User talk:Macraghnaill

Tadgh v Tadhg

Hi. Some people spell the name "Tadgh" while others spell it "Tadhg". Both are valid. And one doesn't have immediate/automatic primacy over the other. For example, the footballer is Tadhg Purcell. While the rugby player is Tadgh McElroy. Please do not automatically "correct" variants as you find them. Look to the sources. Like the one in this webpage - which (rightly or wrongly) gives "Some of its stones were used by [..] Tadgh na Buile O'Flaherty, to build his castle". And so did not support your unexplained change. Since restored (to reflect the source). Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 15:51, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that several of your unexplained/unsupported changes resulted in "broken" interwiki links. Including here, here, here. (If multiple reliable sources indicate that the linked articles are at the incorrect titles, then consider opening related move requests. And we can address any issues more completely. Making unsupported/unexplained changes (which serve only to break links) is not especially helpful to the project. Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 16:08, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Guliolopez. Firstly, genuine apologies for breaking the links. That's annoying and I shouldn't have done that. Put it down to lack of editing experience here. You should know, though, that I haven't automatically corrected variants as I found them. That very example of McElroy, the rugby player - I chose not to edit that because I know that that version is how he spells his name. Níl a fhios agam cén leibhéal Gaeilge atá agat, ach táim sásta é seo a phlé leat as Gaeilge. Is cainteoir Gaeilge mé féin agus tá rud nó dhó ar eolas agam faoi litriú na teanga. You're right that the late Lt. Gen. O'Neill's name is spelled that way in the source. However, the source is incorrect. He was Chief of Staff of the Irish Defence Forces and he spelled his name Tadhg, beannacht Dé lena anam. You can see his death notice on rip.ie if you like. The only examples of Tadhg that I edited were the ones that I did know the spelling of. If someone is officially called something, I won't dare change it. However, while everyone's name is valid, it is not true to say that that other spelling is correct from an Irish language point of view. In the days of Old Irish, the name would have been Tadg (and even Tadc). But there would have been a ponc (a little dot) above the d. In Modern Irish, that ponc has been replaced by the letter h. What seems to have happened since the standardisation of Irish spelling is that there has been a bit of confusion over where the h actually goes. Hence, you will often see the h in the wrong place. I can assure you, though, that the h should never follow the g in any version of the name (in either Old or Modern Irish). I hope I haven't come across as a smarty-pants. I've just tried as best as I can to explain where I'm coming from. Síocháin agus grá. Macraghnaill (talk) 17:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya. In no particular order:

leibhéal Gaeilge atá agat. An Ardteist. Ardleibhéal. Míle naoi déag nócha's a fadó...
apologies for breaking the links. Ná bac leis.
haven't automatically corrected variants. Grand job. The volume of edits (and red links) made me think maybe a search/replace approach (or even script) was at play.
chose not to edit [when not needed] [..And..] only [..] edited ones that I did know the spelling of. Ideal.
other spelling is [in]correct from an Irish language point of view. Being from Cork, the Munster Irish convention ("Tadhg") is how, by default, I'd spell the name myself. However, if someone (from points further North) chose to spell their own name as "Tadgh", I wouldn't be inclined to tell them they didn't know how to spell their own name - Certainly not a 15 stone front-rower :)
O'Neill's name is spelled that way in the source [incorrectly]. No doubt you're right. If you have a source which uses the correct spelling (in that context), then please consider adding. Happy to support. Same goes for other examples. Like an alternative reliable/verifiable source to support the desired change in Toombeola.
(FYI - I'm not sure this change was entirely "cool". You are, clearly, aware that this spelling (rightly or wrongly) is used by some people (themselves) and in some contexts. So removing all mention of it (denial of that reality) doesn't seem appropriate. IMO).

Go néirí an tádh leat. Guliolopez (talk) 23:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Go raibh maith agat, a chara. I'm just going to make one final edit on this and then call it a day, and if you choose to revert it, so be it. But I want to explain my rationale first and hopefully you won't revert it. The source that claims you can spell the name in that way is a website put together by people with expertise in pregnancy and parenting, not with expertise in the Irish language. I see that you've done huge work on wikipedia to make it more accurate and altogether better. That's not plámás now; it's actually relevant to my point. People depend on smart people, like yourself and myself, and if something is in a well written article on wikipedia, they will trust that it's accurate, be that in terms of fact or spelling or whatever. I just think that if we are to say that the name is also spelled that other way, we should at least point out that such spelling is incorrect as per rules of Irish orthography. The only source I can find which says that that other spelling is incorrect is this one:

https://nos.ie/gniomhaiochas/teanga/conas-a-chuirfidh-me-mainm-i-ngaeilge-ar-mo-phas-treoir-don-ghael/

but my own preference would be not to reference that other spelling at all on this particular page (ie just on the page called "Tadhg", not on McElroy's page, etc.). We're not talking here about "removing all mention of it". We're not saying, yeah here McElroy, you should start spelling your name this way. That would be inappropriate, I agree. I'm just suggesting that, on the wikipedia page on the name Tadhg, we don't encourage an incorrect spelling.

Maybe you know this already, but the difference here is not like John/Jon, Marie/Maree or even Micheál/Mícheál. Your spelling is not just Munster convention, it's Irish convention, full stop. When spelled the other way, that "eye" sound (or, up north, the "ay" sound) is completely gone, and the strong g sound at the end becomes more of a gargling sound, and we're left with something that sounds like "Thod-ghhh".

I know we could reference that article on nós.ie to explain why the other spelling is wrong. But, in my opinion, that would look a bit smart Alecky. My own preference would be not to reference it at all, as I say, on this particular page.

I could spend the rest of my days going through wikipedia putting in the síneadh fada here, there and everywhere. But I won't. Tá an Ghaeilge an-tábhachtach domsa, agus braithim go bhfuil dualgas éigin orm cabhrú le daoine ainmneacha na Gaeilge a choimeád slán. And the name Tadhg itself has its own special importance to me. That's why I'm spending my time on this particular issue.

But apart from the emotional side, I think my solution is a good compromise between giving people accurate information, based on our expertise, and not insulting anyone. Macraghnaill (talk) 12:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. RE:

if you choose to revert it, so be it. I have reverted that change. Just because a variant "doesn't follow the rules" doesn't mean the variant doesn't exist. As per the linked source. And the reality (acknowledged by you and as clear from the fact that Tadgh McElroy exists and calls himself that name) that the variant exists. Just as Shivaune (Siobhán?) Field or Kiva (Caoimhe?) Reardon exist.
my own preference would be not to reference that other spelling at all on this particular page. Cannot agree. Pretending the variant doesn't exist (on that article), when the sources and reality establish that it does, falls well within the scope of WP:WINC. Whether "incorrect" or otherwise, it exists.
if we are to say that the name is also spelled that other way, we should at least point out that such spelling is incorrect as per rules of Irish orthography. If you have sources, which establish the primacy or "correctness" (of one spelling/variant over another), then raise them at Talk:Tadhg. Whether in the existing thread. Or open a new one. Continuing this discussion (on your User Talk page where no other interested editors can contribute) is no longer in keeping with talk page guidelines. (Editing etiquette discussions [editor to editor], covering a volume of articles, can occur on User Talk pages. Content discussions, covering one specific article, should occur on that article's Talk page.)

Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 14:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]