User:Hoary/Not feeding trolls/Sources

From an old version (18:49, 9 July 2006) of WP:VPP:

Does Wikipedia feed trolls?

I think it does. Look at User_talk:205.188.116.139, for example. This AOLuser (or set of AOLusers) has accumulated white hands on red, white crosses on red, a "Final Warning" with a white hand on red on a splendid navy background, and finally (for the moment) an actual block. I'm not a pea-brained vandal (honest!); but I suspect that if I were, I'd be thrilled to bits by all this, as by the Very Serious Messages in boldface, and that I'd love to show my disaster-area talk page to my drinking buddies. I might even consider aiming to become a genuine Wikipedia celebrity, like WoW, whose every exploit is carefully recorded and who was even given his own graphic until some spoilsport got rid of it. Consider User:Willy_on_wheels: he's no longer with us, but what a cool memorial Wikipedia has constructed for him: a pink notice with red edges, citing "massive" vandalism (almost as impressive as "extreme" vandalism!), a really big white "X" on red, and mention of being "notorious" (just like this dude). WoW indeed!

I don't suggest that WP should let up on vandals. Far from it. I do suggest that , when it occurs, vandalism should be noted as coolly, simply, and boringly as possible. I'd do away with all the boldface, graphics, etc., in warning templates to vandals; scrap most of Willy's page (certainly his lists of accomplishments), as discussed in "Completely useless page"; and simply blank the pages of banned users, possibly adding the single word "banned" (in regular, boring lettering).

Or maybe all this typographic exuberance somehow manages to dissuade peabrains from recidivism. I can't imagine how, and I haven't noticed any such effect -- but I may be missing something subtle.

Care to discuss this here? Here? Somewhere else? -- Hoary 07:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

On one hand, I agree with you regarding Willy that our own reaction is what drove him, and that the same may be true for some other repeated vandals; on the other hand, this information is also useful both for historical interest and to enable new admins to identify the trademark techniques of repeated vandals as soon as possible. Ideally such "battle plan" information pages would be visible only to admins, but that's not technically possible. Also, most vandals are not repeat vandals, although they do do more damage than most. Deco 09:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

But could these lists have any historical interest? I'd say that WoW's individual attacks have the significance to Wikipedia (let alone the wider world) that, oh, the individual pustules of the young [insert name of pock-marked politician here] have to the politician decades later. The entire page could and I think should be replaced by something like If you notice that any username perpetrates more than a single jokey or inexplicable page move within a short period, report this at [link]; if you are an admin, permaban such a user. (We can and probably should argue about what to say and how to say it. My point is that this is short, simple, and doesn't aggrandize WoW.) As it is, however, we read among much else: Be sure to replace the userpage with {{WoW}} and add them to the second list below. Which implies to me: "Be sure to chalk this up to our pet celebrity; we all need to keep score." As for the claim that most vandals are not repeat vandals, I find that hard to believe; but even if it's true I don't see how that invalidates my suggestion. -- Hoary 10:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the problem lies with the weak, watered down, useless warnings. That guy should have been banned after 5 warnings, not 15+. And why even bother inviting someone to "practice in the sandbox" or be a "helpful member of the community" when they're clearly just a dumbass after attention? The warnings should be harsh, devoid of images/symbols that could be seen as badges, and actually have some force behind them. It's something Wikipedia will probably never change, but I always try to ammend in my own warnings to vandals. 66.229.182.113 10:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a fine line between clueless newbieism and vandalism, and our policies seem to lean heavily on the side of assuming the former: Don't Bite the Newbies. For the first act, that is reasonable unless it is very blatant. Or even the second, in some cases. Dedicated vandals are relatively rare. Were that not so, no surface in the country would be free of grafitti. Robert A.West (Talk) 11:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

If some amiable drunk cares to move "Sicilian Baroque" to "Sicilian Roque around the Cloque" in a one-off, I'll cut him a little slack. (No, do not try this. If you do, you will regret it.) If somebody does similar nonsense to three articles (let alone ten), then I, as an administrator, don't need a list of his previous exploits under different names to permaban him. A year ago, I, as a regular joe hereabouts, didn't need to read of his previous exploits to report him. Yes, dedicated vandals are relatively rare. They're easy to see. They don't need to have pedestals constructed for them. Meanwhile, repeat vandals are quite stunningly common; they amass splendid collections of warnings on their user pages. (Try this character, who incidentally disproves any notion that every AOLuser switches IP with every edit.) I half agree with 66.229.182.113 above: no images or badges, and fewer warnings. But I half disagree: no harshness. No, we should instead treat people politely, and give them the kind of clear, simple warnings that I (no child prodigy!) would have understood when I was 10. If they're too boneheaded (hopped up? drunk? sociopathic? [joking aside:] moronic?) to understand these, tough. I'm not advocating "zero tolerance" macho posturing. But neither do I think we need "five strokes and you're out, just for a little time, then five more strokes and you're out, but keep it to four strokes or less and you can waste people's time for ever -- and if you really work hard at it we'll lay on special templates for you." -- Hoary 11:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think treating IP's with kid gloves is part of the problem. For a logged-in user there is no reason to reset the clock in the manner you describe, but there may be real doubt about whether that borderline edit by an IP was the same as last week's vandal. Robert A.West (Talk) 12:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Wikipedia actively feeds the trolls, but I certainly can't say that it doesn't happen, either. During RfAs people often make a big deal about warning vandals and claim that it's helpful, and I agree that in many cases it is -- but I also think that in many cases it's not. I mean, what, a guy who likes to add "he also sucks dick" or things in that vein to articles about random people know perfectly well what he's doing. It's not an accident. I'm all for not biting the newbies, but the idea that you should start with a gentle warning and work your way up to "no, seriously, stop now or your vandalizing ass is blocked, and this time I mean it" is just ridiculous. I think it's perfectly acceptable to firmly tell them to stop, and if that doesn't do the trick, block them and move on to things that are actually useful. (Or, in some instances, just block them without a warning; a guy who pastes "BURT REYNOLDS IS A FAG" to a dozen articles can just cool his heels for 24 hours and then come back, and if that scares the guy off for good, it's not a great loss to Wikipedia.) I like to assume good faith, but once Mr. "Let's add some genitalia to articles" is on a roll, assuming good faith isn't courteous, it's just naive and even downright stupid. There's a difference between biting the newbies and getting sucker punched repeatedly.

Obviously, this is not to say that there are no borderline cases and everyone should be blocked at the drop of the hat. I'd say that most of the vandalism I revert is just random stuff that doesn't really repeat itself; very few of those are cases where a more drastic approach is required. But even then the usefulness of a warning is questionable, since most people obviously just want to do that one edit and see their "bestest acter forevar lol" message show up on the article, and then they go and watch some TV or whatever.

Also, I have to say that the page you directed us to as an example is actually a kind of a bad example of feeding the trolls. Sure, it's got a lot of warnings, but it's an AOL IP, and most of the warnings are clearly either by different people using scripts, or on separate days. Since it's extremely unlikely that the IP is actually used by the same person from one day to another, I think it's entirely legitimate to warn them again, since most people who stumble on Wikipedia don't even know that they have a talk page until the "you have new messages" notice shows up on their screen. (Of course, there are obvious instances in there where I think the editors in question should have just sicced an admin on the guy, since it was painfully obvious that the guy was not working to improve Wikipedia.) -- Captain Disdain 13:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with much of the above. As for the rest, while it's interesting, I'd rather that this didn't descend into digressions. Simple questions, then: First, yes, I agree that white hands and crosses on red backgrounds look serious and all that; but does anyone think that they're actually more effective than plain text? My own guess is that sometimes plain text can put vandals right and sometimes it can't; when it doesn't, graphics won't help; and when graphics don't help they can feed the trolls. Secondly, how is anyone helped by a list of a celebrity vandal's past feats? Thirdly, when a user is permabanned, who benefits from a stern message on his user page? I'd consign permabanned users to oblivion: no memorial, nothing to show off to their chums, just a big waste of their time. -- Hoary 15:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

So, you advocate making vandals unpedians? Wikiunpedians? Robert A.West (Talk) 04:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

What I'm suggesting is making warnings simple and clear but uninteresting, and arranging things so that a permabanned vandal has nothing whatever to show for his efforts. Not even a trivial notoriety; instead, nothing at all. -- Hoary 10:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know quite what to think of your proposals, just yet, I'll hope to have better comments when I've had more time. But for now, I do think you've got some good thoughts, at least. I remember situations on some forums where warned users would always have their username bolded in an orange font, with every post... wasn't long before the orange name became a badge of pride. Similar situations arise when there are "top ten most warned users" tables, it becomes a competition. One angle I might suggest we also look at: how does the current setup (and how would these proposals) affect those who combat vandalism? Would counter-vandals get bored by boring messages? Do counter-vandals enjoy reading the history of significant vandalisms in the past? Do these articles have any educational value? I'm not drawing conclusions, here, just throwing out a few thoughts. Brainstorming, if you will. Thanks for taking the time to read my ramble! Luna Santin 10:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)