Talk:UEFA Euro 2012 Group B

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the UEFA Euro 2012 Group B article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Scenario

Please add the scenario for the next matchday quick. I'm an ass in math so I can't do it. BasFey (talk) 21:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Quick"? Why? What's the rush? – Pee Jay 00:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm from the Netherlands and we lost, as you can see, so I quickly wanted to know under which result next Wednesday is lethal for us. BasFey (talk) 10:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, i doubt that Germany advances, if they beat the Netherlands. For example if they loose against Danmark 3:0 und Portugal beats the Netherlands we have a three-way tie for the first place with Germany the team with the worst goal difference of all the three teams. Am I wrong? 91.57.18.165 (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Original research

Next match day scenarios are not referenced and are a violation of WP:NOR. Dr. Vicodine (talk) 21:22, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In WP:NOR it is writthen that "Routine calculations do not count as original research" The rules when wich team will advance into the next round are known and not very complicated so I don't see this as OR --89.12.87.150 (talk) 21:34, 10 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, I think the predictions should return. WP:NOR does not disallow these calculations. 84.86.56.119 (talk) 21:12, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agree For both this group right now (and for the group A) it is very routine calculations. With a very open group it ca be speculations, like you can see an very constructed example of on group B's talkpage. A general debate about when and when not to would be very useful. But not to be put here. It would be a very useful debate at WikiProject Football. On that talkpage it would be interesting to have many different editors to contributed to change or make a policy on this subject - a policy needed at most football articles. Jack Bornholm (talk) 18:52, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, doing basic arithmetic and applying pretty simple rules already laid out and referenced in another article doesn't count as original research. WP:NOR is being way overapplied here. - filelake shoe 19:30, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A general discussion about this take place on: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Next match day scenarios. My guess is that the consensus made there would count in all football pages so go there and say your piece. Jack Bornholm (talk) 20:56, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Logo on Netherlands Jersey

The logo has to be removed per copyright policy. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:20, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Scenario after the second round

Most scenarios don't involve a three-way tiebreaker, except two:

6-6-6-0 scenario when Denmark defeat Germany and Portugal defeat the Netherlands.
9-3-3-3 scenario when Germany defeat Denmark and the Netherlands defeat Portugal.
Let's see the first scenario. The three teams Germany, Denmark and Portugal have 3 points among their matches (as we assume Denmark will defeat Germany). The second tiebreaker is the goal difference among their matches. Note that Portugal defeated Denmark by 3:2 while Germany defeated Portugal by 1:0. Portugal has scored 3 goals and conceded 3 goals in these two matches, resulting in a 0 goal difference. Germany and Denmark have a goal difference +1 and -1 from the matches among the three teams before their match respectively. If Denmark defeat Germany by 2 or more goals, Germany will rank third among these teams due to a negative goal difference and is eliminated. If Denmark defeat Germany by 1 goal, three teams will have 0 goal difference among themselves. A victory of Denmark by 1:0 or 2:1 will yield the lowest number of goals for Germany among these three teams. A scoreline 3:2 yields the same goal scored by Germany and Portugal while Germany will advance (with Denmark) because of their head-to-head results. 4:3 or higher yields the lowest number of goals for Portugal among these three teams.
The second scenario is similar. The three teams Denmark and Portugal and the Netherlands have 3 points among their matches (as we assume the Netherlands will defeat Portugal). The second tiebreaker is the goal difference among their matches. Note that Portugal defeated Denmark by 3:2 while Denmark defeated the Netherlands by 1:0. Portugal has scored 3 goals and conceded 3 goals in these two matches, resulting in a 0 goal difference. Portugal and the Netherlands have a goal difference +1 and -1 from the matches among the three teams before their match respectively. If the Netherlands defeat Portugal by 2 or more goals, the Netherlands will rank first among these teams due to a positive goal difference and advance to the quarter-finals. If the Netherlands defeat Portugal by 1 goal, three teams will have 0 goal difference among themselves. A victory of the Netherlands by 2:1 or higher will yield the highest number of goals for Portugal among these three teams. A scoreline 1:0 yields the same goal scored by Portugal and Denmark while Portugal will advance (with Germany) because of their head-to-head results. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ckhandy (talk • contribs) 20:39, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Netherlands would still advance if Denmark lose and Netherlands win 2 goals (2-0, 3-1, 4-2)

If Netherlands win 2 goals, points would be 9-3-3-3, points of 2 to 4th were equal, but among them GD Netherlands would be +1 or more, Denmark already fixed in GD 0 and Portugal -1 or worse.

Denmark cannot lose is PARTIALLY right. If Denmark lose 0-1, and Netherlands just win 1-0, their goal difference among 3 teams is tied, GF of Portugal and Denmark would be tied and GD among the whole group also tied (both -1) and UEFA coefficient Denmark win. Matthew_hk t c 21:08, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the current tie-breakers listed at the UEFA Euro 2012 page are not correct. See this piece of news: [1]; or the regulations (scroll down to the last few pages for the amendment): [2]. I put the amended correct version a while ago: [3], not sure who re-edited it. This means that if the above scenario happens, Portugal and Denmark will be in tied for criteria a-c (Netherlands drops out), so criteria is re-applied, and Portugal advances on head-to-head. Chanheigeorge (talk) 21:33, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Denmark can lose and still get in to the quarter-finals. If they lose to Germany 2-1 and Netherlands wins 1-0, then Denmark advances by goals scored. Netherlands, Portugal and Denmark would all have a 0 goal differential between each other for the first goal differential tie breaker. Netherlands would be eliminated for only having 1 goal scored in total versus Portugal and Denmark, who would both be tied with 3 goals scored. The second goal differential tie breaker is adding Germany into the mix. Portugal lost 1-0 and, under this scenario, Denmark lost 2-1 versus Germany, therefore advancing by goals scored in common games. The catch, is that if Denmark loses they must lose by only 1 goal and they must score 1 goal, while Netherlands must win by exactly 1-0. Crewcamel (talk) 22:31, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Almost, but not quite. Denmark will advance on a 1-0 Netherlands win as long as it loses by only one goal and scores at least once (1-2, but also 2-3, 3-4...). Points in matches among the three would be equal (3). Goal difference in matches among the three would be equal (0). Goals scored in matches among the three would eliminate Netherlands (3,3,1). Goal difference for all matches would be equal between Denmark and Portugal (-1). Denmark would win for goals scored in all matches (4 or more, compared to Portugal's 3). If Denmark does not score at least one goal, I believe that Portugal wins on national team co-efficient, but am not certain; if Denmark has a higher coeffiecient than Portugal, a 0-1 loss is also enough (as long as Netherlands wins 1-0). Rickwodz (talk) 01:36, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is another minor error. If Denmark wins by one goal and scores at least 3 (i.e. not 1-0 or 2-1), Germany is indeed runner-up if Portugal wins by only one goal UNLESS Portugal also outscores Germany in their final matches, in which case Portugal still goes through (for having scored more goals in all matches). If Portugal scores the same number of goals as Germany in their final matches, I believe that Germany wins on national team co-efficient. Rickwodz (talk) 03:12, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The comment above is not true. If Denmark wins by one goal, and Portugal win, then Denmark, Germany and Portugal all have 6 points, and goal difference from the matches involving the three teams of zero. If Denmark scores more than 4 i.e. 4-3, 5-4, etc. then Denmark wins the group and Germany qualifies as number two due to higher number of goals scored in the matches between the three teams (tie-breaking criteria 3.) If Denmark win 3-2, Denmark wins the group with 5 goals scored (in matches between the three teams) while Germany and Portugal both have 3 goals scored. Then, according to tie-breaking criteria 4, criteria 1-3 are applied to the pair Germany and Portugal. Germany defeated Portugal on the first match day, so Germany finishes second. Bogfjellmo (talk) 04:43, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What is criterion 4, and why does it require the application of criteria 1-3 to the remaining pair? Rule 8.07 states that the criteria are to be applied in the given order where two or more teams are equal on points; it says nothing about starting over once the winner of a three-way tie has been determined. If Denmark wins 3-2 it wins the group, but the next step is to compare the goal difference in all matches; Portugal advances if it beats Netherlands by two or more, or if it wins by one goal but scores at least three (giving it the same goal difference but more goals than Germany in all matches). Rickwodz (talk) 05:44, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And Denmark are out if they lose their final game. If Netherlands win 1-0, then Denmark, Portugal and Netherlands all have 3 points and zero goal difference in the matches involving the three teams. In this scenario Portugal will have 3 goals scored (in matches involving the three teams), Denmark 3, and Netherlands 1. So Netherlands finishes last and tie-breaking criteria 1-3 are applied to the pair Denmark and Portugal. Portugal won against Denmark, thus they finish second. Bogfjellmo (talk) 05:14, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the rules say nothing about beginning the criteria from the beginning once a team has been dropped from a three-way tie. The teams are still "equal on points on completion of the group matches", so the remaining teams proceed to the next criterion "in the order given". If Denmark scores at least one goal it would have more goals in all matches than Portugal, and finish second. Rickwodz (talk) 06:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Bogfjellmo above: We all agree that if Denmark loses and Netherlands wins 1-0, Netherlands/Portugal/Denmark all have the same points. Note that for the tie-breaking the actual score of Germany-Denmark has little to no relevance as only games/results between the tied teams are taken into account initially.

Now we start the tie-breaking:
- a) Higher number of points obtained in the matches played between the teams in question --> all have same points, one loss, one win each.
- b) Superior goal difference resulting from the matches played between the teams in question (if more than two teams finish equal on points) --> all have a goal difference of +/- 0 in the games played against each other
- c) Higher number of goals scored in the matches played between the teams in question (if more than two teams finish equal on points); --> Denmark scored 2+1 goal, Portugal scored 3+0 goals and Netherlands scored 0+1 goal in the games played against each other. Netherlands drops out
Now, that the Netherlands are out, we only have 2 teams left, Denmark and Portugal, so the following applies:
- d) If, after having applied criteria a) to c), two teams still have an equal ranking, criteria a) to c) are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the two teams in question to determine the final rankings of the two teams --> This means that we have to start over at a) but only take into account the game between Portugal and Denmark.
- a) Higher number of points obtained in the matches played between the teams in question --> Portugal won against Denmark, so they have more points scored in that game.

This means that PORTUGAL are 2th, DENMARK are 3th and NETHERLANDS are 4th I hope this clears it all up xD Oraovica (talk) 15:09, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:Chanheigeorge posted references for the tie-breaking criteria above. See for instance http://www.uefa.com/uefa/management/newsid=1800152.html Bogfjellmo (talk) 17:31, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for posting the reference; it indeed clears up the discrepancy and I agree with the analysis above. I apologize for using outdated rules, but in my own defense I downloaded them directly from UEFA only last week and there was no mention of any amendments! I am not very impressed. Rickwodz (talk) 20:12, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Consider the scenario where Denmark wins against Germany by 3 - 2, or higher while maintaining the same goal difference (4 - 3, 5 - 4, etc.). What makes me cringe in this scenario is that because of UEFA's tie breaking rules, no matter what the score will be for the other two teams (Portugal and The Netherlands), Denmark and Germany are guaranteed to pass to the quarter finals. This was addressed in a comment above and happens because UEFA's tie-breaking rules take into account results from "head-to-head" plays before overall group results. See here for more details, where UEFA's are compared to FIFA's tie-breaking rules (which also have their own associated problems). --85.243.159.20 (talk) 20:31, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Denmark/Portugal tie after second group matches

The score table lists Denmark at second place and Portugal at third place. However, both teams have the same number of points (3). According to tie-breaking criteria 2 and 3 Portugal should be at second place because they defeated Denmark by 3:2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.212.17.230 (talk) 07:39, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Color-coded table

I added the color-coded table before the standings table (which appears on the main UEFA Euro 2012 page), and it was removed. I put it back, and it should remain since it is necessary to read the standings table below it. Dar5995 (talk) 21:04, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Minus sign vs. other dash

I made an edit to correct the dashes to minus signs in the standings for goal difference, and it was removed twice. This should be put back, because in accordance with Wikipedia's style, "& minus;" (without a space in between the "&" and "minus;") is the correct script for a minus sign. Dar5995 (talk) 21:24, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Common mathematical symbols says:

For a negative sign or subtraction operator, use a minus sign (−, Unicode character U+2212 MINUS SIGN). Input by clicking on it in the insert box beneath the edit window or by typing −.

There was no other dash. The "dashes" you changed in [4] were minus signs: The Unicode character U+2212. You can for example check that by copy-pasting them to the "Characters" field at http://rishida.net/tools/conversion/ and click "View names". The html code − produces exactly the same character. The Unicode character is usually preferred in the wikisource over the less readable −. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:08, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, makes sense, I didn't realize that those were in fact minus signs. Dar5995 (talk) 00:31, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of tone template

I made significant edits to the summary section of this article to make the language more encyclopedic. I also added about six citations to verify the previously uncited material. The tone template should be removed since now the tone is encyclopedic. Dar5995 (talk) 22:41, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Flag icons for coaches

I placed flag icons next to all of the managers' names and this edit has been repeatedly removed. Even though the flag icons of the managers not from the countries which they manage are there, the other flag icons cannot be there. Can someone please break the tie between me and whoever keeps removing this edit? (And this goes for each of the four pages of the group stage of Euro 2012.) Thanks. Dar5995 (talk) 00:30, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need for flags on coaches in charge of their own country, it would be redundant. You might as well add flags to all the players too. Per WP:MOSFLAG, flagicons should not be overused, which is why we only use them to signify foreign coaches. – Pee Jay 00:39, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, look at previous competition articles; we only have flags on foreign coaches in those articles too. – Pee Jay 00:52, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, since the icons were not used for previous tournaments on managers who managed teams of the same country, then your point makes sense. Dar5995 (talk) 01:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Minute numbers (for goals)

Should the minute numbers be spelled out (e.g. twenty-fourth), or written as ordinal numerals (24th), when discussing when the goals were scored in each match in the summary section (there are a bunch of them, probably ten in the whole section)? I would like to know what people before deciding on whether to change them. Dar5995 (talk) 03:02, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Using ordinals is what is usually done. I can't find a policy or guideline to support the use though. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:14, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Numerals are the way to go if the number is 10 or higher. For numbers lower than 10, spell it out (e.g. "first", "second", "third", "ninth"). I'm pretty sure it's all detailed at WP:MOSNUM. – Pee Jay 00:45, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]