User talk:Camw/Archives/2011/January

Help in Bicycle kick

Hi! I need your help in a discussion that has taken place in Bicycle kick. I don't want to continue in the edition war currently taking place there so I'm requesting your help since you're an administrator here and also part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Football. Your participation would be great for the sake of the article. Thanks! --B1mbo (talk) 20:04, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I'm sorry, I would like to help but I don't think I'll have time this week. Try asking again at the wikiproject if you have exhausted all efforts to come to a compromise with the other editor. Camw (talk) 01:40, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I've tried everything and I don't want to continue in the edit war. The user hasn't only erased all the efforts I've tried to do but also has accused me of using my position at Wikimedia Chile as a platform to promote certain bias, something I personally believe it's unacceptable [1]. I understand that you don't have enough time (I don't have too) but could you give me the name of some admins that could take part in the discussion and mediate; nobody at the project has addresed the issue and the user has used a lot of patronizing sentences that are very rude. I don't want this to develop into an endless discussion like the one that took place at Spanish Wikipedia. Thanks a lot --B1mbo (talk) 02:27, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I've had a quick look - can you tell me briefly what makes the existing wording unacceptable - "In the Spanish speaking world the bicycle kick is not only called tijera (scissors), but is also commonly known as either chalaca or chilena". To me it seems as though it covers the name you want included, so I need some more information about why it is wrong. Camw (talk) 02:41, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Chilena is the name most used (including FIFA) for the move but it is contested by the Peruvian claim, who uses chalaca instead. Tijera (scissor) is used as a different move by several dictionnaries but one. This only reference is used by MarshalN92 to push his view that tijera is the principal name of the move and that chilena is secondary. That is why he also pushes the idea of using "scissor" as the most used word in the world, something difficult to say considering one source that doesn't even say that; instead, I put that different languages usually use the shape of the move and gave examples like "scissor", "bicycle" and the other names in German and Italian. Also, I removed the same Spanish dictionary Marshal is using to push his idea from the definition of the English name. You can see the last changes I made here. [2] Thanks a lot for your help. --B1mbo (talk) 02:54, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I guess I don't really understand why there is a major dispute over this. Would you be happy with wording along the lines of "In the Spanish speaking world the bicycle kick is commonly known as a chalaca, chilena or bicicleta,<reference> with the word tijera usually being used to describe a scissor kick.<reference>" ? If that is acceptable, I can ask Marshall if he would be happy to accept it. Camw (talk) 03:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

The point is that the bicycle kick in Spanish is called "chilena" or "chalaca" (I don't want to enter in the discussion which one is the most used at this moment), at least according to what is described in the images and the text. "Tijera" is mostly used for a similar but different move, that's why some movements could be called a "chilena" or a "tijera" (especially if it's not clearly done). The main point is that while chilena and chalaca are clear translations of the move, tijera is not because there are different definitions for it (some supporting it, others against it). At least, that is what the sources I presented say and that's why at Spanish Wikipedia we have two different articles: es:Chilena (fútbol) and es:Tijera (fútbol). --B1mbo (talk) 03:27, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Is the wording I used acceptable to you? It mentions which move is linked to which terms. Camw (talk) 03:52, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I guess in this case, the chilena or chalaca would be closer to an overhead kick and tijera for a 'scissor kick, although the article says they are synonym while they are not the case in the Spanish language. As far as the difference is acknowledged in the article, I'm ok. If you can see the other issues that have been arised, would be really useful too. Thanks a lot for your help. --B1mbo (talk) 01:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Regarding B1mbo and the BK (not burger king)

Camw, my position is that B1mbo is POV pushing with the use of his original research. I will not impose this thought upon you or make a long rant, but I will show you my evidence with the expectation that you will understand my position. First, this is the most recent diff: [3].

1. The first matter to be noticed is that B1mbo's edit imposes the view that "chilena" is somehow more important than other terms. It is an obvious case of WP:PEACOCK.
2. FIFA uses several terms, including "tijera" (as seen in this link [4]). I don't understand why it is so important for him to include this reference to FIFA. It only leads me to think this is part of the WP:PEACOCK situation.
3. He references the president of the Peruvian football federation in order to, once again, promote his idea that "chilena" is somehow the most important term in Spanish. There are plenty notable people that have voiced their support for the competing term "chalaca", but such matters are avoided in order to not fill the article up with a list of people supporting different positions. Once more, I have to think this furthers the WP:PEACOCK matter.
4. His usage of the dictionaries (which only define terms), in order to come up with his own conclusions are an example of original research (WP:OR). I have explained to both this user and his buddy (3BRBS) why their personal conclusions from tertiary sources (dictionaries) are original research, but they do not seem to understand (or want to understand). None of the dictionaries that B1mbo presents claim (or present) that "tijera" and "chilena" are opposites or different. In fact, the dictionaries he presents simply define both terms (nothing more and nothing less). However, the academic thesis by a PhD from the University of Barcelona (which is the source I am using) presents both "tijera" and "chilena" as synonyms.

This is really all of what I can evaluate from his edits. Next, I would like to evaluate my position:

1. I would like to in-text cite "El Mercurio" (i.e., write out that the information presented in the sentence comes from them) because they are a non-academic source that is presenting unique information that has not been corroborated by any other source. Their information cannot simply be presented as the final authority on the matter.
2. I am citing El Mercurio's list from other languages because it is an interesting fact, and nothing is being taken out of context. In the mention of the list I explain that they are mostly European languages, and that most of these terms are either "scissors kick" followed by "bicycle kick".
3. My presentation of the terms "tijera", "chalaca", and "chilena" in this section is perfectly valid and without controversy. In fact, it happens to be user B1mbo and his pal 3BRBS who seem to have a personal agenda to promote the term "chilena" at all costs.

Well, this is my opinion on the matter. Once again, I hope you come to your own conclusions now that you have heard both sides of the story. All the best.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 03:54, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Evidence that "Tijera" is the same as "Chilena" in Spanish

1. CASTAÑÓN RODRÍGUEZ, Jesús (Glossary of Football Terms used in America, 1998):
   1. Chilena: s. Hisp. Len. fut. Remate o despeje del balón con el cuerpo en el aire en posición paralela al suelo y en cuya ejecución el cruce de las piernas recuerda a las dos hojas de una tijera. Sin. tijereta. Translation: Strike or defensive kick of the ball with the body in the air in a position parallel to the ground, and whose execution resembles the blades of scissors. Synonym = Tijereta (Scissory kick)
   2. Tijera: s. Len. fut. Remate o despeje del balón con el cuerpo en el aire en posición paralela al suelo y en cuya ejecución el cruce de las piernas recuerda a las dos hojas de una tijera. Sin. chilena. Translation: Strike or defensive kick of the ball with the body in the air in a position parallel to the ground and whose execution resembles the blades of scissors. Synonym = Chilena (Chilean kick)
2. PUYAL ORTIGA, Joaquim M. (Aportación al estudio de las lenguas especiales: Terminología futbolística. Barcelona: Tesis de Licenciatura, 1972 (Dir. Prof. Marsá):
   1. Chilena: Determinado golpe que se da desde el aire al balón. La voz nació en Buenos Aires y el golpe en Chile. En [Perú] se le denomina "Chalaca", en España "Tijereta". Translation: Determined hit which is given in the air to the ball. The name was born in Buenos Aires, and the hit in Chile. In Peru it is called "chalaca" (chalacan strike), and in Spain "tijereta" (scissory kick).
   2. Tijera: Golpear el balón desde el aire con un pie tras haber amagado con el otro. En Hispanoamérica conocen este golpe por "Chilena", en otros lugares por "Chalaca". Translation: Hitting the ball in the air with one foot after having held back the other. In Latin America, it is known as "chilena" (Chilean kick), and in other places as Chalaca (Chalacan strike).
   3. Tijereta: Tijera. Translation: Scissor (kick)
3. DEA (Seco, Manuel, Olimpia Andrés y Gabino Ramos. Diccionario del español actual. Madrid: Aguilar, 1999):
   1. Chilena (Fút): Remate o despeje que se realiza cruzando las piernas, con el cuerpo en el aire en posición paralela al suelo. Translation: Strike or defensive kick that is done crossing the legs, with the body in the air in a parallel position to the ground.
   2. Tijera: Cruce de piernas al aire. Translation: Crossing of the legs in the air.
   3. Tijereta: Tijera. Scissor (kick).
4. DUE (Moliner, María. Diccionario de uso del español. 2a ed. Madrid: Gredos, 1998 [1966]):
   1. Chilena: f. DEP. En fútbol, disparo hecho de espaldas a la portería contraria levantando las piernas con un movimiento de tijera. Translation: In football, a shot done while backwards to the goal with the legs raised making a scissor movement (shearing movement).
   2. Tijera: 4 f. DEP. En el fútbol, patada que se da al balón en el aire cruzando las piernas. Translation: In football, kick which is given to a ball in the air with the legs crossed.
5. NOMDEDEU RULL (PhD), (Peer-Reviewed Thesis and Dictionary of Football Terms from the University of Barcelona Page 166):
   1. Chilena: f. V. tijera.
   2. Tijera: Lanzamiento de espaldas a porteria o despeje del balon de la porteria propia que, en el aire, con la espalda paralela al suelo y haciendo pasar el balon por encima de la cabeza del propio jugador que lo realiza, dibuja el movimiento de tijeras en el aire. SIN. Chilena, Tijereta. Translation: Backwards throw towards the goal or defensive kick outside the goal which, in the air, with the back parallel to the ground and passing the ball overhead the player that makes the move, drawing the movement of scissors in the air. Synonym: Chilena, Tijereta.
   3. Tijereta: f. V. tijera.