User talk:Locatorsjoy

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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anthrosexual[edit]

Since you are part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, i would appreciate it if you could voice your opinion on the article Anthrosexual, which is currently up for deletion.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 06:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

This article, in general, is significantly important in that it provide an expansion on information into sexuality in humans and well as providing fodder for discourse. It should NOT be deleted but instead should be expanded upon.

The article Anthrosexual is much better when it starts with pansexuality since that term, "pansexuality" is used predominantly throughout.

Our society tries to pretend that it is bigendered, ie. male and female, but in reality, it is a gendered continuum. Gender is a social construction and as such is in a state of continual flux. As soon as we determine a specific definition for what constitutes gender, it will be out-of-date due to the constant change reinforced by discourse.

Has pansexuality been used as a term in any peer reviewed articles? I will look around and see what I can find.

    I am new at this and don't know the rules or the set up, don't know how to make it into sections or keep the formatting from my word processor, so I'm sure it's all written up wrongLocatorsjoy (talk)
    The use of pansexual, while predominantly found in references to transgenderedness and homosexuality, is used with a variety of topics and appears truly to hold the meaning of being attracted to people regardless of genders. Search of the word “pansexual” used found 67 hits in ProQuest, 449 in EBSCOhost, 19 in Sage, 3 in Science Direct, 3 in Ulrich, and 27 hits in Ebrary. See the following for specific examples.Locatorsjoy (talk) 00:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

[Searches for use of “pansexual”] ProQuest: found in 67 items Examples: Wayne, L. D. (2002). Bisexuality and agency. Review of Transformations, 13(2), 109. Retrieved June 22, 2008, from ProQuest Education Journals database. (Document ID: 506045981).

Johnson, J. E. (1996). Gay soul: Finding the heart of Gay spirit and nature. Journal of Men's Studies, 4(3), 315. Retrieved June 22, 2008, from ProQuest Psychology Journals database. (Document ID: 506105391).

Passariello McHaelen, R. (2006). Bridges, barriers, and boundaries. Child Welfare, 85(2), 407-38. Retrieved June 22, 2008, from ProQuest Medical Library database. (Document ID: 1074459521). People whose who have the ability to be attracted to members of various genders: bisexual, two-spirit (which comes from some Native or First People traditions and, in various contexts, has been used to describe people who have same sex attractions and people who take on cross-gendered roles within the community), pansexual (people who can be attracted to people regardless of their genders);

Looy, H. & Bouma, H. III. (2005). The nature of gender: Gender identity in persons who are intersexed or transgendered. Journal of Psychology and Theology, 33(3), 166-178. Retrieved June 22, 2008, from ProQuest Psychology Journals database. (Document ID: 913087861). "However, the notion that gender identity is always either female or male, and the task in the case of a person who is intersexed is simply to determine which gender identity is likely to emerge, is far too simplistic. Persons who are intersexed do not always clearly identify with just one gender. For example, Deborah Brown, founder of the evangelical Christian Intersex Support Group International (see is a true hermaphrodite. She was raised as a boy, married a woman and, with difficulty, fathered two children. In adulthood she increasingly felt she was denying a key part of her identity, her femininity. After Deborah's wife died, she decided to live as a woman, and had her male organs removed. Another person-a pastor-who did not realize he had an intersex condition (Klinefelter's syndrome) until later in life, said that realizing he was both male and female explained years of puzzlement about his gender identity, and helped him to feel whole for the first time. He now experiences his gender identity as both male and female, as "pansexual" (personal communication). Other persons who are intersexed also feel that the female/male categories of gender identity do not work for them; they argue for a 'third' gender or a genderless state.

Abstracts 161-364. (2004). Sexuality and Disability, 22(1), 3-109. Retrieved June 22, 2008, from ProQuest Psychology Journals database. (Document ID: 943918351). "The Wet Spot is a non-profit [501(c)7] membership-based community center. It is guided by a 12-member board of directors and is operated almost exclusively on volunteer effort. The vision of the Wet Spot is to foster the development of our local sex-positive culture by providing supportive, comfortable, and reliable meeting space for the full range of Seattle’s sex-positive cultures and communities. We have a large circulating library of sexual books, videos, and magazines. In order to support our area’s emerging and evolving sex-positive culture, and providing a safe gathering place for the communities that comprise it, we host a variety of events both for nonmembers (workshops, support groups, classes) and our members in our fully renovated 4400 square foot space. Our member’s only events are as diverse as our membership. On Wednesdays we have our dropin nights, which are a chance for Wet Spot members to drop by, chat with our director, socialize, enjoy the library, and maybe use the play space. The Grind, our Thursday night dance, is a great venue for techno music and BDSM and sex play. Fridays are varied; two are sex-focused (rather than BDSM-focused) parties, and the other nights are men-only and women-only play parties. Saturdays are pansexual BDSM fetish parties. Sundays have a variety of events, from a “Bondage is the Point” party, massage nights, and other special events. The poster session will detail the Wet Spot structure and philosophy, and feature a calendar of events and brief descriptions of the various communities, illustrated with tasteful photos."

Williams, C. J., & Weinberg, M. S. (2003). Zoophilia in men: A study of sexual interest in animals. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 32(6), 523-35. Retrieved June 22, 2008, from ProQuest Medical Library database. (Document ID: 532774861). cited: Lenius, S. (2001). Bisexuals and BDSM: Bisexual people in a pansexual community. Journal of Bisexuality, I, 69-78.

Wayne, L. D. (2002). Bisexuality and agency. Review of Transformations, 13(2), 109. Retrieved June 22, 2008, from ProQuest Education Journals database. (Document ID: 506045981). "Most students find queer theory's critique very compelling due to the fact that it reverberates multilaterally across the more progressive curriculum of the disciplines in our current academic moment. However, although I carefully craft a plan of reading and discussion in order to journey this far into the theoretical territory of bisexuality the real work has only just begun. It is all too easy for bisexuality to become subsumed within queerness and disappear, as Christopher James points out in his piece "Denying Complexity: The Dismissal and Appropriation of Bisexuality in Queer, Lesbian, and Gay Theory" (1996). At the same time, bisexual theorists who are sitting at the juncture of the problematic delineated by [Eve Kosofsky Sedgewick] are well aware of the issues that arise should they rescue bisexuality from the queer abyss with a return to the proposition of a bisexual identity. For this reason, Paula Rust first suggests that we replace the term "bisexual" with "pansexual" (1992) but later proposes that bisexuality be understood as a location in relation to others in a changing sexual landscape (1996), while Ruth Goldman remarks that insofar as gay and lesbian concerns set the agenda for queerness bisexuals are actually "queer queers" (1996). The contemporary challenge in teaching on bisexuality is thus finding a way to render it an object of enquiry without either allowing its dissolution into the ether of queerness or ossifying it as an identity in concordance with the timeworn heteronormative scale. Diaz, R. M., Ayala, G., Bein, E., Henne, J., & Martin, B. V. (2001). The impact of homophobia, poverty, and racism on the mental health of gay and bisexual Latino men: Findings from 3 to US cities. American Journal of Public Health, 91(6), 927-32. Retrieved June 22, 2008, from ABI/INFORM Global database. (Document ID: 73976838). Analyses of the weighted data yielded the following demographic profile for the population of men studied. Within the population of nonheterosexual men who attended Latino gay venues in Miami, New York, and Los Angeles, 54% (95% confidence interval [CI]=50.9%, 56.5%) self-identified as gay, 30% (95% CI=27.5%, 32.1 %) self-identified as homosexual, 15% (95% CI= 13.8%, 16.8%) self-identified as bisexual, and 1% (95% CI=0%, 1.3%) self-identified as "other" (e.g., "queer," "pansexual," or Joto," a Mexican equivalent of the word faggot). The overwhelming majority (72.2%; 95% CI=67.3%, 77.10/4) were immigrants, and about half of all immigrants (52.6%; 95% CI=46.7%, 58.5%) had been in the United States for 10 years or less. More than a third used exclusively or primarily the Spanish language in interacting with friends."

Monro, S. (2000). Theorizing transgender diversity: Towards a social model of health. Sexual and Relationship Therapy, 15(1), 33. Retrieved June 22, 2008, from ProQuest Psychology Journals database. (Document ID: 50954223). "Sexual orientation logically becomes problematized if genders are fluid, multiple or not male or female. Trans people have a variety of sexual orientations, with a few, such as David Harrison (in the San Francisco Chronicle, Autumn 1995) identifying themselves as pansexual as opposed to bisexual, because bisexual assumes two genders. Trans troubles sexual orientation on the individual level, leading some respondents to identify as several orientations at once at different times. It also destabilizes the categories of heterosexual, gay, lesbian or bisexual on a social level. As Kate More says, it disrupts the means by which sub/cultural membership and sexual attraction are communicated."

EBSCOhost (Academic Search Premier, Business Source Complete, CINAHL with Full Text, ERIC, International Security & Counter Terrorism Reference Center, Mental Measurements Yearbook, PsycARTICLES, PsycBOOKS, PsycINFO, Regional Business News, SocINDEX with Full Text, Tests in Print, Library, Information Science & Technology Abstracts, Business Source Premier): found in 449 items

Examples: Abdur-Rahman, A. I. (2006, summer). The strangest freaks of despotism: Queer sexuality in antebellum African American slave narratives. African American Review, 40(2), 223-237. Retrieved July 5, 2008 from EBSCOhost. "More than simply a condition of black women's experience under slavery, rape serves as a useful paradigm for assessing and describing the position and experience of black people in total under slavery's brutal regime. As Katz describes the sexual invert's participation in the sex acts of the putative other gender, Spillers refers to the "pansexual potential" of the slave that is caused by gender failure resulting from dehumanization in/and enslavement ("Mama's Baby" 474). Spillers's formulation speaks not to slaves' roaming and unspecified erotic urges but to their complete vulnerability to any number of invasions by both men and women of the master class; it comments on the comprehensive condition of black people in slavery as socially and sexually abject."

Alexander, L. B., & Miselis, S. D. (2007, Spring). Barriers to GLBTQ collection development and strategies for overcoming them. Young Adult Library Services, 5(3), 43-49. Retrieved July 4, 2008 from EBSCOhost. "There are often other terms associated with the GLBTQ label like the letter A which stands for “straight ally,” the letter I which stands for “intersex,” and the letter P which stands for “pansexual.”"

Allen, P. J. (1971, February). Extramarital relations (Book). American Sociological Review, 36(1), 165-166. Retrieved July 4, 2008 from EBSCOhost. "It begins with a chapter by Kirkendall and Rubin which summarizes sex over the life cycle. Together with Chapter 9 ("Sexual Life in the Later Years," also by Rubin) this chapter does a good job of putting sex in a life time perspective without falling into the Freudian trap of pansexuality nor the more conventional one of seeing sex as the special preserve of the teenager and youngish adult."

Atwood, J. D. (2006, October). Mommy’s little angel, Daddy’s little girl: Do you know what your pre-teens are doing? American Journal of Family Therapy, 34(5), 447-467. Retrieved July 4, 2008 from EBSCOhost. "There is probably no other time in history when sexuality has so pervasively permeated society. Turn on the TV and watch Sex in the City, E Channel, or Girls Gone Wild. Turn on the radio and listen to sexually explicit music. Open a magazine and read articles on sexuality, from Cosmopolitan and Playboy, to Time and/or New York Magazine. Recently, New York Magazine (Morris, 2006) touted the latest teen involvement labeled ambisexuality, the heteroflexible or pansexual teen—teens who partake in “cuddle groups” hugging, kissing, and more while all piled in a group; gay is “in” for both young men and women; and especially “fun” are two females “hooking up” with one male—whatever. Britney Spears has defined fashions for the increasingly younger age groups and parents cooperate by making these purchases."

Apter, E. (2004, Winter). Weaponized thought: Ethical militance and the group-subject. Grey Room, 14, 6-25. Retrieved July 4, 2008 from EBSCOhost. "Soldiers practice rape as a form of social control, but sexual punishment blurs into polymorphous pansexualism. Guyotat’s vivid scenes of interracial, cross-species, cross-gender, intergenerational copulation, prostitution, child abuse, and group sex offer a total eradication of the individual."

Bennett, D. (2005). Getting the Id to go shopping: Psychoanalysis, advertising, Barbie dolls, and the invention of the consumer unconscious. Public Culture, 17(1), 1-25. Retrieved July 4, 2008 from EBSCOhost. "On the other hand, civil libertarians, soon to be joined by feminists, were up in arms against MR following Packard’s revelations, which did seemingly irreparable damage to its reputation in the textbooks of American marketing theory—if not in much actual advertising practice—for the rest of the twentieth century. MR’s official demise seemed sealed in 1963 by the publication of Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique (1963), which acknowledged Dichter (“this most helpful of hidden persuaders”) and his institute’s archives as a prime source for its information. Friedan laid the blame for a disastrous return of patriarchal stereotypes of femininity in the 1940s squarely at the doors of the popularizers of applied psychoanalysis who pushed the barrow of Freud’s pansexualism and his anatomy-is destiny gender-essentialism in everything from marketing theory to anthropology to marriage guidance manuals."

Sage Collections (Criminology, Education, Psychology, Sociology): found in 19 items Examples: Elkins, R. (2005, July). Science, politics and clinical intervention: Harry Benjamin, transsexualism and the problem of heteronormativity. Sexualities, 8(3), 306-328. Retrieved July 5, 2008 from Sage Sociology Collection. "As a result of the influence of his formulation, it was not until 1984, for instance, that Dorothy Clare felt the need to coin the term ‘transhomosexuality’ (Clare, 1984) in recognition of the fact that many male to female transsexuals maintained sexual relationships with women after sex reassignment. More radically, it was not until 1991 that Sandy Stone wrote her germinal article (Stone, 1991) forcefully articulating a conceptualization of transsexuals as ‘outside the boundaries of gender’. The floodgates were then open for trans men to link transgender to revolutionary socialism (Feinberg, 1996); to radical lesbianism (Nataf, 1996); to radical body configurations and pansexualism (Volcano, 2000); and to the beginnings of a hitherto neglected transgender approach to class, race and masculinity (Volcano and Halberstam, 1999). Following a quite different stream of thought, Blanchard, from the late 1980s onwards (Blanchard, 1989), began to highlight the sexual motivation for many sex reassignments, a line of thought to be later popularized by Lawrence (1999a, 1999b) and Bailey (2003)."

Hall, T. (2007, October). Rent-boys, barflies, and kept men: Men involved in sex with men for compensation in Prague. Sexualities, 10(4), 457-472. Retrieved July 5, 2008 from Sage Sociology Collection. "Likewise, interviews with gay tourists in Prague failed to elicit consistent representations of Czech men as either hypermasculine or particularly feminine (or predominantly ‘tops’ or ‘bottoms’); instead they were contrasted favorably with Western gay men in terms such as ‘uninhibited’, ‘unpretentious’, and ‘friendly’. Western tourists perceive the image projected in locally produced (and internationally marketed and financed) gay pornography as a polymorphous (Bunzl, 2000: 85–90) and ‘natural’ pansexuality (Quin, 2005)."

Science Direct: found 3 items Examples: Mangano, G. (2008, April). T-03-0-10 Christian morality and sexuality: A social problem. Sexologies, 17(1), S70. Retrieved July 5, 2008 from Science Direct. "Conclusions: Despite the strong effort by domestic and international associations/organisations in supporting the idea of sexuality felt as aware and responsible choice, and claiming the need of effective strategies concerning the prevention of HIV virus, a lot of things are to do with the aim to overcome the accuses of Catholic Church to “pansexual” and materialist actual society."

Boom, J. (2008, April). T03-P-02 The philosophy of pansexuality. Sexologies, 17(1), S73. "The Theory of Pansexuality (including all modes of sexuality existing in humans prevailing permanently or occasionally), originated from the observation of the natural world and is a term internationally recognised by sexologists. The theory aims to challenge existing prejudices which can cause discrimination, marginalisation and serious disorders within society. People may be born with or may develop specific sexual tendencies which, if not socially damaging, should not be repressed. Our sexuality, like our feelings, can be directed in varying amounts and manners towards people of all sexual persuasions, ages, appearances, towards animals, inanimate objects or ourselves; even towards the living, dead and the imaginary. Where sex is considered sinful it may create internal conflict and sexual phobias. As all tendencies emerge from nature we cannot therefore avoid being a part of it. If a sexual tendency manifests itself then surely the resulting urges and responses are a natural and subconscious process. History and anthropology inform us there are many ways to exist sexually and the rich spontaneous choices emerging from such pansexuality could eradicate many neuroses. Pointless guilt complexes or shame responses would disappear with an increased open mindedness. Furthermore, eradicating the anxiety of having committed a sin would make life more bearable and comfortable. In conclusion, the theory of pansexuality assists us in comprehending the many sexual possibilities existing within us, to accept and live with them whilst employing intelligence, responsibility and a natural joy."

Ebrary: Found 27 items Example: Kamp, David. Film Snob's Dictionary : An Essential Lexicon of Filmological Knowledge. Westminster, MD, USA: Broadway Books, 2006. p 19. "Clift, Montgomery. Fragile, doomed matinee idol (1920? 66), posthumously adopted by hipsters and queer theorists on account of his pansexual appeal, intense performances, open-secret homosexuality, and tragic final years. (Both the Clash and R. E. M. devoted songs to him, ?The Right Profile? and ?Monty Got a Raw Deal,? respectively.) An instant star opposite John Wayne in HOWARD HAWKS’s Western Red River (1948), Clift quickly established himself as a sort of proto-ANTIHERO, racking up three Oscar nominations in five years for The Search (1948), A Place in the Sun (1951), and From Here to Eternity (1953). In 1957, he was badly disfigured in a car accident after leaving a party, surviving when his friend Elizabeth Taylor rushed to the scene and dislodged two teeth from his throat. After reconstructive facial surgery, Montgomery Clift returned to the screen more mesmerizingly"

Battis, Jes. Investigating Farscape : Uncharted Territories of Sex and Science Fiction. London, , GBR: I. B. Tauris & Company, Limited, 2007. p 106. "Chiana and Talikaa share a kiss, which seems to be a moment of rather innocent sexual expression on Chiana’s part, rather than some calculated lesbian-ratings-grab on the part of the writers. It isn’t a heavy makeout session, but rather an exploratory gesture. From what we can tell about Chiana and her sexual history, she seems to identify as pansexual, which is precisely what makes her such a threat to the conservative Nebari. She hasn’t internalized the strict sexual mores and prohibitions of her culture, and prefers to express herself with complete erotic freedom. This makes her a political prisoner among her own people, a sexual subaltern, whose own theories of love and gender are silenced by her captors for fear that they might incite some manner of gender revolt. Like Zhaan, who is imprisoned because she remains a political threat, Chiana is put in shackles because of her non-conformist sexual attitudes. This type of sexual rebellion would normally emerge from the privileged bourgeoisie class, but in Chiana’s case, it is evident within a member of the Nebari proletarian underclass."

Credo Reference: Found 4 items Example: Melville, Herman. (2005). In Continuum Encyclopedia of American Literature. Retrieved July 05, 2008, from "Beyond plot, character, and tone, Moby-Dick engages readers in vital dialogues concerning the promise and limits of transcendental mysticism, the betrayal of democratic leadership, the toll of American capitalism, the value of primitivism set beside the impossibility of faith, and the perversity of racism amidst the hope of universal brotherhood. The book is as well a relentless exposure of the vacancy of being, a daring experiment in symbolism, and an equally daring examination of male sexuality. Despite claims that M. may have had homosexual encounters at sea, or with Hawthorne, no evidence for such speculation exists. Even so, M.'s own orientation is debatable. His heterosexuality was manifested in his conventional married life, but his writing is so intensely sexualized and homoerotic to boot that no reader can or should ignore its powerful homosexual and homosocial elements. Hints of homosexual desire are found in Typee and Redburn as well as Moby-Dick and Pierre, and they continue on most famously perhaps to the end in Billy Budd. But equally powerful instances of mixed gender love fill the same works, as well as the last, sensual Rose Poems. In all, it may be said that M. loved love; he was pansexual -hetero, homo and something in between."

pansexual. (2007). In The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language. Retrieved July 05, 2008, from "Pansexual- Relating to, having, or open to sexual activity of many kinds. n. A pansexual person. pansexuality -ali-te n."

omnisexual. (2007). In The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language. Retrieved July 05, 2008, from "Omnisexual- adj. Pansexual. n. A pansexual person. omnisexuality n."

pansexual \pan-sek-sh(-)wl, -shl\. (2004). In Merriam-Webster's Collegiate(R) Dictionary. Retrieved July 05, 2008, from "pansexual- adjective (1926) : exhibiting or implying many forms of sexual expression."

I also looked around on the internet, too. Here’s some stuff, mostly cultural references, not much peer reviewed, but some may be useful for the article.Locatorsjoy (talk) 00:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

T-Vox (MediaWiki) “The character Jack Harkness from the BBC television series Doctor Who and Torchwood is a pansexual. He originally comes from around the year 5000, when humans are spread out across space, a far-future sociological situation that might be responsible for his potential to be attracted to humans irrespective of gender, and possibly species from other planets as well. It has been said that he does not see people in terms of gender. In Day One he expresses disapproval of humanity's "quaint little categories", and is described by teammate Toshiko Sato as being willing to "shag anybody as long as they're gorgeous enough". In the case of Jack, the distinction between bi and pansexual is irrelevant due to the fact that all his partners appear to fit into a male/female gender binary. In an episode of Will & Grace, Karen Walker's pastry chef considers himself pansexual, which was revealed after he had sex with Will, Karen, and Rosario. In 2006, a controversial article about the different sexual orientations in Stuyvesant High School and how they represent a national trend appeared in New York Magazine. [2] Captain Hero from Drawn Together is a notable example of pansexuality in recent popular fiction. While he also shows signs of various paraphilias, his most commonly shown sexual behaviour to be attracted to his gay male housemate Xandir and occasionally his female housemates Princess Clara and Foxxy Love. On the TV show Scrubs, a character The Todd, initially thought to be excessively heterosexual, is actually pansexual. In fact, in episode 4.14, "My Lucky Charm," he states, "The Todd appreciates hot, regardless of gender." In the end of the episode 5.20, when asked directly what orientation he is, he simply replies "I'm The Todd". The Todd has also admitted that he made out with his mother.”

Pansexual Definition created by Acryl ( on Wed Aug 22 2001 at 1:33:50. Retrieved July 5, 2008 from Pansexual describes individuals whose attraction to people is not limited by their biological status or by their gender preference. It also refers to a sort of movement that embraces and encourages open expression of gender and partner preference regardless of sex. It is inclusive as well of those aspects of technology that allow sex roles to be changed permanently or temporarily. While previous models of sexuality and community included such isolated distinctions as high femme lesbian females, high femme lesbian transsexual born-males, androgynous males, androgynous transgendered born females, butch bisexual men, etc.., pansexual people participate in a sex- and gender- diverse world without stressing the relationship between gender and biology, gender and sexual preference, or sexual preference and biology.

It would behoove the article to include something from Acryl (ie: invite hir to participate) that elaborates on the aspects of technology as a part of pansexuality. I had not considered that before and it is almost a delightful article unto itself. I’m sure there is research out there on the idea. I wonder if the folks over in Astrosociology have any input into this area?Locatorsjoy (talk) 00:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Another note, I really like Acryl’s definition and explanation. After reading so many various definition for pansexual, it incorporates the many-ness of the word.Locatorsjoy (talk) 00:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Has antrosexual been used as a term in any peer reviewed articles? I will look around and see what I can find.Locatorsjoy (talk)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality[edit]

Hi, I see you haven't made any contributions in quite a while. Are you still interested in being involved in the above project? --Simon Speed (talk) 09:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, please include me in the above project. I am commencing on some research on the terms. Locatorsjoy (talk) 19:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Correction and Detention Facilities[edit]

Thanks for your expression of interest in Wikipedia Prisons, otherwise known as Wikiproject Correction and Detention Facilities. Seven people have now indicated here that they would like to help out so I am now assuming that this project will actually happen. I suppose we need to take care of a few preliminaries: getting through the proposal stage, and creating a wikiproject page, page tag, and maybe an infobox. Thanks again for your interest. --Cdogsimmons (talk) 00:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikiproject Correction and Detention Facilities Update[edit]

As you can see, this project has now taken off. Thanks for your support!--Cdogsimmons (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)