Talk:Taliban/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

The small matter of spelling

The UK's The Times usually goes with the spelling Taleban – could this be adopted? 195.188.183.124 08:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Further to this topic, the article uses two spellings of the general name for fighters: "Mujahidin" and "Mujahideen". One or the other should be used throughout. --ChrisWinter 19:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

NATO invasion and displacement of Taliban

How many Taliban killed in those attacks? Write these statistics in this heading, if anybody knows.10:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)Touseefliaqat

A Time magazine article geustimated around 10,000. I'll try to find it later Max The Dog 22:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Update: I checked, I couldn't find anything. There are plenty of estimates, but they vary widely based on the prevailing political motivation of the author. Max The Dog 22:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Execution of Iranian Diplomats

Does anyone have any details regarding the 1998 execution of Iranian diplomats? I've found a few references online but nothing comprehensive. Thanks Max The Dog 22:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

removed from "Islamic law"

Ironically, with the fall of the Taliban, American presence and rise of the Northern Alliance, the crime rate in Kabul is all time high as reported by independent media and some mainstream news agencies like BBC. ^{[verification needed]}

I removed this because it is

Unsourced
Stupidly opinionated (It isn't ironic, and even it it were, we shouldn't say so)
Poorly written
Irrelevant (this describes post-Taliban conditions, but this article is about the Taliban)

We do have a section called "Post-Taliban". This should be moved here. -Brian

Origin of the Taliban?

The first sentence in the body of the article reads, "On 1997-05-20, brother Generals Abdul Malik Pahlawan and Mohammed Pahlawan mutinied from under Uzbek warlord Rashid Dostum's command and formed an alliance with the Taliban."

But where and how did the Taliban originate? How was it created? Who were its founders? Why were they in Afghanistan? What were they trying to achieve? Isn't it logical for the article to cover these subjects first before going on to describe how the Taliban rose to power and who they were forming alliances with? -- noosph e re 03:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't seen anything to substantiate this. It is commonly believed that the Taliban's origins lie in the madrasas of Pakistan. --CG

Vandalism

I have removed some cases of apparent vandalism from this article.

The "Women" sub-section, some freak had written that Taleban actually protected women. He didnt even know his english words though!

The same guy had added that "Taleban destroyed all opium fields", which I have changed to the commonly held fact.

Wikipedia - An Exercise in Futilty - A Failed Resource

I submitted a perfectly acceptable factual report on the treatment of women under the Taliban which was part of an Amnesty International report on human rights abuses - it was factual yet it was deleted. If Wiki wants to be a respected online resource then there has to be some kind of allowance for the truth however unpalatable. A paragraph stating women were made to wear a bhurka and beaten with thin sticks is like asying a few people were killed in Rwanda. Its a joke. As it stands now the Taliban page is a joke. For anyone who cares to know the truth here is the Amnesty International report:

The lives of hundreds of thousands of Afghan women and children have been shattered in the human rights catastrophe that has devastated Afghanistan. Thousands have been killed in artillery attacks apparently aimed deliberately at residential areas by the various political factions who have been fighting for territory since April 1992 when the Mujahideen groups took power. Thousands of others have been wounded Amnesty International AI Index: ASA 11/03/95 Armed groups have massacred defenceless women in their homes, or have brutally beaten and raped them. Scores of young women have been abducted and then raped, taken as wives by commanders or sold into prostitution. Some have committed suicide to avoid such a fate. Scores of women have reportedly "disappeared" and several have been stoned to death. Hundreds of thousands of women and children have been displaced or are living as refugees abroad. Many are traumatized by the horrific abuses they have suffered or witnessed. Amnesty International AI Index: ASA 11/03/95 These gross human rights violations of so many unarmed civilian women have been committed with total impunity. The Constitution has been suspended. Laws have become meaningless. The judicial structures have been destroyed. The central authorities have become virtually defunct. As a result, there has been little prospect of any of the perpetrators being brought to justice Amnesty International AI Index: ASA 11/03/95 Alongside these appalling abuses, women have been prevented from exercising several of their fundamental rights -- including the rights to association, freedom of expression and employment -- by Mujahideen groups who consider such activities to be un-Islamic for women. For instance, Mujahideen guards are reported to have stopped women from working outside their homes, or from attending health and family planning courses organized by non-governmental organizations. Educated women, particularly those working in the fields of education and welfare, have been repeatedly threatened by Mujahideen groups. Amnesty International AI Index: ASA 11/03/95 Several refugee families told Amnesty International of a woman in labour who had been taken to a hospital in Kabul by her husband one evening at about 10pm in early 1994. There was a curfew in force at the time and cars were not allowed in the streets of Kabul. Armed guards reportedly stopped the car at a checkpoint, telling the husband that they would take the woman to the hospital themselves and that he should go back home. The next day, the husband was told at the hospital that the woman had not been taken there. The husband went to the guards to ask where his wife was. They reportedly showed him the dead bodies of the woman and the newly-born baby, telling him that since they had only seen videos of women delivering babies, they wanted to see how a baby was delivered in real life. Amnesty International AI Index: ASA 11/03/95

Islamic fundamentalism of any kind in essence looks upon women as sub-humans, fit only for household slavery and as a means of procreation. Such an outrageous view has incredibly been elevated to the status of official policy with the coming to power of the ignorant Taliban. Not only the Jehadis (Northern Alliance etc.) and Taliban but all Islamists (advocates of an Islamic political system) target women’s rights as a first priority, citing mediaeval Sharia (Islamic law) as their authority Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan With the coming to power of Islamic fundamentalists in 1992, women’s right to full participation in social, economic, cultural and political life of the country was drastically curtailed and later on summarily denied them by the Taliban. Under the latter, women were totally deprived of the right to education (all girls’ school were closed down), of the right to work (all women were ordered to remain in their houses and employers were threatened with dire consequences for taking up female employees), of the right to travel (no woman could venture out of the house alone and unaccompanied by a prescribed male member of the woman’s immediate family), of the right to health (no woman could see a male doctor, family planning was outlawed, women could not be operated upon by a surgical team containing a male member), of the right to legal recourse (a woman’s testimony was worth half a man’s testimony; a woman could not petition the court directly – this had to be done through a prescribed male member of her immediate family), of the right to recreation (all women’s recreational and sporting facilities had been banned, women singers could not sing least their female voices ‘corrupt’ males, etc.), and of the right to being human (they could not show their faces in public to male strangers, they could not wear bright colored clothing, they could not wear make up, they could only appear outside their houses clad head to foot in shapeless bags called burqas, they could not wear shoes with heels that click [least the clicking sound of their feet corrupt males], they could not travel in private vehicles with male passengers, they did not have the right to raise their voices when talking in public, they could not laugh loud as it lures males into corruption, etc. etc.) Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan Beating up of women for ‘disciplinary’ reasons on the slightest pretext (wearing brightly colored shoes or thin stockings, having their bare ankles show when they walk, having their voices raised when they speak, having the sound of their laughter reach the ears of men strangers, having their heels click when walking etc.) was a routine phenomenon in Afghanistan under the Taliban. Through such public beatings (which more often than not have resulted in death or disablement of the victim) the Taliban had cowed the civilian population into submission Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan In Taliban-controlled areas - about 90% of the country - women were not allowed to work; they may not leave their homes unless covered from head to toe in the burqa or chadary and accompanied by a close male relative; girls' schools have been closed. The economic consequences of the ban on women working is especially evident in the capital where female beggars can be seen everywhere. Many of them are widows, left with children to support after years of war. Some female doctors are able to practice. This is particularly important because the Taliban will not allow male doctors to treat female patients. Rape of women by armed guards belonging to the various warring factions appears to be condoned by leaders as a method of intimidating vanquished populations and of rewarding soldiers. In March 1994 a 15-year-old girl was repeatedly raped in her house in Kabul's Chel Sotoon district after armed guards entered the house and killed her father for allowing her to go to school Amnesty International AI Index: ASA 11/03/95

While in power the Taliban claimed that the education of girls in rural Afghanistan was increasing, a UNESCO report said that there was "a whopping 65% drop in their enrollment. In schools run by the Directorate of Education, only 1 per cent of the pupils are girls. The percentage of female teachers, too, has slid from 59.2 percent in 1990 to 13.5 percent in 1999."[citation needed] Supporters of the Taliban suggested that the depression and the other problems plaguing Afghan women were the result of dire poverty, years of war, the bad economy, and the fact that many were left war widows, and could no longer provide food for their families without some sort of international aid.[citation needed] The Taliban justified the requirement for women to wear the burqa by appeal to Islamic teachings which state that women must cover up her body in front of non-mahram men, and that both men and women should dress modestly. Many people saw the repression under the Taliban as a form of misogyny and gender apartheid.[7] Several Afghan refugees recalled the plight of a young woman who lived in Shahrara district of Kabul in early 1994. "Her husband had been killed in a bomb attack. She had three children of between two and nine years old. One day she leaves her children to go and find some food. Two Mujahideen armed guards arrest her in the street and take her to their base in a house where 22 men rape her for three days. She is then allowed to go. When she reaches her home she finds her three children have died of hypothermia. She has now lost her sanity and lives in Peshawar." Amnesty International AI Index: ASA 11/03/95 This report shows that women are the main victims of the continuing human rights crisis in Afghanistan. They are being killed and maimed in what appears to be deliberate artillery attacks on civilians. They are being targeted for assassination, abduction and rape. These abuses are being committed with total impunity by government forces and armed political groups who are prepared to terrorize the civilian population in order to secure and reinforce their power bases. Leaders of armed political groups have been able, when they wished, to release detained civilians and prevent arbitrary killings and other abuses. Yet most of the time they have chosen not to. While frequently claiming that they wish to "restore" religious, ethnic and humane standards, those engaged in the fighting have persistently indulged in widespread human rights abuses and looting of property. Even non-violent groups such as women's organizations have been systematically targeted for attacks -- sometimes justified [can we find a better phrase instead 'justified'? Can we say: 'portrayed as being' on religious grounds but in reality motivated by the warring factions' attempt to control and intimidate civilians Amnesty International AI Index: ASA 11/03/95

Actually what you presented was a perfect copyright violation. Please stop directly copying and pasting material from websites into articles. --Wafulz 20:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or is this article pure propoganda? I say this because each section presents claims o the Taliban's policies, then goes on to substantiate those claims with events that have nothing to do with the Taliban. You can clearly see from the dates associated with these "evidences" that they occured before Taliban control, and as such actually substantiate Taliban claims that the movement was begun to prevent these types of attacks (see the ambassador's speech that was linked way above). 71.139.157.166 meelash 9:29, 28 January 2007

Women

I've had to delete almost all of the text in this section- particularly submissions from Euclid22. It's all important information, but it's also all copyrighted text that was taken from other websites. Feel free to rewrite it in a manner that does not infringe on the copyrights of others. The edit can be found here. Also, there was a ton of information- I'd say enough to merit eventually creating an article for Women's rights in Afghanistan or something similar. --Wafulz 20:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Members of Taliban Government

Why is there no information on who was in control of Taliban beyond the unlinked names of Mohammed Omar and a few scattered individuals? This page is horrible. If I wanted to study the actual government of the Taliban, this site would definitely NOT be the place to go. 24.255.103.193 20:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Well the whole purpose of wikipedia is for people to add what they know. If you know, why not add? If you want you can request an article or section be expanded.--209.171.47.7 17:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this is worth reading

This article puts the multi-billion dollar opium-herion industry into scope in regards to Afghanistan. It deals with the Northern Alliance and the Taliban too and paints a clearer picture. If you want to learn more about this aspect of Afghansitan and how it ties in with Kosovo, the KLA, and the rest of the world and the world economy read this article.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NAZ20061017&articleId=3516

Unless anyone objects, I'm adding this to the External Links. abdullahazzam

More on 1, Rise to power

Not only is the format of this section wrong - I believe this quote:

"The Taliban were unfortunately extremely callous when it came to successfully running a country. They overlooked the fact that the nation was starving and were more worried about people having beards than the fact that they were dying by the thousands."

devalidates the entire section, it should be removed if there cannot be found any reference for it. It reeks of unsubstantial personal opinion and fiction.

220.244.244.189 11:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Unless it is true and it could be. It needs to be re-written. 198.151.12.8 17:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Removing following lines

"As their ranks swelled, the original core body of Pakistan and Afghan soldiers assumed more specialized roles. Pakistan supported Mullah Omar, in order to put a more public face on what, up until then, had been a largely faceless movement.[citation needed] The mullah-ization of the Taliban became Pakistan's means of ensuring total control of the militia, with independent-thinking non-fundamentalists quickly being subordinated or marginalized. With Mullah Omar at the helm, more and more fundamentalists swelled Taliban's ranks, rapidly weakening Pakistan's control over the organization."

Once again besides lacking neutral source, it is self-contradictory. On the one hand it says "The mullah-ization of the Taliban became Pakistan's means of ensuring total control of the militia", and in next breath it says Mullah Omar and radicalization of Taliban rapidly weakened Pakistan's control. Both statements cannot be true at same time. (Mnyaseen 03:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC))

History

This section suffers from an almost total lack of cites. It also makes a lot of unverifiable claims, specifically regarding the various factions internal motivations for doing this. Could the original author attend to this before I start chopping the offending text? Ashmoo 03:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Vehicle on the photo

Is it pickup or a jeep really? --HanzoHattori 01:46, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

it's a pickup, probably a toyota hilux. tha taliban seemed loved them. bluuurgh 11:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I think they call those "technicals" in military jargon, also known as the "poor man's APC". (Will, 16:23, 18/12/2006)

This photo can now be found on wikimedia. How do I update this page's entry? bluuurgh 17:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Islamic Emirate of Waziristan??

The Pakistani government has not recognized any such emirate, neither is the "taliban" in control of waziristan. That area has always been a sort of wild west and remains as such. The information about Waziristan here is wrong.

Buddhas of Bamiyan

The article says "The government of Pakistan (itself host to one of the richest and most antiquated collections of Buddhist art) implored the Taliban to spare the statues." The word "antiquated" means "old-fashioned, out of date" (Wiktionary). Surely that's not the meaning here? I think possibly "most ancient" would be the thought. Jack 21:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Removing the following lines,,, "Locals claim that Pakistani and Saudi engineers were on site as volunteers to help with the statues' destruction, and that Afghanistan's museum treasures were ferried across the border to be plundered by private collectors."

Besides being un-referenced, highly likely to be anti-Pakistani propaganda (like most of the article). Were they wearing Pakistani or Saudi ID cards? Or did they leave behind Bills of Lading before ferrying away the ruins? Or how much of engineering one needs to destroy something? For those who love to breed anti-Pakistani hatred, how many Indian engineers were needed to destroy Babri Mosque? (Mnyaseen 02:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC))

Merge

I think the article Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should be merged with this one, though there is really nothing to be merged. The article doesn't provide any notable information that the article Taliban can not or does not provide. I really don't think we need the article Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.Bless sins 22:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

POV again

"...the ultimate genuine political aspiration that the decrepit and bankrupt Pashtun tribal society and culture are capable of expressing."

I am deleting this one. Bigplans 04:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to add comments on the talk page when deleting obvious vandalism. Ashmoo 05:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Nail Polish??

This line appears under the Buddhas of Bamiyan section: "If women were even caught with fingernail polish on they would get their fingers choped off." Um. If nothing else, this statement doesn't belong in the Buddhas section. Furthermore, while the treatment and subjugation of women is an important topic, this statement is not at all pertinent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.86.133.220 (talk) 18:28, 3 February 2007 (UTC).

Conspiracy theory section

Is the conspiracy theory section necessary? It is full of uncited claims that if true are acts of gross negligence and incompetence from US government and intelligence agencies to solve a problem of relatively low importance for their own strategic priorities. Surely this section needs to have citations or be removed. MLA 17:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

English spelling

On some news websites (the BBC, particular) spell the word Taleban. Anyone know the origin of this? 69.95.208.155 20:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

In Teheran Persian short /i/ is pronounced like /e/. But it's not Pashto (nor Arabic pronunciation). It's a feature of the Teheran dialect of Persian and using it in a non-Persian word is as wrong as pronouncing English 'sit' as 'set'. Aminullah 19:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Treatment of Women

I had to delete a large amount of what I see as absolute garbage that has apparently been inserted by a pro-Taliban person. Among other things, this person uses the section to rant about the United States's executions, the media, etc. He also apparently seems to believe that the Taliban's laws are the word of God, and that most people actually agree with him. He talks directly to the reader, saying such things as "The Western Media doesn't tell you this", "The United States don't want you to know this", "The West exploits this", and, my personal favorite:

"The United States criticize the Taliban for its executions despite them being few. An average of 80 people are executed in America every year, One of the highest rates in the world. This shows Americas backwards policy on the Taliban even though the number of executions are below 100 from 1996-2001."

That was in the "Treatment of Women" section. Absolutely irrelevant. If this person wants to talk about executions, then he should at least find the right section of the article, and not act like he knows better than everyone else while writing it.

I deleted the garbage and replaced it with some basic information, although I don't have enough knowledge of the subject to write a truely informative piece. I'd appreciate it very much if someone would add some actual information, or revert it to an older edit that is less biased and more informative. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 163.153.222.110 (talk) 15:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

The full deleted text is here:

Women were allowed Islamic Education up until Marriage in which their obligaion was to stay home and take care of family. Western Media extorts that women are denied education however this is a pure lie. In February 2007, A Taliban Commander announced the opening of schools for boys first, later girls in Helmand province.

Women were made to wear the burka A traditional islamic dress in accordance with Islamic Law. According to the 4 madhabs the covering of the face is an obligation. This is held by the majority of the Muslim scholars although some Muslims scholars will disagree. You may see Muslim women being beaten by the Taliban for violating the Shareeah. But the Media fails to show you they do the same thing to men. Another popular myth about Afgan women is they are denied employment. However, the Taliban had women Police officers, doctors and nurses. Women were also allowed to set up business' outside there homes to sell items. Through 30 years of constant war their is barely enough jobs for anyone. So the west exploits this. Also the west says the Taliban deny women the right to vote. Men and women both didnt vote as the Ameer is chosen through a shura councell.

A popular myth is the Taliban executed scores of women for random small acts. But even according to RAWA execution of women was minimal. From the time the Taliban took control in 1996 to 1999. The Taliban only executed 1 women by the name of Zarmeena. Which is the only clip you see of an Afghan women being shot in the back of the head. This clip is played over and over again since it is the only one. She was convicted of murdering her husband by hitting him in the head with a hammer when he slept. Murder in Islam is punishable by execution. She was the only known women to be killed officially by the Taliban. However, a few more were convicted for prostituion which is also punishable by death. The United States criticize the Taliban for its executions despite them being few. An average of 80 people are executed in America every year, One of the highest rates in the world. This shows Americas backwards policy on the Taliban even though the number of executions are below 100 from 1996-2001.

Please be careful of your own pro-USA bias. It is better to comment out, or move text to the talk page for evaluation, rather than cherry-pick for quotes. Also, sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~), and move text if irrelevant to a section, rather than deleting it. — Jack · talk · 11:12, Wednesday, 28 March 2007

Evil relative to what?

If the purpose is to truthfully and accurately inform people about the Taliban why use inflammatory words like 'evil'? Why not just provide information about the conditions in Afghanistan before, during and after the rule of the Taliban and let people compare and contrast?

Also, why is there so little information regarding the Taliban's rise to power? What percentage of the Afghan population supported this rise to power and why? What percentage of the Afghan population supports strict Islam and Sharia law?

If living conditions in Afghanistan were terrible for at least the last twenty years then why is the Taliban singled out...if not for propaganda purposes?

Also, why is there no discussion of the contribution of the United States, Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia to the devastation of Afghanistan and the resultant dismal standard of living. The United States was responsible for over 65,000 tons of weapons a year being brought into Afghanistan as we encouraged and aided the Afghans to fight our proxy war with the Soviets. Once the Soviets were expelled where was the aid to rebuild the country? Where was the U.S. interest in human rights then?

Probably the most civil rights and best standard of living, in recent history, in Afghanistan was during the rule of the communists with aid from the Soviet Union. The United States was a fundamental source in the overthrow of the communists and the resulting collpase of the country. Now it is apparently necessary to turn the Taliban into some sort of bogeyman to justify the U.S. invasion and further devastation of the country.

69.179.91.116 23:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it article on Taliban or Scum?

The first picture I see is of Taliban beating women.
The second picture I see is of Taliban beating women.
The third picture I see is of Taliban destroying statues.

It seems wikipedia is trying to prove that Taliban only do two kind of works.
- a- They beat women.
- b- they destroy statues.
Trash. All trash hate mongering on wikipedia again. Do you people think you are selling encyclopedic articles?

VirtualEye 07:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The article does show the Taliban in a very negative light which is not following the neutral policy at all. The pictures are not flattering and do not show the entire story behind who the Taliban are and why they exist. The content is bias and not rounded. Sirtrebuchet 22:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

You're both perfectly welcome to go find pictures depicting the Taliban in a positive light. Considering that photography was banned, I think it would probably be a difficult task. --Hojimachong^talk 03:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The Taliban...one of the "lost tribes of Israel?"

It may sound totally absurd to some, but some think that one the "lost tribes of Israel" thought to be authentically related to the ancient Israelites is the Taliban, which are part of the Pashtun people of Afghanistan and Pakistan (who were the ruling class of Afghanistan until toppled by the U.S. after 9/11). Many of them have Jewish names, local words and linguistic variations not related to indigenous languages but which are related to Hebrew, and share some old Jewish customs (for example, the pre-Islamic Pashtunwali code is similar to Jewish Mosaic Law), and some archaeologists have found ancient monuments testifying to their possible Jewish origins. Even stoning people to death is still found among them as was commonly practiced in ancient Israel. See little known-little circulated controversial articles: Is One of the Lost Tribes the Taliban? -- Taliban may have origin in ancient tribe of Israel: Anthropologist finds many similarities. Even the Jewish Virtual Library has some info here. Strangely enough though, there is only one 'official' Jew still living in Afghanistan, one Zebulon Simentov. --Wassermann 09:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

List of Grievances

"The Taliban continued the long trend of brutal oppression of the Hazara people [...]" This does not sound like something that ought to be in an encyclopedia entry. The taliban article seems to be more a listing of grievances than a NPOV description. Perhaps simply documenting what they are and what they have done and do now is enough. Leave the negative reporting to analysts. - 02:38, 27 April 2007 (PST)

Adding information

I'm adding some historical and ideological information from Ahmed Rashid's book. It is one source and so maybe accused of "undue weight" or whatever the phrase is, but he's a highly respected source. --Leroy65X 22:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

I'd like to thank people who have correcting my typos and misspellings. Editting on the fly at work doesn't always provide enough time for doublechecking. --Leroy65X 15:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)