Talk:Tattwas

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I am going to be editing this page throughout the week. There is much more to be added. --Rmcnew (talk) 10:53, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

If anyone else has anything to add that is of relevance to the tattwas according to western tradition, please do. --Rmcnew (talk) 13:38, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

This article should be combined with the tattva article. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Removing: Secular Usage [Ausura Augusta's Socionics Theory]

As I did with the "Esoteric links to Socionics" section of the Socionics article, I am removing this section and its "references", because those articles do not at all substantiate the claims made in this section, which is made up of nothing but baseless statements (e.g. "socionics ... can be proven without a shadow of doubt to be the same thing as the western zodiac", "It can be argued that the word "Socion" is another way to say "Zodiac", etc.) Powpowpowpowpow (talk) 17:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I should add that I removed all Socionics-related content on the page, seeing as how nothing had been shown sufficiently linking the theory to tattwas; this removal included the links to www.socionics.com and www.the16types.info, as those are socionics-only websites. (They do not discuss tattwas.) I will leave the link to www.metasocion.com, but will clearly label it as a website for discussing a hypothesis. Powpowpowpowpow (talk) 23:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

First off, you have no justified basis for removing any of these articles. The tattwas have been legitimately linked to socionics, as well as the esoteric links. I am reverting all of you changes on the basis that removing these resources is a neutrality dispute. --Rmcnew (talk) 21:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with a neutrality dispute (which is ironic considering the non-neutral language you yourself used in the article), and everything to do with how your "sources" don't back up any of the claims made in what you have written. These claims include: "It can be argued that the word "Socion" is another way to say "Zodiac", "socionics ... can be proven without a shadow of doubt to be the same thing as the western zodiac", "It has been hypothesized that socionics is actually a rewritten form of legitimate alchemy", and "The primary evidence being the striking resemblance that the socionics functions have to the alchemical elements known as Tattwas". None of these statements are addressed in the "sources" you have provided.

Also, there is absolutely no reason that www.socionics.com and www.the16types.info should be linked from this article, as neither of those websites discuss Tattwas. I'm reverting everything. Powpowpowpowpow (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, that is so much better. DISPUTE INDIVIDUAL POINTS for improvement of quality. This deleting the whole thing business because of small debatable issues is showing a lack of neutrality. I don't mind the small things being debated, just stop deleting the whole thing. --Rmcnew (talk) 21:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I should also note that I am considering your removal of the sources proving these connections is considered by me to be wiki vandalism, and I am reporting you on the basis. --Rmcnew (talk) 21:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

"The Tattwas (or Tattvas in eastern traditions) are five cosmic elements used in some esoteric western traditions that consist of shapes similar to platonic solids" - this is a non-neutral POV - it is your opinion that they look similar.

"It has been hypothesized that the Tattwas are the same as those symbols found in Ausura Augusta's socionics theory." - hypothesized by who? If just you, then this should not be on wikipedia.

"while Socionics has strong verifiable ties to..." - non-neutral POV.

"The extent socionics has derived theory from these sources is an issue of debate among westerners." - an issue of debate between who specifically? If it's just you versus everybody else, this statement has no place on wikipedia.

"which bears information elements closely resembling the Tattwas" - reference?

"It has been hypothesized that socionics is actually a rewritten form of legitimate alchemy, metaphysics, cosmology, and occult philosophy that is being passed on as a new typology." - the cited article makes no such claim. Also, far from being legitimate, the anthropological study with which parallels were made between Socionics and one culture's mythological warriors has been shown to be highly suspect.

"The primary evidence being the striking resemblance that the socionics functions have to the alchemical elements known as Tattwas" - "striking resemblance" is an unqualified statement.

"the fact that socionics (through comparison to the Tattwas) can be proven without a shadow of doubt to be the same thing as the western zodiac," - "without a shadow of a doubt" is a non-neutral POV, and is also not referenced.

"and a suspicious obsession that the socionics founder Ausura Augusta (aka Aušra Augustinavičiūtė) had with mysticism [7] and chakras[8][9] towards the end of her life" - "suspicious obsession" is emotive language which should not be used.

"It can be argued that the word "Socion" is another way to say "Zodiac." - argued by who? If just you, this should not be on wikipedia.

"Socionics cosmologically breaks down to Astrology in the following ways:" - what is the origin of this chart? If it is just your interpretation, it should not be on wikipedia.

"The above picture clearly shows that the functions within socionics theory descended from a combination of the tattwas and also the western zodiac." - "cleary shows" is a non-neutral POV which shouldn't be used. RudieBoy (talk) 22:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Rudieboy, the article will be edited according to your suggestions --Rmcnew (talk) 21:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Socionics has verifiable ties to hindu philosophy, tattwas, the western zodiac, cosmology, mysticism, and the occult. On account of the overall obscurity of socionics in general these ties tend to be known and discussed more in the east than in the west. The extent socionics has derived theory from these sources is an issue of debate among westerners. While socionics itself is typically secular, founder Ausura Augusta herself was verifiable involved with mysticism. Hindu philosophical thinking, chakras , and cosmological connections have been widely discussed topics among socionics authors —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmcnew (talk • contribs) 23:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Socionics material removed and this whole article moved to the tattvas article

Socionics material has been removed and this whole article is being moved to tattvas article ...