User talk:Boltguy
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[edit]Hi Boltguy! I noticed your contributions to Scampi 30 and wanted to welcome you to the Wikipedia community. I hope you like it here and decide to stay.
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Happy editing! Schminnte (talk • contribs) 22:18, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
January 2023
[edit]
Hello, I'm Ahunt. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Scampi 30, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. You can note that we do not accept claims based on "I know stuff, because I own one". This is original research. All additions and claims must be verifiable by being cited to to reliable references, particularly when the claim contradicts the cited reliable sources already used in the article as in your case. - Ahunt (talk) 22:52, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- "Citation"? Your "original research" methodology is deeply flawed if you can't accept facts provided by owners of the actual boats in question. Boltguy (talk) 23:07, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Our requirement for citations from reliable sources and prohibition on original research are hard policies here on Wikipedia, because it is an encyclopedia and not a blog. There several good reasons for this policy. The first that everything written on Wikipedia has to be verifiable, meaning anyone can double check the information and confirm that it is correct from the original source. You obviously can't do that for things you think you know but are not written down anywhere. A second reason is that if you can just add stuff you know, then someone else can claim you are wrong and they are right and change the article to their version and there is no way to figure which is correct. All you have is two people's undocumented experiences that conflict. A third and related problem is that a lot of people who think they just "know stuff" are plain wrong. I take a lot of sailboat photos to illustrate articles here. Taking pictures of boats is easy, but identifying which type of boat they are can be harder. On three occasions I have asked boat owners what boat type they are sailing and have been given wrong information. One guy I met had owned the boat for 20 years and swore it was a particular boat type. A member of the type club told me he was wrong, but I found three written sources, with pictures, that solved the case. He was wrong, he didn't have the boat he thought he had. Just a few reasons why we don't accept "I know stuff" in an encyclopedia. - Ahunt (talk) 00:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- As I had noted, I completely understand your position. And, I respect it as well. Nevertheless, your information is without any doubt, wrong and incorrect. Take, for example, your citation-less claim that the Scampi was also built by the Yamaha Corporation as the Yamaha 30. Nothwithstanding that this boat doesn't have the Scampi's distinctive hard chine, it's obvious to anybody who does a "Sailboat Guide" review of both boats that the dimensions clearly prove that they're quite unique. Just because the Yamaha 30 was also designed by Peter Norlin (apparently) doesn't mean that it's a Japanese version of a Scampi 30! Nevertheless, you claim with great authority that it is. So... as this is an example of your incorect data, surely you can accept that you may have a few other facts wrong as well.
- If you're unwilling (or rather "unable") to allow an an actual authority to correct this page, the least you could do is include a big flaming red and bold disclaimer that unlike what it implies, the page contains details which are in dispute. Boltguy (talk) 00:45, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Our requirement for citations from reliable sources and prohibition on original research are hard policies here on Wikipedia, because it is an encyclopedia and not a blog. There several good reasons for this policy. The first that everything written on Wikipedia has to be verifiable, meaning anyone can double check the information and confirm that it is correct from the original source. You obviously can't do that for things you think you know but are not written down anywhere. A second reason is that if you can just add stuff you know, then someone else can claim you are wrong and they are right and change the article to their version and there is no way to figure which is correct. All you have is two people's undocumented experiences that conflict. A third and related problem is that a lot of people who think they just "know stuff" are plain wrong. I take a lot of sailboat photos to illustrate articles here. Taking pictures of boats is easy, but identifying which type of boat they are can be harder. On three occasions I have asked boat owners what boat type they are sailing and have been given wrong information. One guy I met had owned the boat for 20 years and swore it was a particular boat type. A member of the type club told me he was wrong, but I found three written sources, with pictures, that solved the case. He was wrong, he didn't have the boat he thought he had. Just a few reasons why we don't accept "I know stuff" in an encyclopedia. - Ahunt (talk) 00:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Once again we go by what reliable sources say, not people's opinions. Our standard here on Wikipedia is Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. If that seems not clear enough, this has more of an explanation in a humorous presentation: WP:THETRUTH.
- The citation for the Yamaha version is given in the text as https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/scampi-30-3 which says
The third version of the SCAMPI was built by a number of firms around the world. (In Japan as the YAMAHA-30).
The article text is supported by the citation.
- The citation for the Yamaha version is given in the text as https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/scampi-30-3 which says
- We normally don't use disclaimers that the contents are in dispute. If reliable sources do not agree on a subject we resolve them one way or another, by determining which one is correct, or if that is not possible, by citing both and then, often, by saying right in the text, "this source says X, while this other source says Y". But we don't say "all the cited reliable sources say X, no written source says Y, but some person thinks it is right anyway". In some cases we have seen that all cited sources are correct, even when they disagree. A good example in the area of sailboats is when different sources are based on factory brochure specs from different years and the specs have changed in the intervening period. If you can source your claims to a reliable reference then I am happy to figure out a way to incorporate that information. - Ahunt (talk) 01:08, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- An interjection here if I may. Boltguy, I feel your pain here. As an owner of an Aloha 27 and having the mould in which all were built, pretty much next door, the last two of these vessels were built here in Tatamagouche NS as the Parks 27. No third-party reference can be found, so it is as if the boats do not actually exist.I'm here to tell you that indeed, they do. Having said that I have managed to find a couple of references for the Yamaha 30 here and here. Same designer as the Scampi, different builder of course. Hope this is helpful. Regards, Aloha27 talk 01:30, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank-you for your comments, Aloha27. And for yours as well, Ahun. It's really rather silly of me to feel "pain" about this relatively trivial matter! Whereas I truly admire the control over data, I do find it to be frustrating when earlier details which hadn't been subject to such control are taken as gospel. For example, the citation for the claim that the Yamaha 30 is the builder's version of the Scampi 30 is based on incorrect information; the writer of that entry on Sailboatdata got it wrong! As noted, one simply has to look at the published dimensions of the two boats to see that they're quite distinct. For all of its benefits, there seems to be a deep flaw within Wikipedia as the truth does indeed play second fiddle to verifiability, regardless of how blatantly incorrect the latter sometimes is. Boltguy (talk) 13:28, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- I've pulled-up my socks and have attributed a proper citation to an edit on the Scampi 30 page! I've also noted and supported the spelling mistake of "Farrymann" as well as commenting on the uncited and incorrect statement that the Yamaha 30 is the Yamaha Corportation's version of the Scampi 30. Boltguy (talk) 16:10, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank-you for your comments, Aloha27. And for yours as well, Ahun. It's really rather silly of me to feel "pain" about this relatively trivial matter! Whereas I truly admire the control over data, I do find it to be frustrating when earlier details which hadn't been subject to such control are taken as gospel. For example, the citation for the claim that the Yamaha 30 is the builder's version of the Scampi 30 is based on incorrect information; the writer of that entry on Sailboatdata got it wrong! As noted, one simply has to look at the published dimensions of the two boats to see that they're quite distinct. For all of its benefits, there seems to be a deep flaw within Wikipedia as the truth does indeed play second fiddle to verifiability, regardless of how blatantly incorrect the latter sometimes is. Boltguy (talk) 13:28, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- An interjection here if I may. Boltguy, I feel your pain here. As an owner of an Aloha 27 and having the mould in which all were built, pretty much next door, the last two of these vessels were built here in Tatamagouche NS as the Parks 27. No third-party reference can be found, so it is as if the boats do not actually exist.I'm here to tell you that indeed, they do. Having said that I have managed to find a couple of references for the Yamaha 30 here and here. Same designer as the Scampi, different builder of course. Hope this is helpful. Regards, Aloha27 talk 01:30, 13 January 2023 (UTC)