User talk:Cerebralix

Regarding "Burial Doll" in Asura Cryin'

Actually, if it's Burial, they commonly would use ブ (bu) instead of ベ (be). And ベリアル is the Japanese version of Belial, although I do see some people uses ベリアル as burial. I might be wrong, so I did a little research on internet, and every Asura Cryin' related translations uses Berial Doll. So I think it should be left as Berial. (75.157.178.48 (talk) 02:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC))

Thanks for commenting on my page! Please remember to log in next time though, as it is only polite to do so in these kinds of instances... unless you have a reason to be hiding.

At this point is appropriate to enter into a little linguistic discussion, so please bear with me.

To address your observations about the word "burial" in Japanese, they do not normally appear as you have stated. The impulse to use ブ(bu) over ベ(be) is a normal bias from a person coming from an English speaking background, and this is one of the common pitfalls for foreign speakers attempting to use Japanese syllabaries. The Japanese ブ sound is unfit for the "bu" phoneme that appears in the English word "burial". Instead, if you were a native Japanese speaker, and were coining the word from English, you would use the kana べ as this is a much closer (even automatic) fit for the phoneme in question to be adapted.

The problem with using ブ is obvious to any fluent or native speaker of Japanese. Actually, we have two big problems with using "bu" as you think it should be used. First is the case of the silent vowel: the "u" of "bu" often, if not almost always, becomes silent in constructing foreign words (or onomatopoeia) unless extended or immediately followed by another "vowel" sound. Consider common words like ブレイク (break), ブリック　(brick), ブラウン (brown), ブレス (bless), ブリザード (blizzard),　or even proper nouns like ブリアルモン (Brialmont, a place), ブリン (Blyn, a name), and ブリー (Brie, a type of cheese), etc. In all those cases and more, ブ will gain a silent "u".

Secondly, we don't coin words into Japanese by how the word looks but rather how it sounds. That's why when we coin words like pain we write パン　(pan), not パイン　(pain). That is why when differences occur, such as with words like angel and halo, it reflects the accent of the word's source; "halo" for example will differ in kana depending on whether you're taking the word from American English or from an Australian English accent. Using ブ is fine if you want to write a word like "bull" in kana because that's the matching sound. You cannot use ブ to write "bun" because the phoneme has now changed, and in this case it now sounds like "ba" - and rightly, the kana would be バン　(bann). Because each kana corresponds to only one sound, unlike words constructed with "Roman" letters, as a native speaker you'll automatically gravitate towards the kana that matches the sound you're looking for. The only way a Japanese speaker will "make a mistake" is if they don't know how the romanized word is pronounced properly to begin with, and that's why words like "saber" have several kana associated with them.

Your argument that ベリアル is the Japanese version of Belial has merit in that ベリアル does show up as kana for it. However, be aware that many words will have the same or similar kana used for them. Again, this is because of how they sound to the Japanese speaker. Observe such words as throw/slow (スロー), free/flee (フリー), know/no (ノー), sign/sine (サイン), site/sight (サイト), etc. and you very quickly get the picture. Now, note that in your very own example, Belial, the sound of the first syllable: "be" in that word is the same sound that shows up in the "bu" of burial, and NOT the "bu" of "bull". To write "bull" in kana you would rightly use ブ, not ベ. Similarly, to write "bug" in kana you would write バグ (bagu) and NOT the ブグ(bugu) that your logic would suggest.

Therefore, I categorically reject your claim that "they would commonly use ブ" unless you were talking about people that were ignorant of native Japanese conventions. In the words of a wise, yet fictional professor: TPOを弁えろ！　(TPO wo wakimaero, roughly "Learn some TPO!", with TPO being the appropriate protocol for the Time, Place, and Occasion being addressed).

As for the source material you mentioned in your research to verify your claim, I cast doubt on their credibility in general. Fansubs as source material should be used with reservation unless you are a fluent or native speaker of the language itself, for the obvious reason that you cannot verify any claims or conventions used by those sources, nor legally verify the sources themselves. Simply because a large number of fan-translations using a certain convention does not make it any more correct than if a grand majority of people voted the sky was actually pink, unless the sky is in fact pink. Fan translations (fan work in general, I suppose) likewise are not particularly held publicly accountable for anything and this limits their ultimate trustworthiness in any scenario. That a certain group of fan-subbers did not understand all of the above does not speak very highly of their ability to handle the language.

A final word for all of this is: context. Context, context, context. That way the translator can avoid the folly of narcissistic interpretation. What and who is Belial? Is he discussed extensively or even mentioned in passing as an entity in the work itself (Asura Cryin')? We have few, if any at all, indication of this. Nor do we even have an indication that Belial himself matters; nothing about Belial's traits and description is even a good fit for how the original work portrays the Asura Machina system. On the other hand, we have every indication that these were "sacrificial dolls" that were for all other practical purposes good as dead, with the Asura Machina serving as their tomb. This topic, the work itself addresses and in detail. The original text, for heaven's sake, explicitly uses the Japanese word for "burial". There is no question about that at all, only the people wanting to propagate misinformation and their own egos perhaps benefit from insisting on the "Belial" interpretation. Cerebralix (talk) 00:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)