User talk:Alorkezas

Lukuas

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response to your massage "Coin of Porcius Festus"

Hello, according to my opinion, the license of the pictures of my coins is free. good luck, Itamar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.124.75.49 (talk) 18:26, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Herod Philip II and Coponius

Maybe it has to do with the the easy confusion with Herod Philip I somehow. -- just posted that info from somewhere else on Wikipedia, so I cannot really help.--Carlaude (talk) 16:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Matthew and Luke's Nativity Accounts

Thanks for your comments on this subject. We have a basic conflict of tasks though. I put down the comparison of the two accounts, treating each as though it was a separate witness to the narrative they provide. This means you have to read each for the meaning that it conveys. You are going beyond this in a manner to interpret the data, not based on the individual account but based on how you think the accounts fit together. I don't agree with this process of taking from one and then the other and mingling them to get a new narrative. And it's not our place to do so on Wiki.

Matthew tells us that Joseph took Mary as his wife, ie he took her into his household. She gives birth to the child. We are told this is Bethlehem. The writer leaves you with no possibility to think that Mary was in Nazareth. In fact Nazareth doesn't come into this narrative until the family first moves there in 2:22-23.

The stories are different. Why must you force them together? --Doktorspin (talk) 05:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Finally fixed "after 66 days".

Matthew doesn't feature Mary at Nazareth because they lived in Bethlehem until the departure to Egypt. When they came back from Egypt, they couldn't return to Judea (Bethlehem) for some reason regarding Archelaus. It is only then that they moved to Galilee and came and dwelt in Nazareth. I've added a footnote to Joseph's home being Bethlehem, but I need to expand it as there is something important I need to stress: reading Matthew's birth narrative in the light of Luke's narrative creates a new birth narrative. --spin (talk) 19:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

A new narrative may in fact reflect reality, but it adds another layer of unverifiability, ie it's further into the unknowable, and therefore nothing to do with history.

You wrote:

The writer's presentation doesn't allow the reader to think that there was any change of venue – I think Matthew's presentation does allow the reader to think so. It doesn't indicate, suggest or imply, but why doesn't allow?

You've basically answered your own question. As it "doesn't indicate, suggest or imply", the only natural reading of the text is that the birth happened in the same venue. The only way you can try to get around that is to graft material from another narrative, a narrative which is in conflict with it, for Luke says that Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth before going to Bethlehem (2:39). This is simply not the case with Matthew, which says that the family couldn't go back to Judea so they moved to Galilee. Matthew's presentation of Galilee is of a new location, and the writer feels the need to justify the change of location. This is not a matter of assumption; it's a matter of reading the text for what it indicates.

The stories are very different (is there as much as 10% similar material?) and at times they conflict (eg either Jesus was born under Herod or at the time of Quirinius, in a house or a manger). There is no necessity to force them to appear to be in harmony. You can make them fit together, but that would be after assuming they do and finding excuses where they don't. --spin (talk) 06:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

---

Trying to use apocrypha to verify gospel is again adding another layer of unknowability. We don't know when the apocryphal works were written, by who or why. This is not evidence. It is unreliable hearsay generally dating after the time of the gospels and perhaps long after them.

Regarding the conception, you ask: "Don't you agree that this could happened anywhere, not necessarily in Bethlehem?" If we read Matthew, obviously, no. You sneak past the evidence: "He speaks about married, thought of divorce, etc and then that After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea... ". He actually speaks about agreement of marriage and eventually fulfillment of that agreement, when he takes her, but doesn't have relations until the birth. We discover that the birth was in Bethlehem. Natural reading says they live where the birth took place.

You say, "Maybe there isn't as much as 10% similar material, but it not prejudge about falsehood of one or both." It's not a matter of falsehood: it's a matter of conjecture. We have two overtly different stories having at most 10% in common. Can we not leave it at that? -- rather than using conjecture to create a new story, which may or may not be correct.

Your efforts to harmonize the conflict won't change the fact that you cannot claim more than conjecture status of your efforts. --spin (talk) 09:13, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Coins

Dear Alorkezas,

My name is Itamar, and before few years you ask me about the coin of Festos. Now i return Wikipedia and i have great collection of Ancint coins - from Rome, Greek and Israel. I happy if you can help me. i want to sent the photos to Wikimedia Commons, and i need someone help me to enter the photos to the diffrent languages Wiki. you have many languages and i happy if you help me.

thanks you very much! Itamar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.45.186 (talk) 09:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)