|WikiProject Body Modification||(Rated Start-class, Low-importance)|
The content of this article is problematic - it is largely incorrect.
- The advertisement is for corsets for girls (as evidenced by the range of ages listed under the illustration), in which the shoulder straps are to keep the corset positioned correctly, and possibly to ensure 'corect' posture (that is, with back straight and shoulders square).
- I can guess at the purpose of the corset in the other illustration: shoulder straps were sometimes added to corsets for women with larger busts, to achieve better shape and support. I do know that the long cross-over shoulder straps would have a negligible effect on the size and shape of the waist - the waist shape was given by the corset's rigid boning.
The tighting of the waist is, simple because muscles which been pressured and make passive disappear after a year.
Muscles have very little to do with tightlacing - the weakening and wasting (although not "disappearance") of muscles is a secondary effect of wearing a corset. The diminishing size of the waist chiefly requires the lower ribs (particularly the lowest two, which are known as 'floating ribs') to be squeezed closer together
The problem is the ribs which slope down and must raised up.
Ribs do not slope downwards, and there is no need to raise them up in tightlacing. This is a nonsense statement.
Added to these gross inaccuracies, the article is poorly written. I am going to make some changes to improve all this! Katherine Shaw 11:43, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
I have some problems with Haabet's latest additions - the statements go against my common sense and my knowledge. However, I am not an expert (particularly when it comes to anatomy) and I would not mind being proved wrong.
'"...as if a long corset is used as one's first corset, the ribs are depressed futher, which has negative effects upon the body."
The length of the corset has very little to do with depressing the ribs - it is the circumference that conpresses the ribs. A short corset - i.e., a waist cincher - avoids compressing the ribs, but only by virtue of not touching them.
"The training corset raises the ribs by use of a shoulder brace, which elongates the waist and expands the lung area."'
If there is a source to support these statements, give it to me and I'll shut up!
I have never encountered the shoulder brace, or shoulder straps, used to elongate the waist. They might encourage correct posture, which would visually make the waist appear longer. Correct posture would also ease the wearer's breathing, which would be severely constricted by wearing a tight corset - but nothing could expand the lung area!
Apart from this, shoulder straps could not raise the ribs. It just is not possible. Sources may claim that they can, but they cannot. Think about it: a corset gets its shape from the boning. Once a body is laced into a corset, it's a pretty solid thing, and it would take some very strong forces to change the shape given by the boning. The force of fabric straps passing around the waist and over the shoulders would not be strong enough. The only thing that could move the ribs upwards would be a corset with boning that put pressure on the ribs from underneath.
"Use of a training corset may result in shoulder problems, because the shoulders have no direct connection to the spine and naturally follow the ribs' alignment, although a good shoulder brace may reduce this problem."
I would like to see a source for this too. I cannot find any references to training corsets - either contemporary or historical - having shoulder straps for these reasons; the reasons for corsets having shoulder straps or incorporating a back brace are support and posture, not rectifying problems caused by tightlacing.
There is a lot of misinformation about corsets around, most of it stemming from historical myths and BDSM corset fetish fatasies. The WIkipedia should avoid perpetuating these at all costs - which is why I want sources!
--- Katherine Shaw 14:27, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)
- I do have a source for the historical use of training corsets, but it isn't a written source. She's a vintage clothes dealer in Iowa. In conversations with her she's mentioned that in the 1800s girls often wore corsets from a very young age in order to develop the fashionable but unnaturally small waist. She says that these corsets would prevent the lowest pair of ribs, called floating ribs, from developing properly.
--Kerowyn 06:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The number of floating ribs is four or two pair. To change the floating ribs correctly you have need of places to they.
All the ribs have need to go up, as the chest been bigger as it have space to liver and stomach. The chest can go up without the floating ribs, as they are in the slim waistline.
13:48, August 3, 2005 (UTC)13:48, August 3, 2005 (UTC)13:48, August 3, 2005 (UTC)~~
- A corset wouldn't expand someone's chest cavity; if anything it would constrict the chest. A corset restricts growth when it is used continuously during childhood an adolsecents. The bones and tissue don't have to go anywhere, they simply fail to develop properly.
- It is a myth. Corset was not tight before the puberty. Many collections of skeleton have some "tightlacer" but they are deformed after the dead. Haabet 13:46, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
OK, I'll admit that I was wrong: some of the ribs are sloping. However, once the reference to raising the ribs up is removed, the pitrue is irrelevant - so I'm taking it out.
--- Katherine Shaw 14:27, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)
old meaning and new meaning
The problem is "Training corset" and "Tightlacing" in olddays stop when the girl had the fashionable waist, after just few months and "Training corset" and "Tightlacing" today continue in years. The old meaning and the new meaning is incompatible. Haabet 17:09, 2005 Apr 27 (UTC)
major edits - documentation
I considered removing the following because it makes absolutely no sense. Corsets with straps pull down on the shoulders, and don't dig in under the ribs. Even if they did somehow get fitted to push up on the bottom ribs, it would contract the lung area, not expand it. (there is nothing for them to attach to to provide upward force on the shoulders). I left it in because it is the majority of the content in the section about using a training corset to prepare for a regular corset. I would also like to note that a cursory search did not find any reference at all on the web to such a practice.
- The training corset raises the ribs by use of a shoulder brace, which elongates the waist and expands the lung area. Use of a training corset may result in shoulder problems because the shoulders have no direct connection to the spine and naturally follow the ribs' alignment, although a good shoulder brace may reduce this problem.
I also removed this string of "features" of a discipline corset because they are not even sentences.
- Generally tailored to individual measurements for comfort, ease of tight lacing and health. Fully lined with firm Poly/Cotton twill for extra strength and comfort - this variety of twill is thin, yet very strong, durable and colorfast. All major corset panels are quadruple stitched with polyester thread for extra strength and structural integrity. To prevent skin chafing, thin and strong twill tape can be fused on the interior of the corset waist instead of being exposed on the outside of the corset. Can include a strong steel busk closure for easy wearing and removal of corset. Firm underbusk to prevent painful and unhealthy excavation of upper abdominal cavity. Flattens lower abdomen and promotes proper posture. Flat steel boning allows firm control with ease of movement. Stays can be mounted on the exterior or interior of the corset. Extra-firm rear steels support back. Promotes proper posture while preventing undue pressure on vertebrae and kidneys. The back is fully laced with strong, flat nylon laces for smooth, easy pulling. A Lacing Protector may be used to protect the back from rear laces.
Dreamingkat 03:48, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Changes in Chest Cavity Size
I've been looking for information about changes in chest cavity size due to any cause with little success. The best I've found is that during pregnancy, hormone changes cause the ligaments holding the ribs in place to loosen so that the lungs total capacity doesn't shrink very much. (It shrinks because pregnancy forces organs usually in the abdominal cavity into the chest cavity to make room for the baby.) I'm going to keep looking, but I continue to have serious doubts about the idea that any sort of clothing can expand the thoracic cavity. I do believe that the result of wearing a corset - even one that doesn't move the ribs - is that one's lung capacity decreases due to the other organs moving the diaphragm upwards. If no one can find a source in the next few days, I'm going to remove the assertion that historical training corsets did expand the thoracic cavity. Dreamingkat 16:27, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
- The stiffness of cartilage been create of microscopic thread and this threads are not sensitive of hormone changes, because they are dead tissue like wood. It is a absurd theory as dead tissue can been changed of hormone. The geometry of the chest by the pregnancy is as the lung been short and broad and this shape is relatively effective for the lungs, because the been effective drain for air in every breath. And the breaths in the chest is quicker as in abdomen. If the woman been breathless she break some of the microscopic thread in cartilage, by the heavy breaths, and the soften cartilage give quicker breaths.
- Normally the survived thread grow after the pregnancy. (grow on the outside) But sometimes all microscopic thread is broke and the cartilage of the chest have losed the stiffness, and the woman been a hysterical hypochondriacal cow, because the respiration been to big if abdomen and chest collaboration and the respiration stop if abdomen and chest oppose. I have a theory as Many more woman than man get mental illness because woman have sleep problems, because the respiration stop in some stage in the sleeping.
- Lung Expander GB Chest Expanders Haabet 18:01, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to assume that there is a bit of a language barrier here, since the ribs are bone (which is live tissue), and I was referencing ligaments (which are what connect muscles to bone - also live tissue). I agree that breathing rate (number of breaths per minute) increases during pregnancy - that is to help offset the decrease in lung volume due to the diaphragm moving upwards. I'm not really sure what to make of the rest of your response, as I can't understand it.
- Do you have an alternative source (something other than your own website) to back the claim that you can permanently increase the size of the thoracic (chest) cavity? A list of patents isn't useful when discussing anatomy. People can (and do) patent all sorts of things that don't - and can't - work.
- Or are you trying to say that putting shoulder straps on a corset forces proper posture, which makes breathing easier? That I can readily agree to.
- Dreamingkat 03:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Good was soo intelligent as then he created Eva, he do as she be able to breath, during the pregnancy; or alternative the devil 'Darvin Evolution' choke all pregnancy by por breath. ;-)
'sene' is Danish for 'ligament which are what connect muscles to bone' and 'sener' is Danish for 'ligaments which are what connect muscles to bone' English is very difficult.
If the 'sener' been soften the musculature do not work.
'ligament' in Danish is two zones (in the front of the hip) which been soften before the delivery.
By the pregnancy the breathing been improved by several ways:
- The proper posture. What is full reversible.
- Stronger muscles in the chest. What is not reversible, but if she not use they, they do nothing.
Yes I know as muscles disappear if you do not use they, but the muscles of breathing are a exception.
- Lift of chest. What is full reversible.
- Soften of cartilage. What is normally full reversible, but some time not reversible.
- more ....
The doctor on http://www.staylace.com/ tell about secondary grow of cartilage in the chest.
Cultivation of the Chest, Edmund Shaftesbury 1895
All ex-sport women have extend lungs. Except: Shooters and yachtswomen.
Haabet 17:48, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Have Traning Corset of today any ting to do by 'Traning Corset in the past?
Haabet 19:21, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
YES. The purpose of both of them was to make changes in the shape of the body that last even when the corset is removed. That's also why we have orthopedic corsets listed here. Just because they don't look the same, doesn't mean that they don't have the same the purpose. Dreamingkat 00:40, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
- Training corset is name Bondage Corsets and Discipline Corset on waspcreations because you train discipline in the Bondage Corsets. It is a problem if the bondage corset if is very uncomfortably and you fall asleep after the sex. A Bondage Corsets is to adult and to two hours use.
- Training corset or Redresseur Corset or Posture corset was name of a 12-13 years girl's corset, because she train her figure and posture. This training corset was wery comfortably and she use it constant.
Orthopedic corsets is never named Training corset
It is a sexual dream when you mix the Bondage Corset by 12-13 years girls.
Haabet 08:16, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
-- I personally don't know anything about orthopedic corsets. I will defer to the person who included them here. However, I don't think you are in a strong position to say what terms are commonly used in English, as I have yet to see a single grammatically correct sentence from you.
-- We have separate sections in the article for orthopedic corsets, what you are calling bondage corsets, and the training corsets you created the page to talk about. There is not enough information at this time on any of them to need a disambiguation page. A fluent speaker of the language will be able to determine that the sections are for different items that are frequently referred to by the same term.
-- I know you created the page, but you have to accept that the nature of wikipedia will result in others changing it. Since you have posted links that imply that you created the page to inform people about your own products, insisting that the page only discuss things relevant to your products would be turning wikipedia into a soapbox.
-- I am going to put back the section on tightlacing corsets. The tightlacing article does not have information about the corsets themselves - it refers people to this article. Therefore, this article needs to have that information.
Dreamingkat 14:58, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
-- I am unfamiliar with the type of training corset in the disputed area. As a maker of tightlacing corsets, I am familiar with the tightlacing useages of "training corset". I am somewhat familiar with historical corset types. Is the disputed "training corset" something that was used in the era of S-curve corsets? The standard Elizabethan and Victorian corsets have absolutely no need of a starter corset prior to wearing a "full" corset, though waist training can certainly be useful for wearing a more reducing Victorian corset, and thus a short training corset can be useful. Since the Edwardian S-curve corset does not generally support the natural alignment of the spine and forces a less natural shape and posture, I can see needing a training corset that perhaps moved the ribs upward, etc. I am just guessing here, as I do not make and have not really studied the Edwardian S-Curve corset other than to realize I am not interested in making this style.
Since I know that there were numerous times in history in which the corset was a normal everyday femenine undergarment, but during which there was no need for a "training corset" before wearing a "full" corset and during which prepubescent girls often wore a corset of identical style to an adult corset, I have changed the phrasing of the last sentence of the introduction such that it does not seem to state that such a thing was worn during all the time that a corset was an everyday feminine undergarment.
Today is "(waist) training corset" a start Hourglass corset.
- REDIRECT Hourglass corset?
The standard of Elizabethan and Victorian corsets do not exist these eras. Many corsets was in use by the same time. The S-curve was normally two bustles, one on the chest and one on behind.
But typically have the girls corsets by shoulder-straps because corset and dress press on the hip.
these image are from 1859 and 1850 in Victorian era
And she is from 1911
Haabet 00:27, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
This page has undergone quite a bit of work in recent days. Is it safe to say it is clean? Vote here.
Haabet 00:39, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Wouldn't people have to vote on a VfR of the hourglass? otherwise, definately redirect that to here. You do what you think is right, i'll back you. lol! — HopeSeekr of xMule (Talk) 01:21, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
- Clean — I have tried to edit this article to conform to wikipedia standards. I do not think this article should be merged or redirected. The additional corset articles simply need to be expanded by an expert. -- Reinyday, 9 August 2005
- Clean Go ahead and merge hourglass corset and training corset. The hourglass corset seems to be the main article and training corset is a subset desrcibing the uses of a hourglass corset. --Kerowyn 03:20, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
- Clean I don't think it should be merged - the hourglass corset can easily be it's own article. Dreamingkat 03:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
- No, (waist) training corset should not be redirected to Hourglass Corset.
- No, I don't think this page is yet cleaned up enough.
- Haabet, I am quite aware of the shape of a Victorian corset. If you read what I said, I said I was certain a Victorian corset did not need a "training corset" such as you described. I was asking if it was for an s-curve corset, which you seem to say it is not. Can you please tell us what style of "regular corset" for "everyday use" the preperatory training corset is supposed to be training for? Additionally, you really should find someone with a grasp of the English language to help you translate what you are trying to say into English, as this is for the English-language wikipedia. Or post your ideas of this in your native language. While I am not trying to be discriminatory or keep you from contributing, the things that you say do not make sense, and it is difficult for us to clarify what you are trying to say due to your grammar and improper word useage.