beaufort country having the breed for 31 years. "This is a kennel of real working dogs with a working pedigree and as the old Sealyham is much the same type as the short legged "Jack Russell Terrier" but with a stronger head, the type arrived may be guessed. Mr. Nell is an ex M.F. H. Pictures following page 208 (picture pages not numbered) on page 5 of the pictures shows a picture of Peer Gynt, a rough coated terrier, states "Noted pre-war Sealyham. Compare with the "Jack Russell" photographs".

If you compare the picture of Peer Gynt to many of the photos of the Jack Russell Terriers in the Lucas book they bear a strong resemblance to Peer Gynt. The strong resemblance to Peer Gynt is very evident in the appearance of the modern day AKC Russell Terrier. Evident by the picture AKC uses on their website to illustrate the breed Russell Terrier. --Russellterrier1985 (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The English Jack Russell Terrier Club was the name of the club not the name of the breed. Eventually the English Jack Russell Terrier Club was renamed the American Russell Terrier Club, Inc. (Incorportated in the state of Kentucky). Although English and American were used for the club names it was not the name of the breed. The UKC recognized the Russell Terrier in 2001 and the AKC recognized the Russell Terrier in 2004. The prior use of the name Jack Russell Terrier by the JRTCA has always made the use of the name "Jack Russell Terrier" problematic. The use of English and American were merely terms used to differientiate between Clubs not the breed. JoAnn Stoll, Pres. Founder ARTC --Russellterrier1985 (talk) 18:52, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

^ http://www.ukcrussellterrier.com This link provideded for references is not a valid reference for the UKC. All licensed UKC clubs are listed on the UKC site and this club is not on the UKC list of licensed clubs although they clearly represent themselves as being a UKC Club. This is very misleading to the general public. It does not lend crediability to this article.--Russellterrier1985 (talk) 02:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The Parson Russell Terrier and Russell Terrier are recognized by the AKC. The Parson Russell Terrier and Jack Russell Terrier are recognized by UKC. The UKC Parson,the UKC Jack Russell, AKC Parson and the AKC Russell Terrier, the ARBA Parson and Jack Russell all derived from the Reverend John Russells working fox terriers used for Fox Hunting. FCI recognizes the Parson and the Jack Russell Terrier derived from the Reverend working fox terriers. However, ARBA recognizes the Russell Terrier as being derived from the cross of the old black and Tan hunt terrier with the old English White Terrier (Bull dog or Bull Terrier). This cross was very popular for badger baiting, dog fighting, and the rat pits in England according to Captain John Lucas as I have referenced in my post above.

In the US there are many terms used for any terriers bearing the resemblance to a Jack Russell Terrier with predominantly white bodies with no clear definition and not recognized as an official breed. The English Jack Russell Terrier, shorty JRT, Puddin, Irish JRT, short legged JRT, long legged JRT, hunt terriers and the list goes on. These names can describe a wide variance of unidentifiable types of all descriptions. One only has to search the internet. At this point in the evolution of the Jack Russell Terrier with so many offshoots appearing with no consistency of type or origin I think the definition of Kennel Club recognition will help sort it out.

I would appreciate for someone to present the definitive source which would substantiate the Parson Russell Terrier and the Jack Russell Terrier (JRTCA) derived from the "puddin". --Russellterrier1985 (talk) 22:10, 15 January 2010 (UTC) JoAnn Stoll--Russellterrier1985 (talk) 22:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Page 181 Captain Lucas book: Quote: "but it must be remembered that when Jack Russells are mentioned it probably means the non-pedigree rough working fox-terrier of the old North Devon type, since Jack Russells are not a distinct breed, but merely a type or a strain of Fox Terrier."

Page 178 Captain Lucas book: Quote "Early fox-terriers seem to have mostly black and tan in color, the white probably appearing from a cross with the so-called fox beagle. From time to time the Fox Terrier was crossed with the bulldog or bull-terrier, notably at the beginning of the nineteenth century, when dog fighting and rat pits were popular features of the day." --Russellterrier1985 (talk) 22:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC) JoAnn Stoll

The following is quoted from "Above and Below Ground" The Jack Russell in North America by Marilyn Massey published 1985.

Page 139. In 211 B.C. Oppian's "Cynegetica", the author mentions "Agassoel" small and slender used to follow beasts in their holes. Jacques du Fouilloux "La Venerie et Fauconnerie" 1561 translated into English by George Turberville and published in 1575, in Chaper 65 speaks oof two kinds of terryers to take the fox the crooked legged, short haired breed of Flanders and another sorte there is which are shagged and streight legged.

Page 142. The official terrierman has a batch of similar terriers, also throughly experienced, and these do the bulk of the work all day and indeed every hunting day. His terriers are those small, white, often smooth but usually broken-coated dogs we call south country hunt terriers. The the general public got hold of them,thickened their shoulders and called them erroneously "Jack Russell Terriers". The south country terrier is small so that he can be carried if necessary. He must be narrow shouldered, but need not have long legs to hamper him when put into an earth starfish fashion.

Page 147: The term "Jack Russell" if it means anything can only mean the type of working terrier that was bred and used by the Reverend John Russell which was strain he maintained from 1820 to 1883.

Page 157 To sum up the true Jack Russell Terrier of yesteryear and today is without doubt the Fox Terriers as he was pre 1880 or therabouts. --Russellterrier1985 (talk) 04:15, 16 January 2010 (UTC) JoAnn Stoll

Links of Reference Continually Being Removed

Why are the links verifying the facts in this article continually being removed? Is it because what is being said by the person who keeps changing the article can't verify what they are saying? And the references refute what they are saying?--Vistarr (talk) 04:13, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

.akc-russell-terrier.com This link used to reference the foundation dogs is just a page of pictures. No information such as breeders, name of dog, owners, registration numbers both EJRTC/ARTC numbers, AKC, or UKC registration numbers. This is not a legitimate reference. Anyone can post pictures on the net. What legitimate source can verify the identity of these dogs.--4.246.221.37 (talk) 05:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Very good point --Vistarr (talk) 05:49, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

In the Beginning 1995

The EJRTC was established to provide a registry to separate the small 10" to 12" rectangular Jack Russell from the distinctly different JRTCA Jack Russell Terrier and the UKC Jack Russell Terrier in 1995. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Russellterrier1985 (talk • contribs) 22:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The EJRTC aka ARTC (AKC Parent Club) representing the largest Kennel Club in the world provides the information below to the general public as the history for the AKC Russell Terrier written by Pam Simmons AKC Judge, (ARTC Treasure and Educational Director). The content may not be changed in anyway and is protected by copy right laws. The ARTC is only responsible for the history of the ARTC and the AKC Russell Terrier. Obviously the history of the breed varies with the different Clubs and Kennel Clubs.

The AKC Russell Terrier

Historically, although bred from similar bloodlines of the Parson type, in the 1800s, enthusiasts infused very dissimilar strains of blood to develop a smaller version of fox working terrier that could be more easily transported in terrier bags and work in smaller earthen dens in more rugged terrain. Australia has been designated the country of development for this breed and the AKC breed standard reflects this influence.

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.138.24.236 (talk) 01:51, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Since 1995, The American Russell Terrier Club, Inc. Inc has served the breed as the premier domestic registry for the purebred Russell Terrier. The ARTC ushered the Russell Terrier breed to AKC recognition in 2005. The American proponents of this newly recognized AKC breed have worked tirelessly to solidify the consistency of domestic breed type while eliminating any influence of the Parson/JRTCA Jack Russell blood within their breeding lines. By selectively breeding the domestic foundation stock of the shorter height and longer body type to quality purebred imports of the same breed, the members of the ARTC have effectively and very specifically eliminated "Parson or domestic JRTCA Jack Russell" blood. The ARTC registry has solidified the purity of the Russell Terrier in American.

The purebred Kennel Club registered Russell Terrier is not to be confused with the traditionally named Puddlin Dogs found in the English or Irish country sides. The traditional Puddlin Dog has shorter benched legs and an extremely elongated body, usually with a pointed rounded head. The Puddlin is generally not noted for pleasant disposition nor has it been bred for hunting or any utilitarian purpose.

The following information below was added to the above pertaining to UKC. The above information only pertains to the ARTC and the AKC Russell Terrier. The information below pertains to the UKC entirely different Kennel Clubs.

((( But in the UKC breed standard history section 2001 2005 2009 its states they go back to the puddin,you say the English Jack Russell Terrier Club (now the American Russell Terrier Club) gave them the registry in 2001.UKC is one of the biggest working registries in the world The content may not be changed in anyway and is protected by copy right laws. ))) The ARTC had no input in any history UKC section 2001 2005 2009 as they were never a licensed UKC Club. The UKC and AKC have no affliation to one another. In fact UKC owns and writes their own standards unlike the AKC. The AKC Parent Clubs own and write their own standard.

I would also like to know where this UKC breed standard history section is 2001 2005 2009 because I have never heard of it. Please provide a source of reference other than numbers. The generic term puddin was used to describe a wide variance of predominantly white terriers resembling a Jack Russell. As far as I know there would be no definitive description for a puddin. JoAnn Stoll--Russellterrier1985 (talk) 02:42, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

So then what are we left with if you have eliminated that influence? the new and "improved" puddin or the Parson look a like.

One wonders if you just can not remember, what you did give UKC in 2001, you as the president of the English Jack Russell Terrier Club. The letter from the UKC does refer to you and Avril Black. The United Kennel Club has recognized the breed you call English Jack Russell Terrier as the Russell Terrier. You stated in one of your earlier posts. That was never the name of the breed but the club. You must have just forgot thats what the dog was called.

The English Jack Russell Terrier Club was the name of the club not the name of the breed. Eventually the English Jack Russell Terrier Club was renamed the American Russell TeThe UKC and AKC have no affliation to one another. In fact UKC owns and writes their own standards unlike the AKC.rrier Club, Inc. (Incorportated in the state of Kentucky). Although English and American were used for the club names it was not the name of the breed. The UKC recognized the Russell Terrier in 2001 and the AKC recognized the Russell Terrier in 2004. The prior use of the name Jack Russell Terrier by the JRTCA has always made the use of the name "Jack Russell Terrier" problematic. The use of English and American were merely terms used to differientiate between Clubs not the breed. JoAnn Stoll, Pres. Founder ARTC --Russellterrier1985 (talk) 18:52, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Quote: JoAnn Stoll from last post TeThe UKC and AKC have no affliation to one another. In fact UKC owns and writes their own standards unlike the AKC.rrier Club, Inc.

American Russell Terrier Foundation Club

Thats what we have been saying all along the UKC has its own breed standard, and not the FCI standard for the Jack Russell recognized 01-01-2003 The Jack Russell was not recognized in 2001 by the FCI and 1995 when the English Jack Russell Terrier Club and board members wrote the breed standard they gave to UKC (JoAnn Stoll president)

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by JoAnn Stoll, Pres. Founder ARTC since 1995 Russellterrier1985 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The EJRTC did not write the original UKC standard. Whoever is giving this information to the general public is incorrect. I was told by Cindy Cooke herself she along with Tom Cream President of the IKC wrote the original UKC standard. --Russellterrier1985 (talk) 04:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)JoAnn Stoll

So the English Jack Russell Terrier Club (JoAnn Stoll president) had nothing to do with input in the UKC I wonder who added this then in 2001

COLOR Solid white or predominantly white with any combination of black, tan, or brown markings are preferred, but an otherwise good specimen of the breed must not be penalized for heavy body color. Legs, chest and belly must be white. The back and sides of a dog with heavy body coloring must have a minimal amount of white. Any white area may be ticked providing that white predominates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.138.24.236 (talk) 04:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

UKC Wrote the Original UKC Standard

That was always my understanding of it from the beginning. The letter written by Cindy Cooke to the club states what the standard was based on (the standards used in Australia and Ireland). Why would she say that if the standard was written by the EJRTC? Obviously the EJRTC would already know what the standard was based on. Cindy Cooke told me basically the same thing on the phone herself. The statement in the Russell Terrier article that says the EJRTC wrote the UKC standard is clearly untrue and should be removed as it will mislead those who read it. --Vistarr (talk) 04:34, 18 January 2010 (UTC) I wonder who you are Vistarr I do not remember you being around in 1995 or had any thing to do with the English Jack Russell Terrier when it was taken into the UKC as the Russell Tererier. Thats right the dog was not called the English Jack Russell Terrier was it, that was the name of the club ROUND and ROUND we go!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.138.24.236 (talk) 04:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

The reason you don't remember Vistar is because you weren't there in 1995. Good point Avril. Vistar was there way before you appeared on the scene. Stellular. JoAnn Stoll, Pres. Founder EJRTC/ARTC- Russellterrier1985 (talk) 05:24, 18 January 2010 (UTC) --How can one have a discution with a person club that forgets the truth, and twists the facts. An AKC parent club should be able to have a discussion with dignity and class, I am sure you have club ethics and have to answer to AKC who has given you the privilege of representing them

My History with the EJRTC aka ARTC and the Breed

I got my first JRT in 1991. I bred my first litter in 1995. In my quest to find the perfect stud dog, I found out all kinds of information. I wanted to register her but no one would accept her. I was delighted when I was told there was a lady in Wyoming who was going to start a registry for the shorter dogs that were not accepted anywhere. I got her contact information from a vet who at that time lived in Beaumont, CA. I called her in 1995. She told me about the club and I learned allot more about the breed. She was JoAnn Beebe at that time. I called her again and she told that the club was planning an event in California. I was thrilled and asked that a premium be sent to me. I still have them premium. I talked to a couple of other founding members at that time too. One of them told me that she encouraged JoAnn to start the club. I have kept in touch with her. I attended the first "Russell Tussle" held in California in June of 1996. I had so much fun even though I didn't bring a dog to that one. Darren Housler from Australia judged for the club at that trial. I remember hearing that there had been a club for the breed (our shorter dogs) in Australia for over 20 years. I attended 2 fun days put on by Darren in 1996 and 1997. He told me that he used to help with the Australian club by working at their events, helping with racing, Go to Ground and judging the working class. The fun days were a fund raiser for the Santa Fee Hunt Club. They were held at Kings Way Farms in Temecula, CA. I have attended every event put on by the club since 1996 except the one held that year in Arizona. I have co-hosted several since 2000, including the one in 2001 judged by Avril Black.

When the breed went into UKC, I understood that the EJRTC found out it was going in, and got the UKC to register our dogs as Foundation Stock because the whole registry was submitted, not the other way around. In 2001, I talked to Cindy Cooke on the phone and she told me she wrote the UKC standard. The letter she sent the club stated that the standard was based on the standards used in Australia and Ireland (Ireland worked with Australia to get the breed recognized by FCI, because Ireland is a full FCI member and Australia is not. They used the Australian written standard to do it. The breed has been recognized in Australia since 1990). If the EJRTC wrote the original UKC standard, why didn't she say that in the letter? Why would she need to tell the EJRTC what the UKC based the standard on if the EJRTC wrote it? And the original EJRTC standard is much different than the original UKC standard. I don't think it conflicts with the UKC standard, it is just very different language. I posted the links to the 2 standards in an earlier post, so anyone can compare the 2 standards. They definitely were not written by the same person.

I was not trying to hide my identity. I thought because of my kennel name it was clear. I am Kelli Van Liew. --Vistarr (talk) 07:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Quote Directly From UKC on Their Original UKC Standard

Accordingly, the longer, shorter-legged dogs that the UKC registered as “Russell Terriers” will be recognized Jack Russell Terriers, effective January 1, 2009. The UKC will also, at that time, correct some minor changes that had been made to the UKC Russell Terrier breed standard, bringing that standard back in accordance with our original standard and that of the ANKC and the FCI.

UKC Position Statement on JRT/PRT--Vistarr (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

But would you argee then the original dog brought to the states was of English Origin and not Australia to me the Australian dog looks more like the JRTCA cross,What oriiginally was registered in the EJRTC and UKC FS looked more like the old history books,and this was the dog, there was NO FCI dogs in the original registry. Round and Round we go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.138.109.246 (talk) 20:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

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