Talk:Triple Crown (professional wrestling)/Archive 6

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NWA World title prior to 11th January 1991
(or whatever point you recognise the split with the WCW World title)

Since there isn't a source for WWE's , WCW's in its lifetime or anyone else's recognition of what constituted the WCW triple crown, shouldn't the pre Jan 11th 1991 NWA World title be considered as counting towards the WCW Triple Crown? In which case Dusty Rhodes (World title 1979, Tag title 1984, US title 1987) and Rick Steamboat (World title 1989, Tag and US title going back to the late 70s) should be added to the table and Ric Flair should be considered to have achieved the triple crown in 1981 with his very first world title victory? 2.26.165.82 (talk) 18:36, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

There is a source? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:38, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

There's nothing that formally lays down any rules. Only casual references by WWE to World, Tag and US title. Clearly however the NWA World title was WCW/JCP's primary title prior to January 11 1991 and there are plenty of commentaries on WCW shows to show that WCW circa 1991-1992 presented its title as the straight and rightful continuation of the NWA title up to that point - also that Pro Wrestling Illustrated regarded the WCW title as the rightful continuation of the NWA title history (eg Editorial, Wrestling '91, Spring 1991 edition or "Who Needs The Confusion? Why Reviving The NWA Title Was A Bad Idea." Inside Wrestling December 1992 edition, pages 38-41). Wikipedia does not recognise the concept of the "NWA/WCW World title" but since the World title in WCW was NWA up to January 11, 1991 and WCW from that day after, either of those titles within the time period specified should count towards the triple crown. So to summarise, no there are no sources about the NWA title being part of any "Triple Crown" but there are sources about the WCW title being one particular continuation of the NWA title prior to 1991-01-11 (and it is WP:SKYBLUE that up until that point the NWA title was the primary title of WCW/JCP and had been since the mid 80s. )(95.148.201.17 (talk) 07:33, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Also there *was* a source - the above mentioned Wrestling '91 Editorial quoted to support that the WCW title and the NWA title pre 91-01-11 were one and the same. 95.148.201.17 (talk) 07:47, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

And another thing - the quoted source of The 50 greatest stars in WCW history on wwe.com contains the following statement about #2 ranked Ric Flair "Already a sports-entertainment icon by the time Ted Turner launched WCW, Ric Flair continued along his path of success in the Atlanta-based promotion. Legendary rivalries with the likes of Sting, Ricky Steamboat and Lex Luger defined The Nature Boy’s reputation as one of the country’s best competitors and his seven reigns as WCW Champion gave him further ammunition for his freewheeling interviews." (Paragraph break) "Although Flair left WCW in favor of WWE in ’91, he returned home in 1993 ..." The only identifiable group of seven WCW world title reigns in Ric Flair's career are the six NWA reigns plus one WCW/NWA reign that Flair clocked up 1981-1991 (not taking into account losses to Harley Race in March 1984, Carols Colon/Victor Jovica circa 1983 and Tatsumi Fujinami in March 1991) - Therefore one of the two sources being quoted for the existence of a WCW Triple Crown also endorses the view of the WCW title being a continuation of the NWA title prior to 91-01-11! 95.148.201.17 (talk) 08:04, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

This is WP:OR. You need a source claiming WCW recognized NWA reigns as part of the triple crown. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:44, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

One of the two given sources for there even being a WCW triple crown regards the NWA title pre 91-01-11 as being the same thing as the WCW title.95.148.201.17 (talk) 00:01, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

I 100% agree with the NWA title being a part of the WCW Triple Crown, but after the WCW World Heavyweight Championship was introduced, it should be treated like WWE, as in between 1991-1993, there were two world titles, and you could win either one to count towards the Triple Crown. So while Dusty and Steamboat are Triple Crown Champions, Barry Windham would be one as well, as he won the NWA title shortly before NWA and WCW ended their partnership. Drummoe (talk) 04:14, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Do you know what OR is? This is not "agree to include a title". You need a source claiming the nwa title reigns count as part of WCW, no matter if the NWA title was the top title at the time. Its SYNTH and OR. Even if the title origin is rooted in the NWA, still unsourced. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:01, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Agree with HHH Pedrigree, it's all WP:OR and WP:SYNTH unless we get a source that explicitly says NWA counted towards the Triple Crown.LM2000 (talk) 13:21, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

I've just pointed out that one of the sources for the very existence of the WCW triple crown also regards the NWA title that Flair held seven times '81-'91 as part of the WCW World title!

No. The article says he won the WCW title 7 times, in general. It doesn't say he won 7 titles before leaving WCW for WWF in 91. It's like "The Rock is one of the best wrestlers in WWE, with 8 WWE Title reigns... after a hiatus from pro wrestling, Rock returned to WWE in 2011" It doesn't mean his 8th title took place before 2011. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:02, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

And another possible source - pretty much the entire WWE "History Of The World Heavyweight Championship" DVD boxset which is basically one big long case that the NWA title pre-91-01-11 (and as traditionally traced all the way back to Hackenschmidt in 1905), the WCW title and the WWE World title created in 2002 are all one and the same title (in the same way as how how the JCP/WCW US title 1975-2001 and the WWE US title are one and the same.)95.148.201.17 (talk) 09:38, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Again, OR and SYNTH. No matter if it's the same title belt or is the previous title, sources says only the WCW World Title is valid, not the previous NWA reigns. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:02, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

It says the WCW World title was valid and then goes on to say that the title Ric Flair held in the 80s was the WCW title! 62.190.148.115 (talk) 11:53, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Compromise suggstion

Just have the WCW World Heavyweight Championship, but put in brackets under WCW World Heavyweight championship column header: "(including NWA World Heavyweight championship up to January 11, 1991)". Then re-add rows for Rhodes and Steamboat and put Flair & Sting's first WCW title wins as Sept '81 and July '90 respectively. This is supported by how one of the two sources for the WCW Triple Crown also considers the NWA title that Ric Flair held "seven times" circa the 1980s to be the same thing as the WCW title.62.190.148.115 (talk) 11:53, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

No. OR. Again, the title is the WCW, which started in 1991 and Rhodes and Steamboat didn't win it. The source doesn't say Flair held the WCW in the 80 7 times, says he held the title 7 times overall. Again, find a source claiming the NWA title counts, no compromises. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:12, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Rob Van Dam ECW triple crown champion

Going back and looking at the last few edits, RVD has been taken off and put back on quite a bit because of his ECW world title reign being under the WWE banner so could we please discuss whether he belongs or not so we don't have disputes. Thanks. Browndog91 11:34, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Is someone going to add the WWE Women section?

Seeing is how Bayley is officially recognized as the first official Triple Crown winner, is anyone going to make that subsection? W--Geekboy6 (talk) 15:08, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

@Geekboy6: She is not officially recognized. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 17:18, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes she is. If it's on WWE.com, then it's official. When a WWE announcer makes a statement about a WWE accomplishment on a WWE produced video on the WWE website, it's as official as it gets. This isn't third party or a guy in his underwear doing a blog, this is straight from the company's website. Doesn't get better than that. Vjmlhds (talk) 19:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Wait and see if it actually gets acknowledged on TV. The same thing happened with Charlotte a couple years ago, she said on a WWE.com interview the 2017 Survivor Series pre-show that she was a Grand Slam Champion for having won Diva, NXT, Raw and SmackDown but that was the only mention ever. Things happen on the WWE.com exclusives all the time without them translating into actuality in the WWE universe. Same thing when they they announced the first Women's Royal Rumble they had a ton of WWE.com exclusives about women saying they were in the match, we did not include them on here as consensus was that was not sufficient, and then following that the next week on TV they said no one had yet been declared. The WWE.com interviews have a history of not being accurate in the WWE story universe. Based on these examples its very clear why these WWE.com exclusive videos fail the criteria in WP:VIDEOREF. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 19:59, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Actually speaking of Charlotte, explain why this doesn't count [1]? Shouldn't we have had one there for years based solely on these WWE.com videos? - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 20:11, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

She's recognized now according to WWE's Instagram [2] Looks like since Women don't have a midcard title currently, Triple Crown for them is Tag, Raw and Smackdown Women's titles. Mymartianromance (talk) 21:54, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Well, looks like an official statement. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:47, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Bayley should be put on this because nobody mentioned that Johnny Gargano was a triple crown champion, you just know. They established in order to be a Triple Crown Champion on Multiple Social Medias that for Women you need Raw Smackdown and Tag Titles. PooshORNoPooshThatsTheQuestion (talk) 22:25, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Mauro Ranallo just mentioned after Johnny Gargano’s win that he’s the first NXT Triple Crown winner. That section is already in.--Geekboy6 (talk) 13:07, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and we have WP:SECONDARY that support this [3]. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 13:20, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I asked the same when Charlotte won the SD title and called herself triple crown. Answer, no until WWE recognized her as triple crown champion. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Sources

Several of the entries on the page had very flimsy citations. A random journalist referring to a triple crown is meaningless. Triple Crowns should only be added to the article where there is unambiguous evidence showing that the accolade is recognised by the promotion. This is not the place for fan fiction. McPhail (talk) 20:15, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Why is John Cena not on the list?

John Cena has been a WWE champion, a tag team champion as well as a US champion. Are only intercontinental champions counted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.164.189 (talk) 17:56, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Correct WWE only acknowledges IC not US for this purpose. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 18:06, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Because Cena has yet to win the IC title as he already won both the WWE & World Heavyweight Championships (Primary championship) and the WWE & World Tag Team Championships. He's also yet to complete the Grand Slam under the current format as he already won the US title at WrestleMania XX 16 years ago. Carl DR 1995 (talk) 13:33, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Hotbody

Well, I have another question. I gave McPhail several sources and he agrees the ECW Triple Crown is now soruces. However... PWInsider calls Whipwreck the first ECW triple crown, which is strange, since Hotbody and Sabu won the title before. My 2 cents, maybe ECW title didn't count before Shane Douglas issue. If that's the case, Mickey won the title before Sabu, with Whipwreck being the first and Sabu, the second. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:19, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

In fact, I found nothing about Hotbody as a ECW Triple Crown champion. [4] --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:30, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Is Adam Cole a former Tag Team Champ?

For months we did not recognize Adam Cole as such. What changed our mind now? Mauro calling him a Triple Crown Champ?WrestlingLegendAS (talk) 17:13, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

We do list him as a champion. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 12:16, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

I know, hence my question what changed our mind.WrestlingLegendAS (talk) 16:05, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Nothing chan ged our mind, WWE changed his. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Johnny Hotbody (ECW)

Why was Johnny Hotbody removed? The RVD thing is understandable because there’s no clear consensus on if WWECW counts, but Hotbody won all three belts in the original ECW, and has been listed for years. Why was he suddenly removed?

Also, I believe that even though RVD (ECW) and Big Show (WCW) shouldn’t be listed, it should be noted that both won the respective titles needed for triple crowns, but after the companies closed and WWE continued using certain championships. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.171.30 (talk) 18:58, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I removed since... there is no source. Several websites cited Whipwreck as the first ECW Triple Crown champion. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:43, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Revival Triple Crown Tag Team Champions

Just stumbled on to this at WWE Shop, where the Revival are recognized as Triple Crown Tag Team Champions (Raw, SD, NXT).

Was wondering if this is good enough for it to be added to the article before we do all kinds of changes.

Vjmlhds (talk) 21:39, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Mmmm, I would prefer a better source, instead merchandaising. It's strage, I made a quick research and I found no mention of Triple Crown Tag Team Championship n the reliable sources. Even isn't mentioned in WWE.com --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 00:19, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

For what it's worth, EVERYTHING WWE (or any wrestling company) does can be tied into merchandise (everybody is in business to make a buck). If WWE wants you to spend a hundred bucks and change to buy a plaque honoring their achievement, it's gotta mean something - no? Vjmlhds (talk) 19:26, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I know, but is strange that the Triple Crown only appears in merchandise. No mention in the programming, no notes on the website... --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:47, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Emily.lemk Added a section that was removed due to the source being unreliable, so if the WWE do ever declare it legitimate, we can just add it back. I do agree with User:Drummoe upon further consideration, because the rules of the Triple Crown haven't been established. Are Jason Jordan and Chad Gable not considered, since they have one all three? or does it apply exclusively to tag teams Emily.lemk (talk) 10:15, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

I am a bit late to this discussion, sorry. January into February is my busiest time at work and my kids school vacation is in January not December, so I was busy with that.

Anyway to the topic at hand, its interesting that it is the only place it appears. When discussing Bayley's Grand Slam at Grand_Slam_(professional_wrestling)#Bayley_-_Women's_Grand_Slam Vjmlhds brought up a WWE Shop item in that case as well and it seems to end that discussion (pinging JDC808 who was involved there but stated they did not follow these pages as they may want to chime in also.

According to WP:PW/RS 411Mania has limited reliability, and states "Stay away from news articles that are crediting sources we consider unreliable." They call them the first triple crown [5]. BR is listed as being used for "minor claims" which is open to interpretation, but they also referred to them as the first [6].

In my opinion, if you just had 411Mania and BR, than the answer would be no. When you include those two PLUS the WWE Shop, I think it is enough to say we include it. Additionally since they are considered the first it means its only as a tag team, not individual like Jordan or Gable. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 13:00, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Ring of Honor

If ROH counts any combination of TV, Tag and Pure shouldn't they all be listed as "Secondary" titles? As the table stands it would look as if someone that had won the World, TV and Pure (does anyone like that exist?) they wouldn't qualify. 2A00:23C6:760A:7F01:71F9:DFD0:1F62:5DC (talk) 16:33, 24 May 2020 (UTC)