User talk:JCarriker/Archive1

Hello J, welcome to Wikipedia! I noticed that you replaced Image:US regions.gif with Image:US regions.jpg. I'm not going to comment on texas because I English and no nothing of these things but please be careful when uploading files, that you do so in the correct file format. You've replaced a gif with a jpg. This swells the image size considerably and degrades it. Thw worst of both worlds :-( See

If you changed the image to a jpeg because your editor does not support gif then see if it supports png instead { our preferred format for maps. I will be deleting your image in a moment. Dont let this small hiccup put you off though. (if you read the above links you'll see that I made every mistake in the book , which is why I make a point of helping newbies)

If you need any other help try:

Wikipedia:Help
Village pump
Or ask me at my talk page User_talk:Theresa knott

Hi J,

First, just to be certain, I believe that you want to change the image Image:US regions.gif.

I personally have no objections if you wish to use a different map that has only 4 regions rather than the 5 in the aforementioned map. If you do, you should rework all the pages that make use of the US regions.gif pic as well as all pages that refer to the Southwest United States region article. You can determine these articles by examining the what links here page associated with each article. Cheers, Sfmontyo 16:26, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

JCarriker,

I realize what you're trying to do with changing the regions of the US to match the government's... but I think that some discussion is warranted before obliterating all references to the Southwest, Mid-Atlantic, etc. While the government may break up the country in that way, the majority of the population uses Southwest, Mid-Atlantic, etc. You would be changing the meanings of many articles if you changed those references (like you did in the Dallas and DART articles), and going against years of historical use and generally accepted terms and customs.

I would suggest that you make a different map of the US with the 4 "official" regions, not simply replace the map of the "traditional" regions. Then create new articles for the official regions and retain the articles about Southwest and Mid-Atlantic etc. with references that those are commonly used but unofficial terms (like some of those articles have). Then add links to the official region names.

I think this would be simpler, more helpful and understandable to the general public, and a lot easier than facing the tide of resistance you'll face when changing all references to the Southwest, Mid-Atlantic, Midwest, etc.

Thanks, Jfitts 16:16, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I always have wanted to discuss this as I knew that it would be controversial. Also I have ridden DART and it is very nice! First of all it is not my intention to obliterate the Southwest or all references to it. The four regions should come into play only when broad generalizations are necessary. Otherwise their should be a listing of the states or parts of states that apply. If the meaning southwest was broadened to include California, as it sometimes is, then DART was not the first light rail in the southwest. Even if Texas were placed into the four region system, Atlanta would still have beaten it by two years. It was however the first light rail in Texas and therefore I changed it to Texas.

Now as to the history of US regions the southwest region, as it is applied on WP, is not historic but came into vogue in the mid-twentieth century. As late as the 1940’s both Arkansas and Louisiana were considered “southwestern states.” In many of the Articles include Nevada, Utah, and Colorado as southwestern states. In it’s broadest sense the 19th century included: Arkansas, Arizona, California, Colorado, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, and Utah. This came about as the traditional boundary between east and west in 19th Century geography was the Mississippi River. All except about a fifth, including Baton Rouge and New Orleans in that eastern fifth, of Louisiana were west of the river. The concept of the “West” region as it is portrayed here is not even in context with the southwest region. By looking in any encyclopedia that has this display you would see that the “West” region is subdivided into the Mountain and Pacific regions. In this scheme it is likely that the south would be called Southeast and occasionally Kentucky and West Virginia would be place in the Mid West while Virginia would go with the Mid Atlantic states.

Also the South Central region is not listed and what of the Pacific Northwest? If WP keeps this current grid of regions soon people will start carving and gerrymandering, the map to create new or should I say old regions. These regions are set in stone, there is no debate about who goes where because the government has already decided. If we decided to use the regional statistics the Census Bureau compiles, we would find we couldn’t because the southwest has been carved out of the South and West and New England (which if any region is historic it is this one) and the Mid Atlantic are carved out of the Northeast, the data is worthless.

I’m not saying that these regions should be deleted, but should be treated as unofficialregions that in some instances share cultures. However they should be listed with other regions that the state is or was in for example.

Texas is a state in the US South. Texas is some times considered in the Southwest or South Central Regions. In the 19th Century Texas was briefly part of the Trans-Mississippi Region.

If Wiki adopted this it would be easier and more accurate for everyone. Please post on the US states disscusion page concernig this topic.

If you didn't know that I had already posted a disscussion and reposted your suggestion there. Please feel free to join in there!

JCarriker

I would love to have your help on Wikipedia:WikiProjects Ethnic Groups. I'm not sure what link you had trouble following; everything I can think of works fine for me. Let me know where the problem is for you & I'll try to fix it (or maybe you can work it out and fix it yourself). Jmabel 20:09, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Looks like there was a caching problem. I believe I've fixed it. Link should work now. Jmabel 21:23, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'd be glad to try to help out on your US regions thing, but you don't seem to have started a WikiProject. Or am I missing something? Jmabel 21:23, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

As for the Marshall thing, you never said that it was in text. However, having the picture of Marshall as opposed to Houston and Dallas in the East Texas article suggests that it was being portrayed as more important to me.

When I see pictures in such articles, I am looking for a picture that is obvious giveaway to a place (E.g. the Eiffel Tower to Paris, or the Parthenon to Athens) - Many people around the world have heard of Houston and Dallas, but few know of Marshall. WhisperToMe

Thanks for your response, WhisperToMe on my talk page, it confirms my previous assumptions. I wanted clarification of your feeling and actions before I laid out a detailed response to your edit. I have several concerns about your edit and one complaint.

Concerns:

1. Dallas and the Metroplex consider themselves, North Texas not East Texas and the reference to the city is inaccurate. I will refer only to Houston from now on in my post.

2. Houston is not the only economic center in East Texas and I think that is misguided to assume that it is. Houston may be by far the largest city in East Texas, but it has virtually no influence on the northern half of the region which is dominated by the quarter million people in the Tyler and Longview-Marshall GSA’s. East Texas has a population of almost 9 million, roughly 5 million of that lives in the Houston area; almost half do not.

3. Houston may be more well known than Marshall, but it is not as obscure as you say it is. Hundreds of millions of people may have heard of Houston, but millions have still heard of Marshall. Each year three quarters of a million tourists visit the city and view, among other things, the Old Courthouse. The city has run ads on the major networks in both Los Angeles and New York, further exposing the building. The city’s festivals have been featured on Oprah and the Food Network, to name a few more media outlets. The building has been featured on the cover of Texas Highways, and coming to see it lighted at Christmas was #12 on Texas Monthly’s list of Fifty Things Every Texan Should Do, Houston’s Juneteenth Celebration were 8th. (Dallas had no listing above Marshall.)

Marshall native, Bill Moyers won an Emmy for his nationally televised documentary "Marshall, Texas: Marshall, Texas," the first installment of a series on 20th Century American History. (Incidentally that Emmy was and will be displayed in the Old Courthouse, when it’s restoration is complete along with the clothes that Lady Bird and Lyndon Johnson wore to his inaugural ball, and George Foreman’s Olympics medals and World Championship Belt.) The State of Texas thinks the building is representative of the Piney Woods region, including the northern portion of the Houston Metro Area, because they put the courthouse on the introduction page to the region in the official travel guide. Marshall is also listed on page 11, titled the Seven Regions of Texas; larger cities such as Longview, Lufkin, or the Woodlands are not. So size is not necessarily a criterion of either fame nor importance.

4. I chose Marshall’s picture not because I thought it was the most influential city in East Texas, although it is not Podunk Hollow, but because I felt it was a good representation of the area as a whole. It is the smaller but senior partner in the third most populous metro area in East Texas. It has a good mix of the qualities that define East Texas, urban, suburban, and rural. East Texas is “distinct cultural and political” region in Texas and these are the qualities at which Marshall excels.

Culturally Marshall has given America; Lady Bird Johnson, Bill Moyers, and James Farmer. Farmer organized the first sit ins and the Freedom Rides, without him or Marshall those events may not have taken place. Melvin B. Tolson is considered one of the greatest African-American poets, he taught and practiced his work at Wiley College in Marshall. While giving a performance in Marshall a little known performer, named Maurice ‘‘Barrymore’’ was shot and wounded in Marshall, creating a news sensation that rocketed him to national prominence. His descendants have created an acting dynasty and include; John, Lionel, Ethel, and Drew Barrymore.

Marshall has been a state capital and had the Civil War not ended when it did, it might have been a national one too. Marshall has produced two Texas Governors (Houston Four) and one of the founding fathers of the city, Isaac Van Zandt, negotiated Texas’ entry into the union. The Starr family was one of the most powerful families in the state for decades and their home is now a designated state historic site. The city’s political influence is not limited to the past, in 2000 the delegates representing Northeast Texas at both the Democratic and Republican National Conventions were both from Marshall. The Electoral College representing Texas has had a Marshallite in it for as long as I have been following politics. In the closest election in U.S. History, the President of Marshall’s Chamber of Commerce cast her College vote for George W. Bush. The past two Congressmen for TX District One have been from Marshall. Max Sandlin, the current congressman, is the House Minority Whip. As recently as 2003 the Democratic Party of Texas filed their challenge to redistricting at the Federal Court in Marshall, because it was the "most influential" city in the oldest congressional district that was being divided. The Harrison County NAACP is one of the oldest and most important branches in the state.

I have listed these concerns because I do not feel that you have considered or were aware of these facts.

Complaints:

Please use more diplomatic and tact language when writing your edit synopsis. With your current language and actions it can be interpreted that you feel toward Marshall, exactly how you felt Houston was slighted, but rather than an omission it would be a direct action and a deliberate act of removal. Marshall is also the only city other than Houston which has a detailed article to link to, and other than Deer Park the only pictures. I had originally planned to add a picture of Houston’s Skyline and I was looking for one that included Buffalo Bayou. The image of some of the America’s tallest buildings rising out of a bayou is an image I felt would best portray East Texas as the first pic. I was in the process of looking for a specific picture, when your edit occurred.

I enjoy collaborating with people to write articles and feel that multi-author articles have a better quality. I will wait a while before editing the article for your response; but I will resist any effort to portray Marshall, Nacogdoches, Port Arthur, or any other city in East Texas or the world as inferior to another.

Hmm... I've never heard of Marshall before myself. Also, with the interwiki links, keep in mind that usually, its not good to make an article using Roman script in Wiki's that use non-Roman langauges like Arabic and Japanese. Try to get the name in that alphabet/script, and if you cant, ask someone who knows the language.

By the way, you need to create archives of old talk :). Cut chunks of it and move it to something like User talk:JCarriker/Archive0. WhisperToMe 05:06, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Also, I never implied that Marshall was a "bad" place. Using "good" and "bad" is a subjective term, anyways. Prominence reflects how well known a city is. Maybe Marshall is known throughout North America, but very few people in the UK, Australia, Hong Kong, New Zealand, etc know where it is. WhisperToMe 06:19, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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