Talk:The Holy Land

Is "Holy Land" used only by Christians? Does the equivalent translations get used by Jews, Muslims, Bahais,...? -- Error

why is this artical only about the muslum use of the word? shouldn't part be on the Chrisian and Jewish uses? or any other religion that may use the phrase (assuming of course that there are others)?T-rex 18:19, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Arḍ ul-Quds and al-Quds the same thing?

Is it your claims that Arḍ ul-Quds and al-Quds are the same thing? Jayjg 17:13, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I can't hear your pronunciation though that white block coming out your mouth. If you mean "Ard". Ard is land. al-Quds is holy and refers to the holy places of Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem. The land of the holy places does not change definition for Muslims even during periods of foreign occupation by Crusaders or Zionists. --Alberuni 17:35, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The article here says that the term for Holy Land is "Arḍ ul-Quds". The Jerusalem article says that the term for Jerusalem is "al-Quds". Now, we know that the region of Meccan and Medina is called "Arḍ ul-Quds"; the question is, it Jerusalem ever called that, or is it simply called "al-Quds"? Jayjg 17:39, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Don't take my word for it. Go ask a Muslim, if you can find one who will talk to you. --Alberuni 17:44, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So are you saying "yes", Jerusalem is referred to as "Ard ul-Quds"? Jayjg 17:47, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

ِI hadn't heard the term before personally (my Arabic is getting rusty, alas), but a quick Google search suggests that it refers to Palestine as a whole, the "Land of Jerusalem". - Mustafaa 22:46, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, that makes sense. (It's an LDS convention as well, but it's not the sole reason it makes sense to me.) - Gilgamesh 01:11, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"The word Al-Quds, as mentioned in the authoriative Arab Dictionary, Lisanul-Arab (Arab Tongue) under the stem Quds means glorification of Allah."; why do you say it means "holy"? And how do you respond to the statement that "Ard al-Quds" refers to "Land of Jerusalem", not "Holy Land"? Do you have any links which translate it this way (aside from Wikipedia based ones)? Jayjg 15:41, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The primary meaning of "al-Quds" is Jerusalem; its etymological meaning is "holy", which is still used but is less common in practice. It is cognate to Hebrew Qodesh, incidentally. - Mustafaa 16:34, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm not sure where this leaves us; would an Arab speaker understand "Ard al Quds" as meaning "land of Jerusalem" or "Holy Land"? Is there any other way of saying "Holy Land" in Arabic? Interesting about Qodesh, by the way. Jayjg 16:37, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, now you mention it, one could also say "al-Ard al-Muqaddasah", a term which a quick search shows is attested in the Qur'an (al-Ma'idah 21), described in early Islamic tradition by az-Zujaj as "Damascus, Palestine, and a bit of Jordan", and by Qatada as "the Levant (ash-Sham)" and by Maad ibn Jabal as "the area between al-Arish and the Euphrates", and by Ibn Abbas as "the land of Jericho".[1] I think this is probably a better translation of "Holy Land" than "Ard al-Quds". "Holy Valley", incidentally, is a Qur'anic epithet of Tuwa, the valley where God told Moses to go to Pharaoh. - Mustafaa 17:25, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ِAlberuni, do you have any citations for the use of "Holy Land" in Islamic contexts to refer to the Hijaz? I'm not sure I've come across that usage. - Mustafaa 17:28, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In the Qur'an, Holy Land refers to the Levant, the land of Jerusalem where Musa (Moses) led his followers. Non-Muslims seem very intent on excluding Muslims from the Holy land by claiming that "the Muslims holy land is Saudi Arabia, not Palestine". I would estimate that the term "Holy Land" is used today by English-speaking Muslims to refer to Palestine 99% of the time and the Hijaz maybe 1% of the time, for instance, [2]: "The twin cities of Makkah and Medina are in the province of Hijaz. Hijaz, therefore, is the holy land of Islam." Perhaps Muslims are more spiritual and less material than those who think that the Holy Land is more holy to them than others. "Malik related to me from Yahya ibn Said that Abu'd-Darda wrote to Salman al-Farsi, "Come immediately to the holy land." Salman wrote back to him, "Land does not make anyone holy. Man's deeds make him holy." (Muwatta Hadith #37.8.7) --Alberuni 18:32, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh... I thought you were the one arguing for inclusion of the Hijaz, which is why I hesitated to remove it, since I figured you would know. I think I've cleared up the article a bit now. - Mustafaa 18:55, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, obviously it's our resident fanatic Zionist who wishes to relegate the Muslim Holy land to any place other than the Holy Land that has been occupied by Zionists. --Alberuni 19:10, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

According to Osama bin Ladin, "For more than seven years the United States is occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of its territories, Arabia, plundering its riches, overwhelming its rulers, humiliating its people, threatening its neighbors, and using its bases in the peninsula as a spearhead to fight against the neighboring Islamic peoples."[3] Many other sources, feel the same way, such as: "To begin with, we say that the hostile, treacherous, and lowly conduct of the Najd and al-Hijaz rulers practically removes the sanctity of the holy land because it was turned into a scene for the infidel Americans and their British allies who use this land as a springboard for the daily attacks on the sincere believers in great Iraq. [4] "in the Holy Land of Hijaz" [5] "According to Prophetic tradition, the Arabian Peninsula is sacred territory. Non-Muslims are forbidden to set foot there. The sanctity of this sacred territory has been violated since the emergence of the House of Saud in control of the Haramain... How this monstrosity came to be imposed on such a holy land of Islam is a story that needs to be told in detail." [6] "the holy land of Hijaz." [7] "The twin cities of Makkah and Medina are in the province of Hijaz. Hijaz, therefore, is the holy land of Islam." [8]. etc. These Muslim voices and many others are quite emphatic that the Hijaz is the "Holy Land" of Islam; many other Muslim sources referring to Israel as the Holy Land appear to be following older English convention rather than making a religious claim. Jayjg 19:05, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The usage doesn't seem "much more rare" to me, perhaps you'd like to look at that. Jayjg 19:07, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Most of your references are to "a holy land" rather than "the Holy Land"; "Holy Land" is used in the Qur'an only once, and that's to refer to Palestine. The Bin Laden ones are also suspect, as politically motivated. However, a couple of your citations do provide evidence that modern Muslims, unlike traditional ones, occasionally call the Hijaz "the Holy Land"; this usage should duly be noted. As for the usage, Google seems to confirm what I would have assumed was obvious: that the Qur'anic usage predominates. - Mustafaa 19:12, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Response delayed by edit conflict....Appropriate that you Jayjg would quote Osama, another religious fanatic. several of the quotes you pulled are translations and they don't say THE Holy Land, they say "a holy land". Of course, Mecca and Medina are a holy land. That doesn't mean they are "The Holy Land" which in the Qur'an definitely refers to the land of the Jerusalem valley, Palestine. --Alberuni 19:16, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Just to quell any remaining doubts: I just checked one of the more authoritative Arabic-English dictionaries, Hans Wehr's, and it gives the meaning of "al-ard al-muqaddasa" quite simply as "the Holy Land, Palestine", without even mentioning the Hijaz. - Mustafaa 22:19, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

really cool page!!! completely correct definition!!!

Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development??

I disagree that the information about "Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development", be put in the "Its meaning in Islam" section.

Any charity organization, terrorist or not, has little to with Islam. Holy Land's definition in Islam is provided by the Quran, Sunnah or Fiqh (Islamic ethics). If one can show that charity/terrorist organization has been mentioned in the Quran, Sunnah, and / or the Fiqh (whether Sunni or Shia), then the organization is eligible to be mentioned in that section.

Anyways, if you want, you make another section in the article by the name of something along the lines of "Institutions related to the Holy Land", and you are welcome to put it there.

I am looking for a response from Humus sapiens, or somebody else who might disagree with me. I will proceed to remove it if I don't get any.

Bless sins 22:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not a scholar of Islam, but AFAIK it is much more that what "has been mentioned in the Quran, Sunnah, and / or the Fiqh". For example, Islam claims Jerusalem. Could you show that it "has been mentioned in the Quran, Sunnah, and / or the Fiqh"? Also, charity is one of the 5 pillars of Islam, correct?

Closer to the subject, instead of adding a very short (it seems) new section, could you add a sourced text that such efforts did not gain a wide support in the Muslim world. I feel that it it won't be a problem to find the opposite. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 23:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I, like almost all Muslims, maintain the claim that Islam is that which is in the Quran, Sunnah and Fiqh (whether Sunni or Shia). Something that is made 1,000 + years after Islam, can't be included in the religion.

Anyways, here is the importance of Jerusalem, as mentioned in Quran: "a Journey by night from the Sacred (Mecca) Mosque to the Farthest (al-Aqsa) Mosque, whose precincts We did bless" (17:1) for more inforamtions visit [9] Charity is also mentioned in the Quran more than ten times. It also has importance in islamic Law.

Back to the topic. If you don't want to add a section, why not just mention it in the introduction. After all, the Crusades (which probably have little to do with the religion Jesus taught) are also mentioned. Mentioning that orgnaization could also outline further the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

If efforts did not gain wide support in the Muslim world , it will be quite difficult to find a source. Also if somethng gains support in the Muslim world, it doesn't become part of Islam. For example, the Crusades gained a HUGE importance in the Christian world (at their time). That doesn't make it a part of Christian faith. Bless sins 11:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Also the title of the section is "Its meaning in Islam". Is this organization a sort of a literary one, which provides definitions of Islamic terms? What does this organization ahve to do with how Muslims define the Holy Land? Before this organization existed, did Muslims not define the Holy Land by the Quran, Sunnah and scholars???? Bless sins 12:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

And while we are on it, why not add sections explaining what the Holy Land means to Jews and Christians. in fact both have different definitions. While Jews are more concerned with David, and Solomon and other kingdoms, Christians are more conerned with Bethlehem, Nazareth, and Jerusalem. Muslims on the other hand have their own holy places. I think this article should also specify the holy sites (in the holyt land) which are claimed by Muslims and Jews. What do you think? Bless sins 12:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The mention in the intro looks OK to me. Could you explain regarding Jerusalem: Muhammed died in 632. There was not a single mosque in Jerusalem at the time because the Muslims under Caliph Umar conquered it only in 638. Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock mosque in 687-691, and The Ummayads build the al-Aqsa in 715. What is mentioned in Muslim scriptures is only "Farthest (al-Aqsa) Mosque". From the webpage you recommended I could only conclude that it could possibly be Jerusalem - as well as any other place on earth. It is still not clear to me where the importance of Jerusalem comes from. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 11:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

On the second look, that charity doesn't belong there, especially in the intro. We have disambig pages for cases just like that. I am creating one and moving it there. Objections? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 04:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Nope. Putting it on another page is an excellent idea. While your at it, can you also post, on my talk page, how to create a disambig statement.

Secondly, about your question. Mosque is not a building, as the site posted clearly outlined. Muslims believe that any place on earth is a mosque. In fact, most muslims in western countries don't even pray in a 'mosque'. We make do with praying in a storage room, or some classroom, or even outside (weather permitting).

However, why is Al-Aqsa mosque referring to Jerusalem? This is clarified in hadith (a saying of the Prophet Muhammad). I am sure you will agree (as a muslim or non-muslim) that the the Prophet knew the Quran better than you and I. Go to the link [[10]] and check the Hadith #2. Also if you read the Quran, you will find that in verse 17:7, a calrification of Masjid-al-Aqsa is given. "So when the second promise came (We raised another people) that they may bring you (Children of Israel) to grief and that they may enter the mosque as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy whatever they gained ascendancy over with utter destruction. "

This is referring to the destruction of a great place of worship of the Israelites. This must be the Temple of Solomon. Bless sins 00:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

OR?

The term is sometimes used when a speaker wishes to use neither "Israel" nor "Palestine" for the region, since either term can be considered as giving a specific religious group (Jews and Muslims, respectively) the right of ownership. - This seems to be WP:OR. It could be [mis]understood in the sense that when someone uses this term, s/he makes a statement. BTW, is this "ownership" related to real estate, or is it religious or political? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 04:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Although I dont know the intentions of the author who put this there, I don't think it is OR. Many people (esp. Christians), who wish to take a neutral stance, refer to this geographic location as "Holy Land". One such example would be Desmond Tutu (a Christian)'s article "Apartheid in the Holy Land". The Jews call this Land Eretz Israel. Under Jewish occupation and political control, this land has been called "Israel". This was changed from the name "Palestine", called by its occupiers for two millenia. Obviously the name "Israel" signifies Jewish occupation, something unacceptable to the "Palestinians". This is fact.

Similarly, the word "Palestine" comes form the "Philistines". To the Jews these people are foreign invaders, people to whom this land wan't "promised". The name Palestine was coined by Romans who siezed control of this land. These are also facts.

This term is an alternative to the words "Israel" and "Palestine". It's used by those who wish to not side with either gorups.

As for ownership, I don't know if that OR, or not.

objections to the jewish section

I have some objections: First of all, the article describes a lot of historical and little religious significance. For example, whereas Humus Sapiens asked me to back the holiness of the land in Islam with Quran, there is not a single verse from the TOrah or the Talmud, or any other scripture that Jews hold holy.

Secondly, by mentioning "archeological evidence", is the author trying to prove something???

Thirdly, once again, what does the expulsion of Jews, changing the name of the land have to do with this?? Unless, there is clear link made from it to a specific tenet of Judaism, it should not be there.

I like the last two lines. I think more should be mentioned about Jerusalem, Hebron, the wailing wall, the miracle of Hanukkah, etc..

I don't see the basis for the "objections" above, let's see what others say. There are some Torah and Tanakh quotes in the article Religious significance of Jerusalem#Jerusalem in Torah and Tanakh. Also, I disagree with alphabetical sectioning. It is against chronological order and seems illogical. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 12:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed with Humus sapiens. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 17:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Alphabetical sectioning really doesn't matter. If you really dislike, then change it; I just thought it might be a good idea. As for the Talmud and Tanakh quotes, let's add them in this article. It would show the significance of the Land in Judaism.

Also, if any of you know of any verses in the New Testament that show how the and why the Holy Land is considered sacred by Christians, then please post them. Bless sins 17:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I see that you reverted the edits. I still think that my objections are valid. Up until the point you added the Jewish section (I have no objection to that), the article focused on the definition of the Holy Land. If you remember, the Islam section was actually labeled "Its meaning in Islam". Most of the argument on the talk page is also regarding what exactly is the term "Holy Land".

The theme of this article seems to be confusing. In the Islam section, there are Quranic verses and Arabic terms, and references from medieval scholars not on why the land is Holy in Islam, but on the term "Holy Land".

The theme of the Jewish section is more committed the history of Jews in the Land, the evidence to prove that, and Roman propoganda. In sharp contrast from the Islamic section, there is no verse from scriptures, no mention of a scholar and no mention of any unique Hebrew term for this land.

I think I'll probably change the Islamic section, so that it talks more about why the land is holy in Islam, and the history of Muslims in this land. Bless sins 02:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The Judaism section shows (or provides further references to) the significance of the Holy Land in Judaism, and explains the ties between the Jewish people and the Holy Land throughout the Jewish history. Of course the question: "if it is so holy to Jews, then why many of them live someplace else?" is legitimate, therefore we need to address it. Remember to assume good faith. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 02:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I never asked the question of Jews living outside the Holy Land, I'm sorry if that's how you interpreted my comments. I'll assume good faith, provided that the Jewish section doesn't get too agressive, esp. when someone tries to "prove" a religious perspective.

172.166.214.81 19:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

It is wrong to take this as a some kind of competition. Our job here should not be to check that "the Jewish section doesn't get too agressive" but to present encyclopedic facts. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 01:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

We are both responsible for keeping each other's edits in check. 172.153.241.5 02:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

POV

This is POV. There are many people/beliefs who have a holy land. Jeroenvrp 15:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to declare this article POV. It's 100% jewish-christian-islamic-centric to claim the title "Holy Land". Jeroenvrp 18:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

this is just bickering, this is not rational, again if no rational is given the tag will have to be removed--T-rex 02:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It's 100% rational. You're acussing of me being bickering, that's not rational. Holy lands exists all around the globe, that's a fact. So the article should also mention other religions and start with a general introduction (see Dutch interwiki link) - Jeroenvrp 10:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I just looked at the dutch page, and it isn't as good as this one actually. and you still havn't given a reason why this is POV --T-rex 18:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Article and its comments moved

I placed Johnny Cash's album the holy land (album) on the disambig. page and I've moved the Holy Land article here redirecting the original article here, for greater clarity, if no one objects. Robocracy 00:20, 21 July 2006 (UTC)