Talk:Xavier College/Archive2004-2009

2004

Previous deletion debate

2005

Moved from Xavier College (Melbourne) to Xavier College. An unnecessary addition to the title when the disambig link is included. Harro5 (talk · contribs) 09:18, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Unencyclopediacness

Read "Faith in service"
"where we encourage our students to involve themselves in practical Christianity"
Is this style really appropriate the for type of format Wikipedia is after?

By the Numbers

It would be appreciated if someone could fill in the missing info in the infobox, I had a cursory check but can't find it. Comradeash 16:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

2006

Alumni - to list or not to list

During the VfD debate regarding this article there was a distinct effort placed in listing notable alumni who were not celebrities as a result of playing AFL, simply because there are so many.

It now seems unlikely that this will be able to be consistently maintained given the goals of this project. I don't see any real value in arguing against it, but I do see value in maintaining an alumni list in such a way that a large number of related entities don't conceal other items.

So I'm splitting the list. into sub-categories. --BenM 17:17, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bias, anyone?

Extended content

How about citations? 'The almost always the largest crowd at the Head of the River'? Not likely. Fairly self-flattering. How about some realism and rational information. Typical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.194.13.105 (talk • contribs)

Could someone explain the significance of quotations from Mr Men books by the rowers to inspire their teammates. It must have interesting origins, if it is not true then it has done very well to survive. It was added under the name Suicup on the 28th of April 2006. Barrison 06:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If you read it a little more carefully it says that the cheer squad recites the Mr Men books, not the rowers themselves. Take Mr Happy for example. Normally the cheer leader will read a couple of lines from the book, perhaps ad libbing a bit to make it relevant to the sporting event in question. Then at the end, they will say "Mr Happy is a Xaverian!" to loud cheering. While obviously it is impossible to cite a source for this claim, I can assure you i didn't make it up. Suicup 06:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't have any specific origins.... The idea is to take an otherwise friendly and child-like text and turn it into an inspirational speech for comedic purposes. It isn't something that is terribly important - and is rarely mentioned within the Xavier community. While the 'tradition' has lasted a few years now it would not surprise me if it evaporated. Reading from the bible on the other hand is a way of claiming some sort of superiority over the other schools - we believe in god and you don't. Many cheer squads taunt the St Kevins (the other catholic APS school) as being "fake" catholics because they do not carry bibles to their sporting events. Just like the Mr. Men books, the bible "verses" usually end in something like "and jesus was a Xavierian!" To great cheers from the xavier crowd. The head of the river was mentioned by an Age reporter as "the last bastion of anglophilia left in Australian culture" evidently that writer had never been to an APS school.--138.217.41.85 12:36, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks didn't express myself well, fair enough Barrison 02:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This page reads like spam —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cwcbi (talk • contribs) 10:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's understandable, 'Mr. Men' books are the only texts that Xaverians are able to read and comprehend. 203.214.105.94 10:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2007

Controversy

The recent controversy with drug dealings and bullying has lead to a fair bit of Vandalism. I think it would reduce Vandalism and make the article more accurate if a section was added about these recent events Enigmatarius 12:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply In an article listing only positive points of xavier's almost 130 year history listing such an insignificant point does not seem appropriate.

Re: Controversy

Extended content

I concur; I know these private schools try to sweep this sort of stuff under the rug but it's only fair considering the vicious video footage circulating the airwaves. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.50.86.159 (talk) 13:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

"Vicious" footage? Having personally known all the kids appearing in each video and being a close friend of the individual expelled I can say for sure it's not worth mentioning. Are we seriously going to put a mention on every school's wiki article every time a few friends decide to have a punch on or muck around with a bin?

If we reference the controversy on the xavier page then St. Kevins needs a mention about their video and Scotch needs a mention about the individual they expelled. Not to mention the scotch "gay porn" saga. It borders on ludicrous, in my opinion. Let's keep fact, and relevant fact at that on this site rather than sensationalised insignificant media bullshit. 59.167.71.220 07:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why shouldn't we make reference to criticisms of the college? The section is not an attempt to attack the students involved but to criticise the inaction and "cover ups" that is referred to above. The fact is, Wikipedia is designed to provide a fair, balanced and accurate description of its topics. Omitting negative details of Xavier is failing to maintain a neutral point of view by leaving out important facts. "Sensationalised insignificant media bullshit" it may be considered by some people to be but we must highlight the fact that there is a dark underbelly to this college. I encourage you to place references on the other college's pages. Thishttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Xavier_College_%28Melbourne%29&action=edit&section=6 Editing Talk:Xavier College (Melbourne) (section) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia doesn't board on ludicrous it is relevant and accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lordkyran (talk • contribs) 11:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. Where you make your mistake is when you refer to the "dark underbelly" of the college as "fact". It's not fact. Every school has kids who use drugs. You need to make a decision under WP:NOT#INFO as to whether or not the information is of encyclopaedic nature, and under point 5 which clearly states "Routine news coverage and matters lacking encyclopedic substance, such as announcements, sports, gossip, and tabloid journalism, are not sufficient basis for an article.". All of these articles bar two short ones in The Age were published in The Herald Sun, a notable TABLOID paper, with a view to misrepresent information and sensationalise in order to sell papers.

And there was no cover up either; the vice principal has gone on the record to say that information was given to everyone at the school about it straight after it happened with school-wide year level assemblies. Michael Carr-Greg was a dissatisfied past parent who went on the record against the College because his son was bullied there a few years ago. I hardly count his opinion as being from a reliable, neutral source.

I will not place any references on the pages of other Colleges, nor will I keep the misinformation on Xavier College. 59.167.136.86 05:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is a precedent for this on wikipedia. The Thomas Carr College (a catholic school in melbourne's western suburbs) page has a controversy section. so along with all the junk put on the wiki page by employee's of the school detailing how wonderful all their shit is, and putting in all this inane nonsense, there is also a controversy section. Xavier's history within the media spotlight deserves mention. The entire suspension of the year 12 class is not just a couple of people, or hat ever other damage control excuse is being used to present the image that the school is not a systematic failure

If there was one thing that we learned from our time at the school it was to consider everything on its merits. Criticism, if unfounded, will only enhance the truth when it is discovered to be baseless. Everyone who draws breath has something interesting to say and contribute "in this ever changing world in which we live in" live and let live. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.74.156.76 (talk) 14:25, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reputation

The reputation section seems to be pure advertising and adds little to this article. I can't see anything in there that either isn't already covered or could be incorporated into other areas of this article. Any objections to deleting this section? Loopla 16:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It contains similar information to articles about other APS schools, one of which used to be FA (Caulfield Grammar). Perhaps the heading is inappropriate but the content certainly isn't. I would support toning down the pro-Xavier vibe, but definitely not removing the entire section. Suicup 01:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Xaviercollegelogo.jpg

Image:Xaviercollegelogo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. BetacommandBot 18:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2008

Cleanup

I believe the article has had a sufficient cleanup. But it stills needs more citations. So, I have changed the template message from cleanup to needs additional citations. --Mvjs (talk) 22:46, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suspension of entire year 12

Extended content

This incident has had substantial (front page) coverage in reliable, independent newspapers today. Mention in the article was removed on the basis of WP:NOTNEWS. I can appreciate the claim that this is a one-off story that is not notable in the context of the school considered at large. However, I am hesitant to merely dismiss it purely on that basis. There are two possible concerns that are not unconnected from the above discussion re "Controversy". Firstly, the incident shouldn't be dismissed on the basis that it embodies criticism of the school - it is an issue that all school articles seem to have a pro-marketing/protective flavour that wards off "unhelpful" commentary. Secondly, I think it should stay if the incident is reflective of more than a one-off incident. Already the press today are linking the issue to the "student in bin" issue of a while back. So that would make it at least a "two-off" event. I also note that as at time of writing today's events have attracted 127 comments on The Age website, which may be a hint of notability. Again, maybe it is a case of WP:NOTNEWS but I'd welcome other opinions. Murtoa (talk) 03:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think people commenting on the story on a newspaper's website makes the story notable. The Age has a nice timeline of muck up day events over the past decade. Should we list each of these in the respective school articles? If this story wasn't receiving the news coverage it is, there would be no thought about inclusion in the article. It's just because it is Xavier that we are hearing about it. An encyclopaedia is not the place to list indiscriminant news mentions of various events about a particular subject. An encyclopaedia is also not the place for personal synthesises on possible linkages of several events. Mvjs Talking 05:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the incident has attracted undue coverage due to it being at a notable private school (not necessarily just Xavier). Regarding connections with prior incidents, it wasn't a personal perspective - from this article comes Channel Nine reported that the student injured yesterday was also the victim of a bullying incident last year, in which the then year 10 student was filmed being pushed upside down into a wheelie bin while students looked on and yelled jeers and abuse. The footage was placed on YouTube. The school has been the subject of other bullying claims in recent years, including a student allegedly being sent a threatening letter and a bullet in the mail. Xavier last year dismissed footage showing a student being kicked and verbally abused while lying on the ground with his school jumper over his head as "role playing". I'm not here to argue the merits of Channel Nine's coverage and this may be considered a beat-up. Ultimately I wouldn't support every bit of indiscriminate tittle-tattle being added to school articles. Also, I'd concede that these events aren't significant in the history of the school just as new digital scoreboards aren't significant. But it's an open question for me as to whether these incidents would constitute in aggregation something that could be noted in the article, even under a heading of Controversy, particularly if such a theme was developed by independent and reliable sources. You can sense that I'm not 100% convinced myself, and indeed these may be regarded as loosely connected incidents, but I'd be interested in other views. Murtoa (talk) 06:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with some of the points you have said Mutoa, i was just wondering if possibly, some of it should be included in the article, such as the alleged bullying as well as the incident which resulted in hospitalization of one of the younger students due to the muck up day incident. I say this because most parents (local and international) turn to wikipedia for information on schools such as Xavier prior to considering enrolling their children at a particular school, furthermore the college should have better enforced rules, threaten students with the idea of not being able to sit their exams at schools or even perhaps like other schools ban muck up day all together. Wikipedia is an great independent source for potential parents and major incidents such as this should definitely to a certain degree recorded. I'm happy to discuss this further. Sheepunderscore (talk) 05:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it will be very challenging to draw together a summary of the issues you have mentioned in a neutral manner based on reliable sources. In my view, although I advocated some mention of the controversy, there has been an over-reaction in the press. No school in Australia is immune to bullying, and the fact that a Xavier student was hospitalised from rough play on a school oval is not itself notable. The most notable aspect in this has been the blanket suspension of the entire year 12 group, although you will note from the stream of editing and reverting over the last two days, it's contentious. To draw conclusions on whether the school has managed this incident appropriately would be almost impossible to execute without bias or personal interpretation. It is not the role of Wikipedia editors to provide a guide for prospective parents. I'd also note in passing, it's impossible to avoid a final day of classes for year 12 students whenever it may occur - you can't actually "ban" them. I don't believe any school actually endorses the activities, but a matter of mitigating the risks associated with them. Murtoa (talk) 06:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2009

House system

I do not feel including the house system is encyclopaedic -- it is self promoting, violating WP:PROMOTION, doesn't cite any independent sources that fulfill WP:RS and doesn't have the significant coverage required by WP:NOTE. Australian Matt (talk) 00:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But if editors can add links to significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject to the Xavier house system, the section should be put back. Australian Matt (talk) 00:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anti social behaviour

For successive years Xavier College, through its principal, has been forced to apologise for the actions of its year 12 students on muck up day. It would suggest that Xavier, having in 2008 been forced to suspend its entire year 12 cohort, defend accusations of bullying, and this year witnessing egg throwing on a tram, has a deeper systemic problem that may warrant further discussionBrowning ave (talk) 10:52, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree. Not necessarily about the existence of "a deeper systemic problem", although that is possible, but about the fact that the school has gained media attention through these acts of its students. They are facts about the school, easily referenced, and would be the major (if not the only) reason people not connected with the school would have heard of it in recent years. HiLo48 (talk) 03:18, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Community service

If the hours are mandated, the students aren't volunteering. They are choosing an option to satisfy a compulsory requirement. HiLo48 (talk) 06:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]