Talk:Slovak noble families

What is this supposed to mean?

As in most regions of Europe, many of the families are of non-Slovak origin, many have also non-Slovak members and many of them have become (also) Hungarian etc. families.

By this statement, almost any family could be included under any ethnicity. What is the point of this article? To try and show every family in Central Europe as somehow Slovak?

-- This is indeed a pitiful attempt to invent non-existent history, many of these noblemen probably never thought that they would be referred to as Slovak one day.

This is a sad example of altering History! Most of the families have nothing to do with being Slovak. Actualy most of their descendents would be sad to hear that they are included !!! Slovakia never existed before WWI. If you think it otherwise look up any history book. Most of the nobles in Slovakia were German or Hungarian and no original reference states otherwise (of cource some have Slavic ancestry)--Csabap 04:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Gone after it, editor's choices cut out, good ones left in. No matter, that Slovak nobility never ever existed, since they were Hungarian nobles, with Slovak ethnicity/ancestry, so, therefore, in fact the whole category:Slovak nobility is wrong. :-) Creationism...--Vince ^{hey, yo! :-)} 03:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

No matter, that nobility was never ever divided by ethnicity, but by country, where they are nobles in :D --Vince ^{hey, yo! :-)} 03:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Please, read the first sentence of the article before you remove its content. It clearly explains who is included in the list. Tankred 20:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I did, and read the sentence after it, wich is a LOL thing. Obviously you haven't read that (the second one), and what I wrote here, on the talkpage. This article is fully wrong. They were not Slovakian nobles, (and in fact Slovakian nobility never ever existed) but Hungarian nobles from the territory of present day Slovakia, some with ethnic Slovak background. I checked wich are Slovek from them, since the article's name is Slovak noble families, and it is pretty LOL to read in the second sentence, that some of them are not of slovak origin or backgound. I just cut them out. I improved the article's content, but you reverted it to a POV and obviously false version. I revert it to my version and I kindly ask you to use this discussion page.

And stop calling me a vandal. WP:CIV. Is this a big thing for you, to act civilized? --Vince ^{hey, yo! :-)} 22:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I gave a {{fact}} tag to only those, who are disputed/not proven, or I was unable to find a source. It is up to you or someone else, to find them. --Vince ^{hey, yo! :-)} 22:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Blanking content of Wikipedia is vandalism. For example, you removed the Illésházy family from the list, though they lived in Trencin Castle in Slovakia for centuries. You also removed the most famous owner of Trencin Castle, Matthew Csák. You removed the Báthory family, as if their most famous member (Elizabeth Bathory) did not live and die in Cachtice Castle in Slovakia. History of Eastern Slovakia and the Amade family is completely overlapping. Kossúths were from the Slovak region of Turiec and some of them had a strong Slovak consciousness. You cannot just blank random items from a list. Stop it. Tankred 23:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you haven't read. Kossúths are not removed from the page, since they are Slovaks (or from Slovak origin). Illésházy for example is not a Slovak name, and I haven't found any source wich claimed their ethnicity as Slovak. Same with the others.

Removing false content is not vandalism, but improvement. I suggest you to read this: John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy. Tons of mistakes are in the wikipedia. And a trend, to call everybody Slovak who can somehow connected to present day Slovakia at least by territorial issues, and also create Slovak history. This is ridicuolus, and it is an altering of history. In fact what YOU did, is vandalism. Please do not add nonsense to Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. - to be punctual. --Vince ^{hey, yo! :-)} 23:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

What? This list exists since August 2005. Now you are trying to blank it and you call me a vandal? Stop abusing vandalism warning templates! They will not give you any extra credibility. If you read the lead of this article, you will find out that this is not a list of "ethnic Slovaks". This list includes nobles who were born in the territory of Slovakia, lived there, built castles there, died there, are buried there... are part of history of that country. What exactly is wrong with that? I really doubt that Palatine Amade Aba in the 14th century held any particular ethnic identity. He clearly spoke Latin and he was formally a vassal of the King of Hungary who was Italian of French origins himself. So, in which list should we include the Amade family? Territorial identities and kinship were more important for medieval Europeans than ethnicity. This is a territorial list, not an ethnic one. Tankred 23:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, what a reason. "This list exists since August 2005". Is it really a reason why should that false content be kept? Of course: NO. If you read my comments above, you'll realize, that you again (as always) does not reflect to my problem, but try to turn this discussion into some funny way, where you prove that I'm a nationalist vandal, wich is pretty ridicuolus, since you always fail with it, because I'm not. Simply cutting back creationism, as can be seen here.

I really really do not know, how and when will I be able to somehow convince you to at least once talk about the topic, instead of trying to prove your fixed ideas on me.

My problem again, with big letters, hoping to reach you: Article name: SLOVAK not slovakian! NOBLE FAMILIES. Got it? The list should contain the Slovak noble families, not all the Slovakian noble families. Got it? Big difference. This page is not a territorial list.

And: Slovakia exist since 1991, so "Slovakian noble families" would be a creation. A thing, wich never existed. So, restricting to only the Slovak nobles, or deleteing this article would be the right thing. --Vince ^{hey, yo! :-)} 00:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW: According t your logic, none of the edits should be removed, and for example this is a vandalism made by you, by deleting quotations, no matter, that in fact that anon's edit was the vandalism... --Vince ^{hey, yo! :-)} 00:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Now I see that your vandalism (blanking most of an article) was unintentional, caused by your misunderstanding of the word "Slovak". If you have troubles understanding English, please, use a dictionary. I recommend for example an excellent American Heritage Dictionary. I will copy a line from it for you:

"Slovak - adj. Of or relating to Slovakia or its people, language, or culture."

The words "Slovak" and "Slovakian" are synonyms and their use in the article's name does not necessarily imply ethnicity (as I explained in the article's lead). Compare with similar adjectives, such as "French" (i.e. "Of, relating to, or characteristic of France or its people or culture."). In the category French nobility, you can find nobles who died before France was even created as well as nobles of German or Catalan ethnicity. Why? Because the word "French" relates to the country of France, not only to the French ethnie. The same is true in the Slovak case. So, will you now remove the "disputed" tag or you have any other problem with this article? Tankred 16:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

"Slovak - adj. Of or relating to Slovakia or its people, language, or culture." Slovakia exists since 1991. If you want, we can say between 1938-45 and since 1991. It can not be connected to a that time non existed country, wich was BTW that time was called as Upper Hungary, or Highlands. This is a creation. Maybe read again what I wrote a bit upper. This page can not be a territorial list, max an ethnic one, I changed its tontent to fit for this. It is funny too, since there's no Essexian noble families, but English noble families Not to mention that some of them had nothing to do with the culture or the ppl (ok, except their peasants and employees), just lived there, or had lands there. OFF:And we know, that nobles very very barely mixed with ppl of lower rank, and those kids were not granted to enter the nobility. --Vince ^{hey, yo! :-)} 18:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

See I have tried to present the same argument to these Slovak nationalists to no avail. There are many articles in the English wikipedia that need objective cleanup (just take a look at articles dealing with Hungarian historical figures like Benyovszky or Jedlik Ányos and you will get my point). Oversized Slovak national consciousness has clearly no place in an English encyclopedia. Árpád 07:15, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello guys, everything OK? Slovakia was established from January 1, 1993 (1991???) see Slovakia and SLOVAK has meaning like ENGLISHMAN and SLOVAKIAN has meaning like ENGLISH. Have a nice day :-) --Sibenicky (talk) 13:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Ahoj. And what then? --Koppany (talk) 04:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Just change the title of this page for: Hungarian noble families with slovakian origin. Thats it. I hope that everyone will be happy then. maybe. --Sibenicky (talk) 08:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge

The public law of Slovakia has never accepted the existence of nobility, because Slovakia was established as a republic. All the noble families who lived or have been living in the territory of present day Slovakia were members of the nobility of the Kingdom of Hungary. Therefore the article Nobility in the Kingdom of Hungary could describes all the features of the nobility independently of their origin, because the public law of the kingdom did not differentiate its nobility based on its nationality. Borsoka (talk) 10:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)