User:Maurice27/Memorandum of Understanding
Today, I received this message by Dunadan in my talk-page:
"I have actually invited you, Owdki and Mountolive to discuss with references, not with opinions and accusations. We didn't get you banned because you opposed our "biasing" [sic]. You got yourself banned for violating several Wikipedia rules. We simply pointed them out. Mountolive also disagrees with us, but he has never been banned. His attitude has always been constructive. It think, based on your previous comments on how "xenophobic" we all are, that you must review your own intentions and your own biases. Please bring a positive attitude, a willingness to compromise and reputable references to the discussion. We would be more than happy to work with you in that way. Cheers!" --the Dúnadan 15:52, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
After reading it, I decided to write what I would call a Memorandum of understanding. I don’t know if this will be of any help, but, as I was asked to “bring a positive attitude, a willingness to compromise and reputable references to the discussion”, I will at least give it a try.
The same “positive attitude” that is asked to me, is, many times forgotten by the same users demanding it. If we all admit our defects (we all have them and I’m probably the one with most), it would be very useful to reach any consensus. Let me go name by name (in alfabetical name) to prevent this text to be excessively long.
Apart your ALWAYS rightful edits and comments, I will only say that I love, admire and worship your sarcasm and sense of humour. The world lacks of people of your kind. ;)
Good to see you back, I think you're on the right track here.
And the lion shall lie down with the lamb....in what was destined to be a one night stand at least one of them would regret in the morning.
- Waiting for your block to end, I must say that I’m not happy with it. On the contrary, I have never tried to get anyone of you blocked or banned, something you all tried with me. I’m not happy with it, but I really believe you deserved it! You flagrantly negliged my rights as a user reverting my edits. You felt in your own trap trying to get me. You even failed to participate in the discussion.
- You are probably the only one of the Cat-Team who has insulted me, calling my country “one of the most genocides in history”. Not that I regret it, as anyone can get hot-blooded from time to time. What is disgusting, is that you didn’t admit it and you even ask me to apologize to you.
- If you ask other users to follow wikipedia rules, you should be the first one to preach with the example, something you constantly fail to.
- In one word, RESPECT!!! Respect is what you lack.
I thank your intention to “turn back to zero” this whole situation. You are the only from the “Cat-Team” to have asked for it, even multiple times. You are also the only to have ever greeted me for any of my comments or changing of attitude. This said, here’s what I believe you should change:
- A consensus is like a negotiation. I do not know if you have any knowledge about marketing and/or sales theory. In my work-life, I was teached something; that a negotiation (call it consensus) needs a “fifty-fifty” or “win-win” situation to have a good end between both parts. Both parts must have the feeling that it is a victory (even if small). If one of the sides feels that he is losing the negotiation, he will never pact. If one of the sides does not even move a bit from his place of start, a solution/consensus is impossible. Now, translate this to wikipedia. Both sides have to yield, if only a bit, in order to get the other side happy. Since we met in this world of wikipedia, you have been one of the most participative users on talk-pages, always ready for extra-long discussions on the articles. Users like Mountolive and myself have already told you that discussing with you is like hitting our heads against a wall (I even remember calling you a brick, sorry for that). But that is exactly how I felt… That I was losing hours and hours of my time trying to explain my point, arguing, explaining, just to find out, some hours later, that you kept strongly in your place without even relaxing a bit your position. I can assure you that it is extremely dissapointing.
A good example of this is your refusal to let us include the name in spanish at the table of Valencian Community. You claimed that the official name was in Catalan/Valencian, and we did not argue that. We only asked to include the name also in spanish as a deference of the millions of inhabitants who speak that language in that community, being spanish, also an official language. After hundreds of Kb of futile discussion, you didn’t move a bit. “fifty-fifty” is a must. If you already got the name in Catalan/Valencian (which was your point), why didn’t you accept the inclusion of the spanish name? Remember, this is only an example, but it shows perfectly your attitude against finding the consensus you love to proclaim.
- You ask to illustrate my arguments with references. I guess you are forgetting that I’m probably the user of all of us who most uses them. As an example, may I remember all the ones I gave to back the Valencian Flag dispute. Again, this is only one example. If you need more, I will post them here
- Your attitude against my manners are, in my belief, completely out of place. I have never denied them to be bad in the past. But I also believe nobody can’t say anything bad about me since the RfA. So I ask you stop your complaints about it.
- Wow, Maurice27, I find this memorandum of understanding pleasantly surprising, and I definitely commend you and thank you for taking the step in doing so. I am more than open to start from zero, forget the past, and move forward into building consensual articles-like you said, out of compromise- when it comes to topics related to Catalonia and Spain.
- True, I stand strongly and firmly in my position -usually backed up with references- but only when other users simply resort to using their own opinions to reject primary or secondary sources and the research conducted by other users. But on other occasions in which you have indeed brought sources, I have conceded (like the issue with the Valencian flag), even if I disagreed with the interpretation. In fact, even when I questioned the interpretation, and question it I did, I did not -and have not since- reverted any of the subsequent changes over the proportions of the flag in the many articles in which it appears. Why? Because you argued not based on your own opinion, but based on sources obtained through research.
- Call it a weakness, but I find it really frustrating when I come up with plenty of sources, like legal documents, and users simply reject them because whatever the Catalan Parliament approves is like the opinion of the man in a pub, or it just sounds bad in English [not attributed specifically to you, but that has been the mood of the arguments in which all of us have been involved]. I find it really hard to build a constructive discussion, much less reach compromise out of those arguments. I hope you understand that.
- However, based on your intentions for reconciliation, I am more than happy to do my part, forgetting past actions of whatever user, and making all efforts to reach a compromise version of whichever articles we are involved in; yes fifty-fifty. But I do ask that all compromised versions be based not on political positions, nor opinions, but on a thorough honest research in which primary and secondary sources are given their due importance in presenting whatever situation and the different POVs related to it.
- I am really glad to see this endeavor for reconciliation for all of us, and really commend you for it.
- --the Dúnadan 23:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- Because we haven't met in latter times, I forgot to add you here in first place. I don't have any critcs right now, since a long time has past. I remember we "fought" in the past for many of the reasons I'm exlaining to others... But the sum up, again in: respect!
- I don't have time for wikipedia now but I'm happy about what seems to be a new attitude from you. Probably the first times between us were harder than the latter ones. In the arbitration my opinion was what I said and I personally felt that there was no chance of a change of attitude coming from you on catalan related topics. But let's hope it was an error :) Merry Christmas and happy editing! --GillesV (talk) 23:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
- It's 2009 and I will not be editing in wikipedia as I've no time but I see that I was right on one point during that 2007 arbitration... It is impossible for you Maurice to edit about catalan related topics without being POVish But I don't think is your fault simply it is your nature. :-) --GillesV (talk) 23:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Even if he hasn’t showed up for quite a long time, I haven’t nothing to say about him.
We met sometime ago, and we started collaborating to improve some articles. It was a fine agreement which I enjoyed much. Sadly in last times, we have only met in the argumentation of the talk-pages.
I must admit that I got very touched when I read this comment about me: “Però l'home prefereix un altre estil i ja es major per decidir el que vol. Jo preferiria que fóra un altre estil, perque tindria un "amic" en el que confiar, però bueno....”
You know very well that when I’m not oppressed, I may be a lovely companion in editing. I’m just a person who values the RESPECT for others more than anything in the world. When I cross with people who doesn’t respect me for the many reasons I’m explaining here, I explode. I’m sorry if that is my way, I’m not in any way proud of it, but that’s how I am. I can’t be polite with someone who isn’t polite with me, would that be insulting my country, not paying attention at my arguments, or simply trying to get me blocked by all means. I’m only asking for RESPECT! Respect for my edits, Respect for my arguments, Respect for my sources and references, Respect for my beliefs… to sum up, Respect for all the hours that I am investing from my spare time in order to get wikipedia a better place. I can assure you that, if I feel respected, I will respect, and we will be able to work again together improving articles. That is sincerely my hope.
- You dont have anything to say about Joanot also known as Benimerín de la Pradera? F@#k, I do have things to say about him. But I guess this is not the purpose of this page anyway ;) Wow, by inviting him to show up again (under an even newer disguise, maybe?) you are proving to be in a REALLY good mood today! :)
- Sorry if that comment didnt sit well with you, but, indeed, I think I said before somewhere else that I'd like that you expressed yourself in some other way, because, unlike -I guess- the other people around here, I think your posts usually have a respectable point to be defended; for example, if other editors have heard all of their life that something is "Northern Catalonia" they just need to be reminded that, for some other editors, that is "Southern France" and that they believe is "Northern Catalonia", while respectable, does not merit official recognition here just because TV3, ERC, whoever, calls it like that. And, since I think you are smart and have a point, I know that you could do it soooooooo much better yourself in terms of that "marketing" you wisely point out around here ;)
- It would help your point so much better than some of the posts you made in talk pages which, sometimes, I admit put a smile on my face because you get so burnt out around here that a less-than-encyclopedical tone (to call it somehow ;) is actually appreciated to slow down people around here who think the world of themselves, they think they are writing Brytannica or something and, actually, wikipedia is just something which anyone can edit and that should be kept in mind...but those posts of yours a little bit over the top, I know you could make them less direct and yet so much more efficient in order to defend your version of the story, which is as good as any other's.
- In this regard, I think you haven't been fair to Xtv. And, while not agreeing with the new front he just opened, you should admit that by sitting on his nerves you are only making him more and more bolder, doing so maybe not in the right direction.
- It's true, when you are in a more calmed environment, you are a great editor, helping out with translations (no one from what the CAT-TEAM showed up to help with improving, for example, Valencian Community in its uncontroversial sections (Economy and else), nor they did any translation effort of any kind in Kingdom of Valencia, while you did both. You should, IMHO, stress this side of yourse instead of getting pissed by them so easily. When you are such a "sweetie" :P ;) I can refer to you and reach out for your help, but when you are in a less sweet way, then I am basically by myself, because you get a real "independentist" yourself sometimes ;) even if you don't realize.
- Damn, I am not saying that you can not defend yourself, not even that you can not use some witty (or less than witty) tirades from time to time (I do myself, sometimes) because discussions too frequently get stalled and the whole thing gets depressing and very frustrating, but, overall, just saying that you will be a good boy probably won't help you with these guys which, by now, probably hate you in various grades. You will have to prove it.
- It this regard, it can be said in your behalf that you opened this page, which is a nice step in the right direction.
- Don't hate me for this, ok? ;) The last thing I need now is you smashing my head mercily as well :D As I said, despite not sharing your style when you get out of hand (that's, as you said, when you feel offended, for, indeed, you've been called Frenchie chauvinist and stuff by some of these guys as well, so no one is really innocent) I still think that your edits have a good point most of the times. Mountolive | Oh My God, Whatever, Etc. 23:58, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
We haven’t met much and I don’t have much to tell you. You have your opinion and you respect the others. Welcome to the club I guess. ;)
- Daaaammmnnnn this is really constructive! The only thing I see now is this big approach. I hope to see everybody here, as a beginning. Please, Maurice, could you add GillesV, and send him an ad? I think he should be here too. I'll be out till this weekend. Cheers. --Owdki talk 04:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
You are probably the editor (apart Owkdi) with whom I have the least contact of all. You arrived to the “Catalan Cacophony articles” indirectly. On the contrary to the general belief, I think you are a wonderful admin. I remember when some months ago, I was calling even worst things that what Xtv, Dúnadan and Casaforra are calling you, but in my case, in French. Your position in this cat fight is difficult. Even a RfA has obtained nothing. I even believe they didn’t take care at all of our (ALL of us) proposals.
What I found out was, that you only criticized me for my manners, and almost never for my edits. That was what made me realize I was wrong and you were right. Thanks for respecting that.
I only hope your status is not endangered by (what I believe) a ridiculous complaint about your acting. Hopefully Xtv and Dúnadan will realize they are wrong.
- Can I propose a group collaboration to get Ariel Santamaria (or Coordinadora Reusenca Independent, or Juantxism which ever people prefer) up to FA standard? If only to show other people that Catalonia is not just about fighting (many past wars put aside!) Physchim62 (talk) 13:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- I must admit my vision of you has changed drastically in the last hours. It seems that what you are only looking for, is to get everyone who confronts you to be banned or blocked. I find that attitude absolutly disgusting!
- You are also one of the messiahs of the “consensus”. As said above, negotiation is a “fifty-fifty”, but I will never accept to describe anyone as of “catalan nationality”, never! You are trying to make edits which trespass the limits of coherence. Your argumentation about it is simply nonsensical. I don’t care about describing anyone as “spanish of catalan descent”, “spanish born in Catalonia”, “spanish with catalan nationality beliefs”… That, is a “fifity-fifty”. “Spanish-Catalan Nationality” is not acceptable!
- Hi Maurice27, it's good to see this good predispostion to solve problems. I am a bit affraid it's not the first time I see a change of behaviour on you, but I will assume this time goes for true and I will try to do all my best to forget the past.
- First I answer you:
- Don't be confused. I have repeated many times I have nothing against discussing your POV and trying to get consensus. I have already given dozens of times the example of Mountolive as someone who doesen't share my POV and with whom it has been possible to find consensus. However, I think that your behaviour in Wikipedia has gone much, much too far than anybody else. I think honestly I could find no other user in this list (including Joanot, as far as I know) who has had a so disruptive behaviour. I felt directly insultated many times because of your comments, and I think I never ever told you any, any offence. Therefore I find the sentence you told to Mountulive ("I’m just a person who values the RESPECT for others more than anything in the world. When I cross with people who doesn’t respect me for the many reasons I’m explaining here, I explode") some kind of irony. Then, I must say I am pretty affraid when I see you comment in a talk page. During a lot of time, almost everything I read from you was SHOUTING with bold letters and many exclamations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And worst of all, a tone of arrogany and lack of respect (you are wrong! all you tell are lies!) that didn't look like any fifty-fifty. In fact one of the biggest problems has been I have never seen (or at least now I don't remember, sorry) you moving one milimeter from your POV to accept another. All this said (and it's just a justification of what I am going to say now, if your actitude now changes I promise I forget quickly everything), I must say I was seeing you more disturbing than improving Wikipedia (at least in the articles I check). Therefore, when you broke 3RR I thought it was incomprensible that an experienced user like you could not wait some hours discussing in a talk page as we did the CAT-team when you inserted the template, and you had to make an edit war. If Mountolive had been the one reverting I wouldn't have reported him, but anyway, precisely because this is not his style.
- As I told already in the incidents page, I think Casaforra should have been just warned or, if blocked, just for one day. It was his first time, and first time never is for a week. You have to admit that one week for this block is excessive. If you consider this together with the fact that Physhim62 "promised" not dealing (as an arbitrator) with Catalonia articles and he blocked precisely a user with whom he has discrepances, I think honestly that Physhim62 (as also some admins have said) should have clearly recused himself. Let's remark there were already other admins looking 3RR page and he took the decision without even leave there a comment. I already told him I have nothing agains his comments, modifications etc. in articles, but I think he should never take any administrative power (except obvious cases) in Catalonia related articles. Don't be confused, I don't want him to be banned or blocked, I just want him not to use administrative powers in discussions in which he is related. Let's remark there is not the first time that Physhim62 has been accused of abusing of his administrative powers (and not just by CAT-team) and that just after some hours another users (both admins) accused him again because of this reason. I really do not care at all if Physhim62 is recused of being administrator or he becomes a part in arbitration comitee, really. And all my complaints were about it. Look carefully I did just an informal complain to solve the problem with Casaforra, not to recuse him. I thought that it was necessary however to explain the background of Casaforra's block so that admins could understand why was he blocked, and then I needed to mention the abuse (always from my POV) of Physhim62. I requested to know where I could make and official complain because in case other administrators agreed this was an abuse or I notice he abuses again, I would like to know where to report him. But until now, I just made an inoficial complain, nothing more.
- About nationality: it's not a good point to start saying you will never accept my POV. I have already told you once and I repeat the same: Nationality can be interpreted as the nation you belong to. There are milions of people who think Catalonia is a nation. There are milions who think is not. Neither you not me are the ones who can say if it is or it is not. You think it is not. I think it is. But look carefully the verb: think, not know. Moreover, I don't think that starting an article Mr. T is a Catalan painter you are assuming he has Catalan passport. I could (and probably in Catalan Wikipedia you can find) start one article with "Mr. W is an Empordanese painter..." and at least, in Catalan Wikipedia (I understand in English one it would be quite too specific) wouldn't be a problem at all. And I would never interpret that there is a Passport from Empordà or an Empordan nation. And about your examples, “spanish of catalan descent”, “spanish born in Catalonia”, “spanish with catalan nationality beliefs” for example wouldn't work with Montilla, but I think we all agree he is Catalan. I think we can find a formula which can satisfy everybody and then apply it to every discussion.
- Now my requests:
- Change radicaly your attitude. Read twice or three times your posts before posting them (perhaps even wait one day before publishing them and then look them again more quitely), looking carefully that no trace of arrogance, bitter irony or insult remains there. Try to write in an encyclopedic way also in Talk pages, remind we are in Wikipedia and not in a bar. I consider for example having still Joanot's quotes in your User Page does not satisfy the policy about the content in User Pages. I think it would be a great start to show us your new attitude by removing them (BTW, I think this Mountolive pearl deserves to be in your list )
- Basically changing your attitude is my only request. It's better then to recall it then twice :-)
- My offer:
- Well, surelly I could continue writting some more hours too, but as you said, I think for now this is enough. Now, as Mountolive told you, if you prove you are a "good boy", I promise I'll forget all your past and from my side we can start again from the beggining.
- Now... let's go for a beer? ;-) --Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 02:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I believe that is all. I will probably add more things once I relax. If anyone, as Dúnadan proposed, is willing to collaborate with “positive attitude”, he is invited to claim here what they don’t like about the others in order to end this “cul de sac” that our relationship has become.
I know most of the critics will be against me, but I’m open to read them and act accordingly IF, from now on, What I said about you all is understood and I see REAL willingness to change from ALL of us.
Thanks for reading, --Maurice27 21:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)