User talk:MauraWen/sandbox Grace Hall

First review

Dear MauraWen,
First of all, congratulations for all your efforts in expanding the subject article. You have done a magnificent job: you improved the overall structure, added more detailed and well-sourced content, and expanded the sources from three to seven and the references from six to twenty-two! The resulting prose reads very well and has a pleasant and informative flow.
There are only a few points requiring your attention:

1. in the 'Early life' section, the name 'Caroline' is misspelt as Carolyn in two places: at the start of the 2nd para and in the penultimate sentence of the 3rd para; (fixed)
2. in the 'Family and career' section, 3rd para, the word 'museums' is misspelt as musuems; in the penultimate sentence (same para), there is a superfluous verb in 'She would later design and have built had a small cottage across the lake...'; and in the final sentence 'Born at the new house in 1911 was Carol and Leicester in 1915, ...' might perhaps read better as: 'Hall Hemingway's last two children were born at the new house: Carol in 1911 and Leicester in 1915, when she was forty-two years old.';
3. throughout the article, you might reconsider the balance between using full names (such as "Hall Hemingway", etc.), with alternative pronouns ("she", "her", etc.) when doing so will not confuse the reader. (fixed and sentence replaced)

That's it! When you feel ready, please just go ahead and apply your splendid, expanded new version to our article; we can always tweak it a little more later on, if necessary. But, for now, I think it's good to go!
Thank you once again for your most excellent contributions to this article, Maura; I am so pleased you did all this.
With kindest regards for now;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 17:32, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Pdebee Hi Patrick,

Thank you so much for reviewing the expanded material! I made the corrections that you suggested. I have a question or two about Grace's name. I find it a bit confusing when there are multiple people with the same name being discussed in an article. Do you treat that situation any differently? Do you use a woman's maiden name before she is married and then change to her married name or try to use the same name throughout the article? Is there a rule of thumb for balancing name with pronouns?

I am also a little unsure on how to address her husband. When they were young, I used "Hemingway", then Dr. Hemingway. Is that incorrect?

Thanks again for your advice, and I hope you are feeling better. I plan on updating the article later today. MauraWen (talk) 13:52, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Dear MauraWen,

Thank you for your reply above, and for applying your latest edits, which look good. In answer to your questions:

1. names - Yes, I would do as you did, which accords with MOS:SURNAME: use a woman's maiden name until the point in the article when she's married and has adopted her husband's surname, which doesn't always apply (I am thinking here of cases such as Frida Kahlo). Your approach therefore agrees with this specific paragraph:

Any subject who has had their surname changed should be referred to by their most commonly used name. If their most commonly used name does include their prior surname, and you're discussing a period of their life before the surname change, refer to them by their prior surname. In other words, when discussing the early lives of Hillary and Bill Clinton, use "Rodham met Clinton while they were students at Yale", referring to Hillary using her then-current surname.

2. pronouns - I consulted WP:MOS#Grammar and usage and it doesn't stipulate anything specific about the third person pronoun; nor does Wikipedia:Writing about women. If you think it might be helpful, I would be happy to submit a one-pass edit into the whole draft and apply any changes that would make sense to me; then, if you review those and decide otherwise, it would be easy enough simply to undo that single edit. Please let me know if I have your permission to do this; thank you, Maura.

3. addressing her husband - well, MOS:SURNAME states:

After the initial mention, a person should generally be referred to by surname only, without an honorific prefix such as "Mr.", "Mrs.", "Ms.", "Miss", "Mx" (this includes academic or professional prefixes like "Dr.", "Prof.", "Rev.", etc.) ...

and ...

For people with academic or professional titles, subsequent mentions should omit them. For example, use "Asimov", "Hawking", and "Westheimer"; not "Dr. Asimov", "Professor Hawking", or "Dr. Ruth".

So, even though it would be possible to standardize on Hall Hemingway (for Grace) and Hemingway (for Clarence), you could consider adopting the guideline in MOS:SAMESURNAME and use Clarence Hemingway throughout this article, to make sure that a confused reader wouldn't assume you might be referring to Ernest:

If an article about a person mentions another person with the same surname who is not related by family or marriage, subsequent mentions of the other person should use the full name:

Andrea Dworkin was the subject of biographical writing by Ronald Dworkin.

I realize Grace and Clarence are related by marriage and so, strictly speaking, the above does not apply to them, but it would be interesting to see how it might look, since we have to remove Dr. anyway.

In summary, we are so used always to think of Ernest (and never of Clarence) when we hear or read the name Hemingway that, in this particular case, it might be appropriate always to refer to him as Clarence Hemingway throughout this article. What do you think?

You're most welcome, Maura; I enjoy working with you and would be happy to continue until you feel ready to update the article itself. Thank you very much for asking: yes, I am beginning to feel better, as the medication seems to diminish the frequency of painful episodes, and I am hopeful their intensity will decrease over time. Please keep well yourself.

With kindest regards for now;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 15:41, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Second review

Dear MauraWen,
After completing the latest reply in the above section, I had another close look at your draft and applied five small edits, to fix trivial glitches, as you can see from the View history log. I hope you won't mind that I took this initiative, as it seemed quicker to fix these myself rather than submit the list of such trivial items to you for approval. Thank you for your understanding and support.
With kindest regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 16:40, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Pdebee Hi Patrick, I have gotten busy with non-Wikipedia tasks and have just gotten back to Grace Hall Hemingway. Thank you so much for the MOS information and explanation. I should have consulted the MOS before asking you, but I sometimes find it to be confusing. You are more than welcome to edit the draft. I always welcome collaboration and editing of my drafts and articles, you never need to ask. I will see the "why" in the history log. And if I disagree, I usually contact editors to chat about their changes. I have replaced all the Dr. Hemingway's with Clarence, so if you want to look at the pronoun/Grace H Hemingway situation, please do. I will update the article by Saturday, October 12th.

I see from your user page that you live on the coast of Wales. I envy you! That is a beautiful area of the UK. The last time I was in Wales was in 1980, I have been in the UK in the last few years, in 2015 and 2016. I enjoy exploring the historic sites and the beautiful countryside. So much history! MauraWen (talk) 12:58, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Dear Maura,

You're most welcome; it's a pleasure to assist. Please don't worry: I too spend a lot of time consulting the MOS and finding it sometimes quite difficult to locate some information I remember reading before, but not where!

Thank you for your sense of collaboration; I also work on stuff with other editors from time to time and have always enjoyed the experience, as is the case here; so thank you for your part in this joint effort.

I have now completed the task of streamlining the use of names and third person pronouns, the goal being to let the prose flow a bit more smoothly thanks to a reduction in the number of times individual names are repeated, as this tends to give the impression that we are reminding the reader too frequently when, in fact, the person being talked about can be inferred contextually, and without causing confusion, quite a lot of the time. Please take a look at the results, and feel free to make any changes you deem appropriate. Thank you once again for enabling me to participate; I really appreciate all the improvements you've applied to my initial effort when I created this article.

I am so glad you've visited here before, and you're quite right: I feel blessed to be living here, where the economy is driven mainly by agriculture and tourism. In other words: we live where people want to come on vacation! I live two miles from our local beach, where I go regularly for my high-speed trekking in order to remain fit. You mentioned an interest in poetry in one of your earlier posts; well, feel free to contact me via e-mail if you ever wish to continue a conversation on that topic; you can write to me via the 'email' userbox in the 'About' section at my user page ("This user can be reached by email").

Until then, please contact me again here, any time you might need my assistance with Wiki matters, and I will be glad to help wherever I can.

With kindest regards for now;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 20:13, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi Pdebee Thanks for the offer to continue the conversation on poetry/poets! I will probably email you later today. Thank you for your edits this morning and your previous edits from the last few days. The article looks great and the prose does flow more smoothly. I am going to update Grace Hall Hemingway in a few minutes. I will leave this draft and talk page in my archive section. MauraWen (talk) 12:56, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Dear Maura,

You're most welcome; it was fun and a real pleasure, thanks to your sense of collaboration. Now that you've updated it, the article in main space looks great and so much better than when I created it! My grateful thanks to you for making it look so good, as a result of your research and contributions. I am touched that you thought of giving me credit for my brief participation; thank you, Maura.

On a related topic, were you intent on adding the {{Copied}} template at the article's talk page? If so, you can insert it right underneath mine, and here's the code for it:

I look forward to hearing from you again, either here or at my email address. Until then, please keep well and joyful.

With kindest regards for now;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 14:01, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Patrick I have never used the copied template before and I have not noticed the template on other talk pages. Is it important to do that for major upgrades? Off to do non-Wikipedia things, I will check back in later. MauraWen (talk) 14:14, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

When you have the time, Maura, take a look at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. In general, I would only use the {{Copied}} template in two cases:

1. when I've created an article from scratch (i.e. moved from the sandbox I used to draft the article) and/or from my translation of an existing article from another (non-English) Wikipedia (using the {{translated page}} template, as shown at Talk:Grace Hall Hemingway, in fact);

2. when I've applied a major update from a draft in one of my sandboxes, with or without one or more contributing editors.

In all cases, this is done to enable all future editors to access the View history log of all changes, back to the creation of the article itself, plus all the changes applied to the drafts (sandboxes, typically) that led to the insertion of new or modified content into an article in main space.

Having said all that, I am sure it doesn't happen all the time () but, personally, I view it as good practice.

With kindest regards;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(become old-fashioned!)} 14:46, 11 October 2019 (UTC)