User talk:Golumbuss

Stettin/Szczecin

sorry lysy ther was no polnish minorty in Stettin existing before 1945, thats wrong.--Golumbuss 14:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe not before 1939, but certainly before 1945 as the Nazis relocated a number of Poles there for forced labour. --Lysy^talk 14:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well that might be (1000 or 2000 in the Stettiner Vulkan AG shipping yards) but they were not permant inhabitnts with property there. The polnish people which live there right know, live entirely on stolen property of the prewar 350,000 german inhabitants. These act of ethnical cleansing should be clearly pointed out in the city history. Because its historically unique in its dimension in Europe. Sorry don´t get me wrong I am not anti polnish but this must be sayed. --Golumbuss 17:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, how do you know they were not permanent inabitants ? Were they supposed to be relocated somewhere else later ? As for "stolen property" accusation, I assume you know that the town was ruined by previous airraids of the allies, and what remained was taken by either Germans or Russians. As for ethnic cleansing, the Germans were expelled in line with the Potsdam Agreement. --Lysy^talk 18:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well airraids were carried out against nearly all german cities, but this doens´t change the legal land ownership. How I know that they were not permanet inhabitants, well they was no polnish miniority in all census of the at least last 200 years before 1945. And there is also no indication that this was the case before this times were the prusian census was held. The fact that it was an ethnical cleansing has no thing to do with the potsdam agreement. The victors can not redefine basic humanitarin principles (den hague landwar convention of 1907). It was a polnish warcrime supported by the allies. Thats a fact. For the same shit Churhill and Stalin, Bierut etc. would in our days end in front of the den Hague tribunal. Thats relatily clear. Whats the difference to the actions carried out in the bosnian civil war. there is none. Sorry these are crimes agianst the humanity. What is the problem for the polnish side to stay to thier crimes thats the only longtime realistic way out of this problem. Its not possible to hide that in the long run, no educated person believs that outside of poland.--Golumbuss 21:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Come on, you cannot be serious talking about "legal land ownership" of a country that lost its territory. Do you think that the Poles that were expelled from Eastern Poland and settled in Szczecin got any compensation of their lost property in the East from Soviet Union ? Speaking about legal ownership seems especially strange if you consider that Germans would simply murder millions of civilians to get their property during WW2. Szczecin itself was of special value to the Soviets because they used the seaport to send German machinery and other goods to Russia. That's one of the reasons why the Soviets did not hand over the port to Poland until 1955. Now, it would be interesting to read some sources of how and where to were the Germans from Szczecin expelled in 1950s. --Lysy^talk 21:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

well first of all over 16 million germans were expulsed from the east 2,2 million were murdered during that process. around 1,7 to 2 million poles were expulsed from eastern poland, the mayority of the colonits came from central poland (just grabbing the land). it was not a problem for poland to resetle the poles from the east inside of the historical poland, because I know millions of poles died during ww2 under german and sowjet occupation. It was not a space question. and many of the colonits in stettin were expulsed by the polnish army from the south east of poland during the operation vistula in 1947. these people were ukrainians. another example of ethniical cleansing done by the polnish army. Why cannt the poles not openly stay to the dark sides of polnish history, sorry defending ethnical cleansing is far away from a european value consensus.--Golumbuss 08:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe you're oversimplifying stating that this was "not a space problem". Poland lost a number of large towns, like Lwow, Wilno that were taken by the Soviets or Warsaw that was completely destroyed by Germans. The surviving urban population had to go somewhere, and Stettin or Breslau were some of the very few options. I think it's also often been assumed in Poland that since Germans decided to start the war in the first place and violated all human right, they are the ones responsible for everything that followed later. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to collaborate on both "bright" and "dark" side of history of any nation, including Poland or Germany. I have started a number of articles on dark pages of Polish history, including Zgoda labour camp or Central Labour Camp Jaworzno and have contributed to many others like Operation Wisła. What I'd need however, would be some credible sources on history of expulsion of Germans from Szczecin that the article could be based upon. I'm afraid I don't have access to much, as the story is not very popular in Poland. Would you have some English-language secondary sources about this ? --Lysy^talk 10:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Well the ideas for the west- expansion of poland reaching back to panslawic ideas first written in 1808. The expulsion of the german population was a long time goal of polnish ultra nationalism. These ideas were for example put in to public by the polnish minister for forign affairs in 1921. So the extremists just saw a good oportunity for thier extrem plans in 1945. It was not the need for space behind these acts. Take the example of other civiliazid states such as france. In western france were enormous war destrutions but they never came on the idea to expulse the 2,5 million predomiantly german speaking populatiob of alsace-lorraine because of a need for space. the whole argumentation goes in the wrong direction. The polnish nationalistc idea of a west expansion was the driving force for the mass expulsions. And if it comes to the Potsdam agreement the argreed line there was not the Oder-neisse line it was a different line a bit more east. Especially the us goverment puseeh in the agreement for a finacial compensation of the expulsed population. Poland has never filled these paragraph of the agreement.In opposition to the agreement poland was creating facts on the ground the oder- neisse line and no compensation. thre is and there was no moral justifivation for that what the polnish goverment has done. It was an extrem civilation break unique in its dimensins in the european history.

Panslavism idea was supported by Russians, not by Poles, who generally opposed it. As for your French example, I'm sure you know that unlike Poland, France did not fight Nazis but collaborated with them for most of the war time. As for the expulsions of Germans after WW2, I would hold the Poles responsible for this only if Poland was a soveregin nation then. Obviously it was not, as its fate was decided in Yalta, the territory was controlled by the Soviet army, Polish government was replaced by a Soviet constructed communist government and many Poles were killed, tortured, imprisoned or sent to Soviet Union camps after WW2 and throughout 1950s. As for Potsdam agreed border line, it's a matter of interpretation, I believe, as the agreement was not clear about this. This is also the reason why Polish administration was arriving to and leaving Stettin for a couple of times in 1945, as the interpretation changed. As for Polish nationalistic movement in 1920s and 1930s, I consider it to be very harmful in many ways, particularly because of Poland's troubled relations with its neighbours. As for Polish government in 1946, you probably know that there were two of them: the Soviet backed government and the Polish government in exile. --Lysy^talk 20:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Well I was just recently reading a newspaper article about the polnish forign policy in 20 and 30. the author there came to the conclusion that the pilsudski goverment was playing a dangerous game in forign politics. the idea of the polnish westexpansion to the oder-neisse line was written down in different mail exchanges between the polnish forign affairs minister and the french forign affairs minister Vansittard. so (citation: in the memo of Vansittard) this idea was not new in 1945, it was a longtime goal of the pilsudski goverment before ww2. I think the polnish goverment past 1945 was just using a varity of explantions to thier on people and to the forign public, like the popular space thesis, to justify thier actions, but didn´t came back on the ultra nationalistic core of these ideas.--Golumbuss 20:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this is oversimplification. The political, social and overall situation in Poland was very complex after WW2, probably not less complex than in Germany at that time. Some people think that in fact as a country, Poland was the biggest looser of the WW2. As for Polish ultranationalism at this period, I think it can be somewhat understood that Poles did not sympathise with Germany after WW2 and probably some wanted some revenge or expected reimbursement. Actually, Germany never paid reparations for the damage they made in Poland. --Lysy^talk 21:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Well i think poland was a winner in ww2 financially. And the reparation question. I mean poland was not innocent in the development leading into www2. And reparrations between states are possible but the confiscation of private property without compensation is today and was at that time forbidden (see den hague landwar convention of 1907). And on the other side it was not very smart to take parts of the historic german core land and expulse millions of Germans. It was clear that this act of warcrime would poisen the relations to germany for more than just centuries. It has brought poland in a very difficult political situation in case of any possible political confilct in europe in the future. I think the reason for stalin behind that was to bind poland on the sovjetunion, make depend of the security of the soevjet armee. It was, to speak in greek mytology a Danae present, a poisend present. To take that present has made the geopolitical situation for poland more difficult than before. Reparations doesn t bring peace, every conflict has to sides nobody is completly innocent. history has shown that for example in the German-french war 1870/71 germany took reparations from france, France took reparations from germany in the versailles Peace 1919/1920. Nothing of that brought paece for a longer period. the idea of some politicians the expense of a war would be paid by someone else is bullshit. a conflict cost money on both sides and usually each side has to pay thier expenses. poland risked these conflict by annexing large predomiantly german areas after ww1. This border was never recognized by germany and many other easteuropean states. It was a riski way for poland to do so. it was logic that it would in the end lead in to conflict. Poland was not the innocent victim of its nighbours. The risk was increased after attacking russia , lithunania and czechesslowaki in the 1920´s. To gain the wilna area, East poland, the cieszyn area and arawa areas. The only stabile forign relation was with rumania in the south-east. Sorry that was not a peaceful and realistic (based on the strategic ressources) foringn politic.--Golumbuss 07:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course it was on purpose that Soviets gave German lands to Poland and then allowed the border question to remain open. The reason was to keep Poland dependent on Russia as the Soviet army in East Germany and in Poland was primary warrant for maintining the status quo. It was the kind of a gift that cannot be refused. It was also in Soviet interest to make sure that the relations between Poland and Germany remain unfriendly for as long as possible. However I don't think that blaming WW2 on Poland is reasonable. If you move back in history to 1920s, somebody could also ask why did Germany start WW1 or why did Prussia occupy Poland in 1772, 1793 and 1795 in the first place. This is beyond doubt that WW2 was started because of German aggresive and militaristic policies and expansionism. --Lysy^talk 09:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry germany didn´t started ww1 (thats an historically wrong, allied pov stuff). ww1 was started by chain of events. All involvet states didn´t stop this chain of events. Germany didn´t started it, thats wrong.--Golumbuss 16:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Every war is a result of a chain of events of course, and WW1 was no exception here. However some countries attack other countries, and some defent themselves then. The countries that declared war or attacked first, are the ones that start a war. In case of WW1 it were Austria and Germany. I understand that it may be not nice to acknowledge this, and that Germans may seek some confort by saying that WW1 was started by a "chain of events" and WW2 was started by "the Nazis" not by Germans, but the obious facts prove otherwise. It may be unfortunate that Germany had wrong leaders in the wrong times but simple facts are beyond any dispute, regardless if they are pleasant or not. --Lysy^talk 18:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Well but the radical right wing groups in Germany came to power because of the situation ofter ww1. I think that the mayority of the germans saw the attack on poland and the regaing of the former german provinces as an act of o if historical justice. So I not talking about these crazy racial stuff carried out on traditional polnish land in the so called Wartheland and the generalgovernement. Í don´t think the mayority of the people supported that if they had known it entirely.There was conplete media control in Germany and people could not trvel in these areas easily. there was kind of a so called polcie border betwenn germany and the annexed areas. People who wanted to cross that line needed a special paper. --Golumbuss 09:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC) I can search for some sources to Stettin history (expulsions) the problem is that the must sources are in german. but I will see if a can find something. Ah another source to get an idea how this was done is to check in the polnish internet for the polnish bierut laws (a number of laws issued in 1945 and 1946 which reguled the expulsions by the polnish adminstration.

Thanks, please do try. I've tried to find some reasonable Polish sources on this, but was so far unsuccessful. Obviously the topic is not very popular in Poland. I'm not sure if the regulations of Polish administration could be used, as these are primary sources, and we'd be doing original research then, contrary to WP rules (see WP:OR). I'll keep looking though. --Lysy^talk 20:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi lysy again I just read your good article about the zgoda camp. its very honourable that you was writing that. Do you have some more information about the large polnish forced work camps for germans in Lambsdorf (silesia), Tost (silesia) and Potulitz south west of Bromberg.

--Golumbuss 11:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Not honourable at all, these are just facts. Whole male populations of Silesian villages were often taken to the camps with no questions asked. I'll try to look up for some more info. It would help to know what are the current Polish names of Lambsdorf and Tost. --Lysy^talk 20:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Toszek =Tost (uppersilesia)

the camp was open from May 1945 till december 1945 5000 inhabitants, 3000 dead. Place: A former institution for mentaly disabelt people.

Lambinowice = lambsdorf

Potulice = Potulitz --Golumbuss 21:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Potulice

I've started a stub for Central Labour Camp Potulice. I thought you might want to contribute there. --Lysy^talk 18:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)