User talk:Mljacobs6

Welcome![edit]

Hello, Mljacobs6, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome!

But please read WP:COI and WP:SPAMLINKS and WP:V. Thanks. Philip Trueman (talk) 04:49, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hahndorf Hill Winery[edit]

I can't help but noticing that the contribution history from this account seems to consist primarily of adding mentions of, and links to the website of, the above winemaker to various pages here. Could you confirm whether you have a connection to it or any PR company engaged on its behalf? While anyone can in principle contribute, and additions by knowledgeable users are of course welcome, please note that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a marketing window and pages here will not usually need to make specific mention in wine-related pages of more obscure winemakers. It might be an idea to read the policy/guidelines pages you were directed to above. N-HH talk/edits 15:23, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Judging from the username, there is likely a WP:COI with the Hahndorf Hill Winery owned by a Larry Jacobs and Marc Dobson. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 15:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reply[edit]

Thank you for your comments and for your recommendations to read the policy/guidelines pages. I can confirm that I am connected to Hahndorf Hill vineyard and also have been involved in (and initiated) the regional Gruner Veltliner project (known as the Gruner Growers Group) in the Adelaide Hills Wine region of South Australia. This project, which aims to develop a groundswell of understanding and support of the grape variety, Gruner Veltliner, in our region both locally and nationally in the Southern Hemisphere. As you are probably aware, the grape variety is new to this part of the world and the purpose of the material is to create a point of reference to the specific regional pioneers for other interested parties and journalists, and thereby promote the dissemination of the story and facts of how this variety is evolving in this part of the world. There has been, and continues to be, considerable journalistic interest in this story and in most cases, their first point of reference and contact with the various pioneers has been via these pages. The subsequent stories that have emerged regarding the evolution of the variety in our region continue to be of great use and importance to individuals across our industry in our part of the world. I therefore ask you respectfully to cease censoring this information which you have done so doggedly over the past hours and to re-instate the censored material. Mljacobs6 (talk) 22:38, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Gruner Veltliner Project sounds exciting and as a winemaker and wine lover, I look forward to following its progress. But that still doesn't make your edits (which do have a clear conflict of interest behind them) appropriate for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED but neither is it a WP:WINEGUIDE or a platform to further commercial interest. We welcome all constructive edits that helps us improve the encyclopedic coverage of our topics. What makes an edit constructive is how it follows the guidelines that Philip Trueman pointed you to a couple months ago, particularly the Wikipedia:Five pillars. As I noted in my comments below, it is very important to remember that the Grüner Veltliner article is about the grape and not the wineries who work with it so your highly WP:ADVERT and promotional edits to the article are not appropriate nor is it censorship to remove the WP:SPAMLINKS to yours and other wineries.

Again, we welcome constructive edits and we encourage you to read the links that Philip Trueman posted to you above. It will also be very important for you to read our Conflict of Interest guideline which will give you an idea on the most appropriate way to suggest changes to articles that you have a vested financial interest in. To that extent, the best avenue will be to avoid directly editing the article and instead posting your requested changes on the Talk:Grüner Veltliner (or perhaps creating a WP:SANDBOX page at User:Mljacobs6/Sandbox to come up with a rough draft). Then you can request input from objective and uninvolved editors to evaluate the appropriateness of your edits. I can understand if you would want some other than me to do that evaluation since we have been interacting but there are uninvolved editors at the Wine Project as well as at Wikipedia:Third opinion and at Wikipedia:Editor assistance. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 22:55, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please advise how the information could be written so that it fulfils the criteria you have mentioned. Whilst I agree that the Wik reference to 'Gruner Veltliner' is indeed about the grape, I also believe that its current evolution in the Southern Hemisphere is an important and interesting facet about this variety. Since Wik is used as a reference starting point for individuals seeking information, I have believed that the material that I supplied was pertinent within its context. 125.253.79.54 (talk) 23:16, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've mentioned some suggestion below but the first starting place is to find some independent, neutral reliable sources dealing with the subject. This would include reliable wine texts such as Jancis Robinson's Wine Grapes, the Oxford Companion to Wine or some of Oz Clarke and James Halliday books. It can include reliable wine magazines such as Wine Spectator, Decanter and newspapers. What we want to avoid is links to wineries, wine blogs or very unreliable sites like answers.com which is what your previous edits included.

Anything that can't be WP:CITEd to a reliable, independent and neutral source should not be included and this may mean saying that "Grüner Veltliner was first planted in Australia in 2006" instead of "Three clones of Gruner Veltliner were imported into Australia in 2006 by Hahndorf Hill Winery" if we only have independent sourcing for the former. However, if we can find independent, neutral, reliable sources that mention the name of the first winery, that is certainly worth including but the winery will be WP:WIKILINKed as Hahndorf Hill Winery instead of an external link to the winery. Then, later, if the winery has enough significant coverage in independent, reliable sources to establish WP:NOTABILITY, an article can be created to turn that red link blue and an external link to the winery's website can be added to the end of the article. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 23:52, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for that input. I do not believe that I am an unreliable source of information - indeed in the rapid way the process has evolved in our region over the past three years, I have been intimately involved and probably the most complete source of information regarding this process. I apologise for the website links - did not realise that this was unacceptable and only inserted them because I felt it directed interested parties to further information. I will post a revised version of the information on this 'talk' platform for your scrutiny. 125.253.79.54 (talk) 01:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here is my revised copy in bold, with attached refereces for your attention. Gruner Veltliner is planted in Australia, particularly in the Adelaide Hills wine region in South Australia. (Here are two independent third party references to this fact: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/gruner-veltliner-wine-grape-variety-to-be-grown-in-adelaide-hillss/story-fn6bqphm-1225993880309 is a reference made in the main daily newspaper of Adelaide, whereas the second reference is from the Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-jennings/gruner-veltliner_b_2989635.html Three clones of Gruner Veltliner were imported into Australia in 2006 by Hahndorf Hill Winery. (This is a fact and without this initial step, the evolution of this variety in Australia may not yet have begun. If you wish, I could upload copies of the importation and quarantine process that took place between 2006 – 2008 before the plant material was released for propagation.)(James Halliday - Australian Wine Companion 2013 edition, p.300) The first producer of Gruner Veltliner in Australia was Lark Hill in 2009, followed by Hahndorf Hill in 2010. (Reference: Wine Grapes 2012 Jancis Robinson, p. 450) Gruner Veltliner is also planted in New Zealand where Coopers Creek were the first to bottle this variety in 2008. (Reference: Wine Grapes 2012 Jancis Robinson, p. 450) (Perhaps I need to contextualise the current situation which has underpinned the journalistic interest that planting this variety in this part of the word has triggered. In the same way that New Zealand adopted Sauvignon Blanc 30 years ago, and more or less re-invented the variety, so is there an intrigue and expectation that the same is going to happen with Gruner Veltliner. Time will prove whether this will indeed happen – but in the meantime, there is considerable interest and focus on those who have pioneered this variety in this part of the world.) Many thanks,(and apologies as I've just noticed that each time I edit my 'reply' on this page, we both get sent multiple email alerts!) 125.253.79.54 (talk) 02:16, 11 May 2013 (UTC) PS: I have incidentally just been informed that there is a nice mention of the Hahndorf Hill Gruner Veltliner in today's Financial Times (London) 11.5.13 Magazine, 'Jancis Robinson - Cutting loose.' 125.253.79.54 (talk) 13:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This looks like a very excellent start and I do think we'll be able to find a way to get most of this in the article. As I mentioned below previously, I own many of these texts but I'm traveling at the moment and will not be home till Monday so if you could give me a few days just to verify everything that would be great. Also, it is not that we consider you an unreliable source but your first person account is undoubtedly original research which Wikipedia avoids. We take the same approach to Ph.D scientists. We don't doubt that they are reliable or that their research is valid but since there is WP:NODEADLINE for when Wikipedia has to be completed, we simply just wait until those original, first person accounts get picked up and reported by independent, reliable sources. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 15:00, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your assistance so far. Incidentally, what is your formal connection to Wik?125.253.71.105 (talk) 21:12, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I assume by Wik you mean Wikipedia? If so my formal connection is the same as any other user, just an editor striving to build an encyclopedia while following Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 00:03, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Photo?[edit]

Hey quick question, do you have a photo of your Gruner that we can use to illustrate the article? Something like the Oregon Gruner one that we have in the article with a glass of the wine next to a bottle that clearly shows the grape name and wine region? A vineyard photo would also be nice. If you are willing to release the photo with one of the Wikipedia:File copyright tags/Free licenses that we can use, it would be a great illustration for the article. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 00:19, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes! I've taken some great harvesting pics and bunch shots this vintage. We own the copyright to all the pics and I, of course, will give 100% permission for you to use. How do I get the pics to you? 125.253.71.233 (talk) 00:40, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The easiest thing to do would be to create an account on Wikimedia Commons where you can upload the photos and release them under one of the appropriate licenses from the page I linked to above. I usually do Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported. If you don't want to do that, you could create a Flickr account (or use one already created) and just make sure all the photos have a license like Attribution-Share Alike. You can post the Flickr stream link here and I can upload them for you.

I just got home and am looking through the Gruner stuff now and realized that Wikipedia currently doesn't have an article on Adelaide Hills wine (and only a brief mention in South Australian wine). We'll definitely need to get that article going and I'm sure your harvest pics would be great for that too. Give me a few hours for the Gruner article and I think we'll have something worked out by the end of the day. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 00:51, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fantastic. I'm very low-tech, but I'll try and follow your instruction above! 125.253.71.233 (talk) 00:53, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I'm progressing pretty well with the image uploading. Just a question - what copyright tag can I use? I commissioned all the images to be taken and I fully own the copyrights to all the images. Mljacobs6 (talk) 01:45, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Creative Commons tags listed at Wikipedia:File_copyright_tags/Free_licenses#Creative_Commons are the best for Wikipedia. With licenses like Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 you own the copyright but you allow for people to reuse the photo providing that they give you full credit for being the original author of the photo. This is important for Wikipedia because we want anyone to be able to freely use our articles, even print them out, without having to pay a licensing fee for the photos used to illustrate the article. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 02:09, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've done it! The category that I created was 'Gruner Veltliner grape harvest.' Please advise whether you have managed to find them! Mljacobs6 (talk) 06:52, 13 May 2013 (UTC) Uploaded pictures update: I suspect that I have not been that successful in correctly uploading the images. I can not find the images by doing a simple search on the Wikimedia Commons page. I can only view them when I’ve logged in at Wikimedia Commons, and then click on my ‘Uploads’ …. then all 6 pictures are visible. But when I click on any one of these pictures, it brings up further data, including the warning that: ‘The uploader did not provide sufficient information (a valid and suitable tag) on this media's copyright status. Unless the copyright status is provided, the file could be deleted seven days after the upload (13 May 2013).’ I then clicked the ‘Edit’ button under the ‘Licensing’ heading attached to the picture, and pasted the following tag: ‘Attribution-Sharealike 3.0’ The warning that ‘The uploader did not provide sufficient information (a valid and suitable tag) on this media's copyright status, etc’ has now gone. But I still can not find my uploaded imaged by doing a simple search on the Wikimedia Commons page. Mljacobs6 (talk) 12:48, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The search function on Wikimedia commons is not the best. I found your photos and put them in the Grüner Veltliner category. Some very excellent photos! Quick question though, is this a photo of a Gruner harvested from the first Australian plantings that of your 2006 vines? If so, could you edit the description page of that photo with that back story and it would be an awesome caption to add that historical tidbit to the article. Also, your hand harvest pic was particularly beautiful. I hope you don't mind that I added it to the Harvest (wine) article, with due attribution to you guys of course. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 15:25, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fantastic! I was ‘angsting’ last night as I really do not have the tech skills to do most of these things ... And I'm delighted that you are happy with the pictures. I note that you have updated the copy under the 'Australia' heading. Unfortunately, the intro line is not correct: In Australia, the first Grüner Veltliner were planted in the Adelaide Hills in the state of South Australia in 2006 by Hahndorf Hill Winery. The history is quite complicated and I will try to clarify this for you in the following notes:

2005: I was very keen to plant Gruner Veltliner. Managed to establish that there were two clones planted in Botanical Gardens, Tasmania, under the guardianship of Graham Wiltshire ('Father of Pinot Noir in Tas.') He refused to release the material as it was virus infested. 2006: I managed to import three different clones of GV from Austria, which automatically went into quarantine in Melbourne till 2008, when they were cleared of all unwanted diseases. 2008: I propagated and grafted the first batch (First Gruner Veltliner to be planted in South Australia, with our first wine being produced in 2010.) Also, together with Prue Henschke, in her capacity as chair of the Adelaide Hills Vine Improvement Inc. (AHVII), we initiated the Gruner Veltliner Project in the Adelaide Hills, with the aim to establish this region as the premier region for the variety in Australia. As a consequence, there are now 12 other growers of Gruner in our region. (Three weeks ago we were able to invite wine journalist, Tim White, to an Adelaide Hills tasting of no less than nine different wines that were made in the Adelaide Hills!) As a consequence of the Gruner Veltliner Project, the Adelaide Hills wine region now has the largest concentration of Gruner plantings in Australia. In the interim, Graham Wiltshire had decided to release the Tasmanian material and some was planted at Stony Rise in Tasmania (these were in fact the first commercial plantings in Tasmania and Australia - but they only produced their first wine in 2011.) This material was also released to Lark Hill in the Canberra Region who produced Australia's first Gruner Veltliner wine in 2009. There has, however, been a call from Dr Nuredin Habili, from the School of Agriculture, Food and Wine, The University of Adelaide, for this Tasmanian material not to be propagated any further in Australia, because of its virus status. (This information is not for publication, but purely to paint the complete picture for you.) So in summary, Lark Hill was the first to produce the wine in Australia in 2009, followed by Hahndorf Hill in 2010, who imported virus-free material from Austria in 2006. This material now forms the basis of the Gruner Veltliner Project in the Adelaide Hills. This material will also, from 2014, be made available to growers in the rest of Australia.

Oh good catch! I had that line in my first draft before I dived into the referencing and I didn't tweak it when the references didn't go in that direction. I was working on expanding the entire article while there is still some more to do, I posted the draft early since I promised it last night but had a lot of errands to run today and I didn't want you to think that I forgot. I'm still looking for more references for the Australia section so if you have any more sources I will be glad to include them. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 02:52, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The only other possible interesting sources of data could be the following two websites - one by James Halliday http://australianwinecompanion.blogspot.com.au/2011/06/gruner-veltliner-next-big-thing.html and the other by The Adelaide review http://www.adelaidereview.com.au/food-wine-coffee/article/gruener-veltliner Mljacobs6 (talk) 10:33, 14 May 2013 (UTC) PS: Just had a look at the full article - looks great - well done! (only one correction is to the date that refers to the plantings at Hahndorf Hill - please change from 2006 (when the material was imported from Austria) to 2008 (when it was first planted at Hahndorf Hill.)I will now toast your article with a glass of .... Gruner, of course! Mljacobs6 (talk) 10:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad you like it and I'm glad we were able to work out something agreeable for the article. If you do have to take a picture of your Gruner wine with the bottle (kind of like that Oregon Gruner pic above), let me know and we'll add it to the article. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 17:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful! I've got a great shot taken in the autumnal vineyard of the 2012 vintage which Jancis Robinson has been so partial to! Have uploaded it under the same folder 'Gruner Veltliner grape harvest.' Mljacobs6 (talk) 23:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is an excellent photo but do you have one which includes a glass of the wine with it? Photo of just wine bottles are a little tricky on Wikipedia because of the fear of imposing on the copyright of wine label creator (even if I'm sure you wouldn't object to us using it). So we try to make a habit of including a glass of the wine with the bottle that way we can say that the glass of wine is the primary focus of the photo with the bottle as essentially a background prop. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 00:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes! I've got something with a glass of wine included in the pic. Many thanks for guiding me through this minefield of copyright issues! Has been uploaded to the same file. Mljacobs6 (talk) 01:43, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect! Added it to the article. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine

Looks fantastic! (I’m obviously a better photographer than I've previously given myself credit for ... :) Many thanks for all your assistance and guidance. Mljacobs6 (talk) 03:54, 15 May 2013 (UTC) Just had a bit of fun Gruner-news today ... The Hahndorf Hill Gruner 2012 was rated top Gruner Veltliner at an International Gruner Veltliner tasting organised by prestigious Falstaff magazine in Austria! Here is a link to the results: http://www.falstaff.at/weinliste/suche/weinlist/1.html?tx_faldb_pi1[publikationid]=413 Just press the 'translate' button at top of page ... Mljacobs6 (talk) 11:14, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Sorry - here is the correct link: http://www.falstaff.at/weinliste/suche/weinlist/1.html?tx_faldb_pi1[publikationid]=413 Mljacobs6 (talk) 11:20, 4 June 2013 (UTC) Not sure what is happening with the URL - it does not go to the Gruner article once I have pasted it on this Wiki page ... but try going via the link on my website http://www.hahndorfhillwinery.com.au/News ... regards, Mljacobs6 (talk) 11:26, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gruner Article[edit]

Please do not add promotional material to Wikipedia. While objective prose about beliefs, products or services is acceptable, Wikipedia is not intended to be a vehicle for soapboxing, advertising or promotion. Thank you. Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a collection of links, nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites with which you are affiliated, and links that attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam guideline for further explanations. Because Wikipedia uses the nofollow attribute value, its external links are disregarded by most search engines. If you feel the link should be added to the page, please discuss it on the associated talk page rather than re-adding it. Thank you. Please do not add or change content without verifying it by citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 15:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also - I do understand that the Grüner Veltliner article needs works and expansion of its coverage on plantings outside Austria. However, Wikipedia is not a wineguide and we do not need advertizing links to Hahndorf Hill Winery, Lark Hill and Coopers Creek. What we need is neutrally written content cited to independent reliable sources (i.e. not winery websites, answers.com or wine blog) that present the material in an encyclopedic tone. We need to keep in mind that this article is about the grape and not the wineries that produce it.

I have moved Grüner Veltliner article up to my list of articles to work on and I have several reliable sources from Wine Grape, Oxford Companion to Wine, Oz Clarke's grape book and several books from James Halliday that will help give an Australian perspective on how the grape is being used there. Unfortunately I am traveling this week so I urge you to have patience.

Of course, you are welcome to contribute towards improving the article but the version you keep reverting to is not appropriate due to your use of WP:SPAMLINKS to wineries, improperly embedded external links instead of wiki links and uncited material that is written in an WP:ADVERT and WP:WINEGUIDE sounding manner. Again, I encourage you to keep in mind that this article is about the grape and not the wineries so your edits should be more focused on encyclopedic details of the grapes with very little need to mention wineries at all. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 15:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]