Talk:Scoto-Norman clans

Cleanup

The current state of the article is, frankly, rubbish.

It's some kind of essay on Clan Fraser and Clan Fraser of Lovat, with very little of anything about their Scoto-Norman nature, even in that context. And it reads like it's been lifted without attribution straight out of somebody else's previous work, or original research.

But (at least for the moment), I'm not suggesting an AFD, because I think there is an interesting article which could be written on the clan structures that grew out of the Scoto-Normans planted by e.g. David I, and whether that background makes for any kind of useful or distinctive thread in understanding Scottish history. -- Jheald 21:05, 12 February 2006 (UTC).

I agree. While there is probably a place for a good article on the Scoto-Normans, this ain't it. The Clan Fraser page is pretty good, but this is an essay and clearly POV. I would bet that it's lifted from somewhere which could lead to trouble. Better to delete it and work on the Scoto-Normans article. [[Nfras 04:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)]]

Neutrality; Fraser origins

I take offense at the accusation of Frasers being Normans. We simply aren't. It is a theory, yes, but if you look at the dates, we were in Scotland before the Normans. I'm going to remove the category on the Clan Fraser page, until the matter is made clear (which will never happen). I will add a bit mentioning the theory. Canaen 10:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Fraser

{{NPOV-section}} Out of the 12th century Southland of Scotland Norman Frasers came two distinct families; Frasers of Lovat and Frasers of Philorth, now Saltoun. The Frasers of Lovat established a Highland Clan in the 13th century. They married into the land, its people and customs; in the manner of Q-Celts, becoming a Gaelic people. The Frasers of Philorth lived by, and held to, the customs and manner they took North with them along the eastern seaboard to Aberdeen in the Northeast. In Those regions was a mix of P-Celtic, Teutonic and Viking influence and it was mainly P-Celtic spoken there until the 13th century. An example of the difference between Q-Celtic and P-Celtic is that In Q-Celtic, or Gaelic, the word ‘Inver’ comes from ‘Inbher’ which means mouth of a river, as in Inverness, which is Highland. In P-Celtic, the word ‘Aber’ means mouth of a river, as in Aberdeen, which is Lowland. Highland families will always emphasize Clan Fraser of Lovat, to point out that today there is a different understanding of the Clan than there was before the mid 1980’s. It was understood before that time that the only Clan Fraser was of Lovat. Lovat in Gaelic means, ‘swampy plain’, it is a place in Inverness-shire, Scotland. The foundation of the long since fallen tower of the Castle of Lovat still lay there. The Fraser country stems out from there in a ‘V’ shape on both sides of the Loch Ness, covering much ground. It is that Highland country that was the birthplace and since that time, home of the Clan Fraser. The Gaelic patronymic for the Chief of the Clan since it’s earliest beginnings has been “MacShimidh”, which means “son of Simon”. Sir Andrew Fraser was the first of the South Country Frasers to acquire lands for himself in the Highlands, specifically Lovat. His eldest son Sir Simon was the first Chief of the Clan Fraser. It is from him that all of the true Chiefs of Clan Fraser come and so are called MacShimidh. In Aberdeenshire have always been the eminent, accomplished and well known Frasers of Philorth, now Saltoun. It had also been very well known, particularly by them, that they were not a Clan, but a family, always holding their longstanding Lowland position, maintaining their Teutonic style of life. They are and have always been a family of great character and excellent stature. No Fraser of Philorth or Saltoun has ever been called MacShimidh, because none descend from Sir Simon the original Chief, nor was one ever Chief of the Clan. The forename, Simon, is not even traditionally used by them. Philorth Frasers have no Gaelic patronymic of their own because they did not establish a Clan, nor marry into the land and its indigenous Gaelic people. Alexander Fraser, 17th Lord Saltoun, states as much of this fact in the introduction to his colorfully expansive family history, Frasers of Philorth. These Frasers did well in building great wealth for themselves, without Clan involvement. They did not participate in Clan battles, or Clan affairs, they spoke no Gaelic and did not wear the Highland garb, at least until it became fashionable in the 19th century, as was the case with other Lowland families in Scotland. They lived with great distinction as may be expected from Frasers of any region. One suffers a gross misunderstanding of these facts if one interprets them as meaning either is better than the other. That is not the point. One should simply recognize the differences and appreciate the value of each culture for its own sake. Over time, some of the lines have become blurred. In the years since the mid 19th century, as Clans were romanticized it became clear in the 20th century, to those in positions of influence, that Clan sentiment might be a good source of revenue for Scotland, bringing tourism and rightly so. Some had come to the conclusion that since a larger part of the world now understood “Clan” to mean any family from Scotland, that it might be good for Scottish economy. One of the fruits of this fact is that now practically every popular name in Scotland has a “Clan Society” regardless of their specific original lands (i.e. Angus, or Aberdeen), or place of historical inhabitance. This has done wonders for Scottish awareness throughout the world, but surprisingly little for the awareness of the distinctiveness of Highland people

As time has progressed, unfortunately so has the de-emphasis of Gaelic cultural awareness. Even much of Scotland itself, some say, has largely lost sight of the wonderful differences between Highland and Lowland people, and those cultural customs Gaelic Scots possessed and still do, that have made them such an historical enigma. History is a table that keeps turning though and this will, many pray, pass through another 180 degree turn at some point, as part of the nature of culture is to be ever-changing, repeating, and recycling itself. Today the Honorable Lady Saltoun is recognized by Decree of the Lyon Court (May 1, 1984), despite accurate Clan Fraser history, to be the “Chief of the Clan Fraser”. To a worthy Clan historian that would be considered a "harmless" misnomer. Clan is a Gaelic word meaning, “children, or family” and only Highland peoples used Gaelic. In the context of the Decree it is intended to mean all of the name of Fraser, but in a cultural context one may state with confidence that this is an inaccurate usage. The Decree was made while Simon Christopher Joseph Fraser, 24th MacShimidh, 17th Lord Lovat was still very much alive, but it is said that “Shimi” would never have considered contesting such a decree, that he was superior in his comprehension of history and that it would have been beneath him to undertake an argument. Time and attention at the Lyon Court are expensive, but we must guard against the type of cynicism that tells us that the deciding factor in an outcome there is finance. We do ourselves a disservice to focus on something so far from the issue. A number of the Clan in America have wondered about the effect, if any, the Decree may have had on the Lovat family after the fact and if, in retrospect, the late Lord Lovat might have done things differently, but these are not things worth bringing up, they have no bearing on reality. Some are thoughtful too, as to the inward reaction, if any, the Clan in Scotland may have experienced when the Decree offered Lady Saltoun to them as the “Chief of Clan Fraser”, when the Clan, as it was at that time, surely felt they already had a Chief and it was not Saltoun. Matters such as these though, are not worth the time they take to entertain. History is still as it is. Sol’s cousin Seamus told him, “It is a very notable accomplishment Sol, do not forget that. Historically, neither Philorth nor Saltoun Frasers have ever been recorded as Chiefs of anything Clan related and look at them now. It is a testament to the intelligence and skill of a person who is able to work that well through those channels.” His cousin Donnach agreed, reminding him of the story of Lord Saltoun and Mungo Murray, in the Time of Simon “The Fox” when he was Master of Lovat. History tells that the Murray Clan was trying to make a play through marriage, for the Lovat estates, using Alexander Fraser, Lord Saltoun as a part of the plan. Saltoun was going to try to become Chief of the Clan, then marry a Murray girl whose son would inherit the estates so they would all benefit. “The Fox” got wind of the under-thought plan and sent a letter advising that if either of them appeared in Fraser Country that they would regret it. The literate Gentry of the Clan drafted and signed a letter to Saltoun, stating they wanted “no borrowed Chief”. Saltoun was seen as a foreigner who would be a risk to the Clan, as he knew nothing of Clan ways, nor did he speak their native tongue. Saltoun and Murray went forth anyway and were captured and terrorized until they swore an oath never to return to the Fraser country. Clan historians say it was a little naive for lord Saltoun to think he could head a Highland Clan. It has even been argued that he had Murray along with him, not just as a conspirator, but an interpreter as well. That was nearly three hundred years ago. Decrees are thought by a number of people to be the result of credible, skilled, professional work. In the making of such, I am sure great time and care are taken in adherence to what is right. Having said that, it is worth wondering, since the Lyon Court has previously been found not to have authority in matters of precedence, or Chief-ship of Clans, how such a decree came to exist at all, but remember that it would be wrong for anyone to attack the Lord Lyon personally, regarding this or any Decree. We must trust that all of the historical data available on both sides, and experience go to interpret the facts. When there is a case presented without contest, or even in matters where it is not within the Court’s authority to make certain proclamations, it is believed that they handle the issues as professionally as they can. Scottish law says lower courts should defer to the decisions of higher courts when found to have made an error. Oversights such as those surrounding the Decree are bound to take place in a demanding bureaucratic setting, where the plate is always full, and the duties require intensely detailed attention. The Decree stands for today, but the concerned parties should be able to accept the possibility that it falls in with other past assertions of the unaware that have proven; it has always been and will always be impossible to rewrite history, especially where Highland Clans are concerned.

Needs work

srsly, ill see if can add some more stuff soon, although its not exactly my speciality ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(^Ταλκ) 16:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)