User talk:Pdfpdf/Archive33-Nancy-Wilson

Stuff from User talk:Plutonix - See also: User talk:Plutonix history

"See also"

Nancy Wilson (rock musician)
Heart (band)
Heart discography
Ann Wilson
Roger Fisher (guitarist)
Mike Fisher (musician)
Steve Fossen
Michael DeRosier
Howard Leese
Mike Flicker
Shelly Siegel
Mushroom Records was an Australian record label formed by Michael Gudinski and Ray Evans in Melbourne in 1972.
Mushroom Studios
Mushroom Records (Canada) was a Canadian independent record label founded in Vancouver with financial backing by brothers Wink and Dick Vogel in 1974.
See Heartless (Heart song) for more details on contract dispute
Bad Animals Studio

Nancy Wilson

Thanks for cleaning up after me. Most appreciated. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 04:00, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware of the single source nature, but there isnt much else that is authoritative or detailed and not PR driven fluff. I did have a few other sources in the original draft but many are video sources (Vh1 Behind the Music, a Tom Snyder interview, a Seattle TV piece made at the time of the break up...) that are difficult to cite (though they are on YouTube) or are from a site on the WP blacklist (hence the wording in FN 18). As it is, the book has contributions by Ennis and others. In fact, the Fisher break up is largely told by Roger. Regardless, the entry is better than the stub it was before.

Well handled! (i.e. I'm impressed how simply and quietly you've avoided a potential edit war.)

I'm also impressed by how you're simply and quietly solving the problems, rather than making a drama about it. (Which, unfortunately, seems to be the standard-wikipedia-modus-operandi-of-choice.)

Good work! (Or at least, I think it's good work.) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 09:12, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I am not a child. Most of the things (ie grammar) make sense and reveal clumsy language resulting from (over) wordsmithing. I do plan to expand the part on the break-up soon; it was more than the result of his studio work, but aggressive actions towards Nancy. His story has changed over the years too.

I've just read the talk page - first time for nearly 4 years!

If it's not too late, yes, I'd like to collaborate. Pdfpdf (talk) 08:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wow!! Good stuff!! Thanks for answering my questions so thoroughly! (BTW: I don't usually end every sentence with an exclamation mark.)

I agree with pretty much everything you've said/done. In response to your questions and open statements:

Sorry about changing the ref tags - I've changed them back. (Or at least I had, until WP lost my changes. Oh well, I will change them back and make the all consistent as ref name=CHxx
nope 13 - books almost always tell stories thematically rather than chronologically. - Agree.
FWIW, I triple checked all the book refs months ago when I first posted the expanded entry, since it is a live bio. - Actually, it's worth quite a bit.
Re Rod Stewart Tour: I agree with everything you say. Obviously your google skills are superior to mine! Thanks for sorting that out.
(Ch 17 - Leave It to Cleavage - Hmmm. I guess Leave It to Beaver isn't quite as subtle ...) (A somewhat rhetorical attempt at humour ;-)
your section dates are introducing errors as well - They were meant to help clarify chronology - i.e. They were meant to add value. If you think they cause more problems than they solve, please feel free to remove them. (I don't mind either way.)
The studio is hardly an epic event. - OK. (But it is notable enough to have its own wiki page ... ) Yes, leave it out.
bought a department store TV and VCR in order to do it inexpensively. - Perhaps they shouldn't have sold the studio? (A second rhetorical attempt at humour.)
The work often took place in 103 degree heat because the engineer's air conditioner was broken - It seems strange to me that a multi-millionaire, (with a multi-millionaire husband), who at one time daily put thousands of dollars per day up her nose, would tolerate 103 degree heat heat rather than fix the air conditioner. Does it seem strange to you?
ironically - Yes, that does raise a laugh!

Other comments:

I think your recent additions have convinced me that I want to get hold of a copy of the book. (Amazon, here I come.)
When reading the first dozen or so references on the Heart (band) page, I noticed that one of them had quite a bit to say about her mum & dad - particularly about their musical background, and the young family's musical background. One day I might get around to putting some of that info into the first section. Given that this page is a WP Bio, is feels strange to me to not see anything about her mother or the family interest in music.
As an aside, does the book say anything about older sister Lynn having an interest in music?

I'd better save this before WP loses it, too. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 00:33, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reposnse(s)

I think some of your "lost" changes might have been from the final edits I was applying. At least my 'change log' wasnt done yet (below).
The book is really good, some of the best parts (descended from a Lady Axe Killer (of Indians)) arent even in the entry, cuz you gotta draw the line somewhere. There is a statue of her holding the axe in Mass somewhere. The book has a great picture of Nancy in front of the statue with her 'Axe'. See Hannah Duston/Dustin second pic (or Close Up Nancy is standing just like that) ...Ann's son is named after her (Dustin).
The one criticism of it is that Nancy seems less forthcoming than Ann about sex drugs and R&R (prolly because of the kids and hubby). Ann tells of some humiliating events.
They do cover mom and dad and supporting their early music interests. I tried to add some of that for color (like mom calling the station) or sewing matching Beatles costumes for the Viewpoints. The musical aspect was largely that when Dad was stationed in Taiwan, if they wanted to hear American music, they'd have to make it themselves. Or listening to living room concerts.
After letting it 'settle', I was going to come back and add a few of those stories. I wanted to get the music part right and picked over first. For instance, the entry doesnt cover mom and dad's death (Mom died basically while they were on stage for a Rock Honors thing...or after Annie was a hit, Dad was a substitute teacher and Ann would come and rap with the kids as a guest speaker, LOL).
They actually could not afford to record in their own studio - the day rate was $1500. I sort of thought that odd: they took a studio that an upstart band like 1974-era Heart could afford and made it one that only the likes of Pearl Jam or Alice in Chains could afford. They only did one album there...cant recall which one.

On the other hand, they lent lots of money to Curtis to help get Pearl Jam started, I think they did the same for Soundgarden...I know Ann was a bit of a mentor to Chris Cornell.
The WP Studio X/Bad Animals entry is incomplete/in error (gasp) - it goes back further than 1979: It was Kaye-Smith Studios in the 1960s and so named when Heart recorded there (Kaye == Danny Kaye).

Nancy did the MaGuire score on the cheap because she did not want to come off like a Diva spending loads of money just because she was the director's wife. Bad Animals at $1500 would be just that.
Also, she apparently owns several houses/properties (including a 'get-away' cabin - right across the road from Ann's LOL). Her "real estate addiction" is one of the reasons for the 2001/2002 return (100s of thousands on fertility treatments being another).
Lynn actually sings backup (along with Grace Slick) on HEART (I think I can make out Grace on Never). But I dont know what she does or anything.

Note: The refs were all correct on the original entry, I did find 1 that was off because one of us merged paragraphs or something.

Stylistic note: I always refer to them as "Nancy and Ann" since it it Nancy's entry (except listing them chronologically at the start).

I like the dates in the major section headers, but they are problematic in subsections in a minor way. I'll revert some of them tomorrow.

Nancy Wilson edits

Changes

Re ordered the Dreamboat Annie section...responding to edits caused it to repeat itself.
Rod Stewart did play in Montreal...see comment
added a little content on the breakup, panic attacks, film work, changed InfoBox to Dreamboat album (see comment); added links to an interview, Hollywood Star and Marriage
added details and some content cite able to Behind the Music. Some of this was purposely left out because the book seemed an ill-advised source. VH1's piece does feature them telling their story, but also underwent editorial review and ultimately 'broadcast' making it seem safe and reliable.

MY Comments: (note: after hours of fact checking, researching and wordsmithing, I was starting to feel like a research asst. and was cranky...)
A)I think the explosion of sections horribly disrupts the narrative. According to WP Layout: paragraphs: "Sections usually consist of paragraphs of running prose.". Many of the new sections disrupt the narrative (running prose).
Example 1: "In 1995, Nancy told Ann “I don’t want to do Heart anymore, at least for a while.” The first sentence of the next (new) section is "Nancy explained that..." CLEARLY the same story is being told. That sentence is the section topic/lead in for the next 3 paras. Locating it in its own section complete with 18 point title bar breaks the narrative.
Example 2: "These Dreams - First number one single" (new section title) This was inserted right in the middle of the (sub) story of the song. It is THE main topic of the paragraph before it. The reason the 2 sentences were broken out from the preceding para was because it vindicates her efforts.

Likewise the single sentence, major section break for wedding made it seem like it took place outside the 1980s.
I removed the section breaks for WEDDING and THESE DREAMS for the sake of the running prose.
WhirlyGig and McCabes section breaks do the same thing. After the interlude mentioning them only in passing (they are not monumental events), the running prose comes back to motherhood to wrap it up chronologically and in toto for both Nancy and Ann. Two sections of only 1 or 2 sentence do not make it more readable.
I also reverted the title to "solo Work" because it covers BOTH 'Hope and Glory' and the instructional DVD. it is more accurate than 'Instructional Acoustic Guitar (2007)'

B) The proliferation of dates also seems excessive (there are more section dates in this entry than those for Thomas Jefferson and George Washington combined!). I propose the 2 dash section titles implement dates but few (if any) of the others [ie "==Early years (1954-1972)" but not "===White Heart and Hocus Pocus (1970-1972)"]). (note: I'd omit Hocus Pocus in the section title as they used that name very briefly before reverting to White Heart. HP gets mentioned often because there are some pics of the group using that name. HP was not used for much longer than White Sail was (which has a cooler story) as far as I can tell.)

1) This is the approach used in the GW entry and it looks fine.
2) Once the time frame has been established, does it really need to be repeated over and over?
3) The dates are also introducing small inaccuracies The (original) entry and use of album titles, were not strictly about the making of the album, but the general events around that time (a now gone intro explained that). Adding dates, infers all those events took place in that year and sometimes they did not. If the section tells that album XYZ was released on such and such a date, that ought to suffice for the historicity. I only removed the date from one (Nancy's Return) - I am pretty sure they did a little stuff in 2001 before TOURING in 2002.

C) "Pre-Fame" is an awful section title.

I changed "Fame" to "Early Success" (fame is relative and obviously much greater Fame was to come). I cant think of a better one for "Pre Fame" just now...the 2 best are already used in subsections

D)I propose shorter section titles. "First number one single" told the whole story of that entire section. I dont understand how spoilers in section titles improves things at all. Fans and older people already know or have an inkling of the ending or result; it is nothing but a spoiler for everyone else.
E) "CONNIE" not "Connie" is how she/they are credited on all the albums (see 'Never' credits). I was careful about those details. I left this because style/format Nazi's ignorant of the content will change it anyway...might as well embrace it (plus they do revert to "Connie" in the book).
Plutonix (talk) 00:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In principle I have no problems with any of the above, and actually agree with you on most things you say.

A) I think the explosion of sections horribly disrupts the narrative. - Fair comment. (See also (D) below.)
B) The proliferation of dates also seems excessive - Maybe. As I said previously, they were intended to add value. If you think they don't, feel free to remove them.
This is the approach used in the GW entry and it looks fine. - GW = George Washington?
C) Pre-Fame" is an awful section title. - Yes, I agree!
E) Use of BLOCK CAPS (HEART album & CONNIE): As far as I can determine, en:wikipedia refers to the album as [[Heart (album)|Heart]], so I thought we should be consistent with en:wikipedia. As for CONNIE, handle it in whatever manner you feel is best. (I expect that whatever you do, someone will complain! ;-)
D) Section and sub-section headings:
- I dont understand how spoilers in section titles improves things at all. - If you are using the article as "reference material", the section and sub-section headers make it easier to find things. (e.g. Rolling Stone Cover dates; Weddings; Awards & major events, etc.) My day job includes a lot of technical writing, where one of the imperatives is for the reader to be able to find the desired information quickly. Quite honestly, the idea of a section header being a "spoiler" had not occurred to me. (In fact, I'm still having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around the idea of "spoilers" in an encyclopaedia ... )
- it is nothing but a spoiler for everyone else - That's an uncharacteristically sweeping statement for you! ;-)
- I propose shorter section titles - Do you mean shorter sub-section titles? ("The 80s" seems pretty short already!) OK, if you wish, but I have to admit that I don't understand why you want shorter titles.

Have I missed anything? Pdfpdf (talk) 02:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New Problem: Non-free-use photos. (I've commented them out before some Nazi comes along and destroys our hard work, and fills up our talk pages with volumes of auto-generated spam.) Pdfpdf (talk) 02:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Do you know what song Nancy is singing here? It is a part of Behind the Music, the song is at 5:17 to 5:27.

Any idea what song that is? I like it, LOL. Some fan site has all her lead vocal titles listed and it doesnt seem to be one of them. It is from about the era of Private/Passion or Bebe.Plutonix (talk) 02:21, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Found it...it is not a Nancy lead...just the bridge from The Situation (Private Auditions) best part of the song though

"spoilers" and more

the idea of "spoilers" in an encyclopaedia / "long (sub) section titles"
If this was a discography entry or something more technically related, I'd whole heartedly agree. A bio tells a story though, and that suffers at times.

This struck home with me when researching/verifying dates and such. Many kids had never even heard of Heart until Barracuda, Crazy on You and Magic man were used in video games (Grand Theft Auto, Guitar Hero and GH2 (?)). They were amazed that '2 chicks were rocking it out 15+ years before they were born' (and there were LOTS of them). When they come here, virtually everything in the article is new info and some subsection titles ruins any story they might be learning about for the first time. On the whole, there needs to be a balance, I think.

My main objection was that really long subsection titles like '"These Dreams" - First Number one hit' over 2 sentences of section text resulted in the section no longer saying anything substantive not already in the (sub)section title. This specific sub section title got (re)-misplaced too...the title is back in the middle of the subject story.

Misc

Yes GW == George Washington. the style there (and most other bios I checked before starting) limits dates to Sections
"HEART" (all caps) is how it is/was listed on the CD and cassette covers. That seems not to matter to anyone as it is always spelled in mixed case (billboard etc). As with Connie, it is better to just leave it.
I saw the non free images issue...I looked on commons and cant find anything else. It desperately needs pics (I'd love a pic of her playing the Crazy intro with her face all intent: "If I screw up, Ann will shave my head..."). I'll move the 70's pic into the body tomorrow (which is not really PD either...just because "Sidney Júnior" crops a (C) pic doesnt make it a new work...it is a wholly derivative work, but prolly falls under fair use.)
as above, I LIKE the section dates, not the subsection/album ones because the info in them isn't necessarily constrained that way. For example, Andes and Carmassi were hired a bit later than your edit implies...not a big deal until Andes' #1 fan comes along.
I am going to break Little Queen off into its own section:

a) its kind of long

b) The contract dispute strongly relates to Magazine. As such, it is likely to be edited or changed. With LQ broken out, there is less chance of things getting commingled.

c) LQ represents a break/new beginning: new contract, new label etc. I like to add where the Wha-Wha! comes from in Barracuda (aka Alien Attack), but it is hard to explain (and not Nancy oriented, but it is iconic).

d) from wiki barracuda: In 2009, it was named the 34th best hard rock song of all time by VH1. Cool, but no source. I'll see if I can find one...another top 100, I am sure.

...and I still wonder what RITA Wilson is doing in the Hollywood Walk of Fame photos.

Again, I have nothing to complain about there.

On the whole, there needs to be a balance, I think. - Yes, I was going to say something about "conflicting aims". (Now I'm glad I didn't!) Also, I've changed my POV: I now think "converting the masses" is more important than "preaching to the converted". (As long as you don't end up driving the converted away ... )

And yes, I agree with your comments like: "For example, Andes and Carmassi were hired a bit later than your edit implies".

(P.S. I particularly agree with: "not a big deal until Andes' #1 fan comes along.")

Yes, splitting out LQ is a good idea.

(I'd love a pic of her playing the Crazy intro with her face all intent: "If I screw up, Ann will shave my head..."). - Me too. Problem is, so would a lot of people - if such a photo exists, the person who took it probably wants to make a mint from it, and thus has the copyright sealed up tighter than Fort Knox!

To clarify, please feel free to make whatever changes you think will improve the article, (including reverting some of my edits). Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 05:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

BTW: Sadly, my Xmas Holiday is coming to an end, and I need to spend more time in he real world. I'll still be around, but I won't be spending 12-hours-per-day editing wikipedia ... (Unless I can convince someone to pay me at the same rate as my day job - but I'm not optimistic about the likelihood of that happening.) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 05:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Which time zone are you in? Pdfpdf (talk) 05:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Early Wilson family info

I eventually found what I was looking for, except it isn't what I thought it was - it's a bio about Ann. Still, it's not entirely useless:

http://www.webcitation.org/69mnmFB6s - also http://www.biography.com/people/ann-wilson-17189468?page=1

... Her mother, Lou, was a concert pianist and choir singer, and her father, John, a former Marine, was also a musician and singer who once led the U.S. Marine Corps band. ... Due to their father's military career, the Wilson family moved frequently. They lived near American military facilities in Panama and Taiwan before settling in Seattle, Washington, in the early 1960s. In order to maintain a sense of home no matter where in the world they were residing, the Wilsons turned to music. "On Sunday we'd have pancakes and opera," Nancy Wilson recalled. "My dad would be conducting in the living room. We'd turn it way up and rock. There was everything from classical music to Ray Charles, Judy Garland, Peggy Lee, bossa nova, and early experimental electronic music." ... Throughout high school Wilson performed alongside Nancy, a talented guitarist, in short-lived local bands such as Rapunzel and Viewpoint. ...

That bio pointed me to a bio about Nancy, which in many places is almost identical, (but the grammar is better!) Additional bits cover stuff more-specific-to-Nancy - the stuff about the family is much the same. Additional bits:

http://www.biography.com/people/nancy-wilson-20631965

... bossa nova, and early experimental electronic music. I learned a tremendous amount early on." Wilson later remembered that she first set her heart on becoming a rock star at the age of nine, when she watched the Beatles' legendary debut performance on The Ed Sullivan Show. ... Studying Mel Bay's classic book Guitar Chords and learning to play Beatles' songs by ear, by the time she reached adolescence Wilson was already a highly accomplished player of the instrument, taking especially to acoustic guitar. ... While Nancy was in junior high and Ann was in high school, the Wilson girls performed in local bands such as Rapunzel and Viewpoint. After her sister graduated from high school, Nancy Wilson performed often on Seattle's coffeehouse circuit as a solo artist. After graduating from high school herself in 1972, she declined an invitation to join her sister's band Heart in Vancouver, instead enrolling at tiny Pacific University in Forest Grove, Oregon to study art and German literature. However, under constant prodding from her older sister to come to Vancouver and join Heart — who had already established themselves as one of Vancouver's premier bands — Wilson finally relented in 1974, leaving school to join her sister and her bandmates in Canada.

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:40, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

responses 2

Hi. Did you see/get the first "response" block post? I ended up with a double post one as a change list and another responding/answers to several Qs you had because of the apparent time diff. I had a question in one. I am US CST / GMT - 5

I was tired last night and "spoiler" isnt exactly right. A few look/act more like summaries than proper titles.
The Crazy intro pic I was thinking of, was a snap of a music video from the period (back when she looked/dressed like Like Skywalker). Since it is minimal etc would something like that work? (I have had bad luck with pics for Egyptology entries).
The new titles and layout looks much better! I still think there are too many - almost a screen and a half - but at least they are concise.
The pics interspersed look good too!
Looking at the Diffs, I have to do some wordsmithing though. Ex

I only think they did small small stuff before the 2002 tour. A friend of mine happened see them about that time, but I am not sure if it was as Heart or Lovemongers.

Heart/Hocus Pocus...They flipped back and forth a bit. Before Ann joined they were Heart, then White Heart, then Heart, then Hocus Pocus when Ann joined. She does not give a date (it is a story) but says "I turned 21 in June 1971 and Hocus Pocus had become my life." She is marking the (approx) time she met Michael. By time the others "eventually" moved to Canada, the name was back to White Heart. When they reformed in Canada they went with Heart. So Ann's duration with Hocus Pocus was only until she left. Once they drew out the logo, it stayed Heart.

Army was actually a different band Fossen and Fisher had before.

It looks like Ann joined about 1970:"we toured the northwest that next year" is a phrase I found just before the June 1971 ref. I take Ann's word for it...he was clearly the love of her (young) life.

I never dwelled too much on this in the original, because some needed to be told since it is the band Nancy would eventually "take over", a more precise tick-tock would be more relevant to the Heart entry.

Question: Do we need the hidden question re Rod Stewart here? Isnt that a Rod problem? We have 4 or 5 sources for the Montreal date.

It looks like you hit the save button on your first edit yesterday only 7 minutes after I went to bed!

(GMT+10.5)-(GMT-5.0)=15.5 hours does not facilitate synchronous communication!!!

BTW: As I'm returning to the office tomorrow after a month of doing as little as possible of the things I didn't want to do, I'm going to be rather busy today, so this response will be briefer than would be my normal response.

Hi. Did you see/get the first "response" block post? I ended up ... - Are you refering to (sub-)sections User talk:Plutonix#Reposnse(s) and User talk:Plutonix#Nancy Wilson edits? If so, yes thank you - the first made (and led to) some enjoyable reading!

I had a question in one. - Sorry - I thought I'd got them all. Which question are you referring to?

The Crazy intro pic ... Since it is minimal etc would something like that work? - Unhelpful answer: It depends.

Longer answer, but no more helpful: To quote somebody else "It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it." It can be done, but to avoid the Nazi's, it has to be done carefully. (i.e ALL the "i"s MUST have dots, and ALL the "t"s must be crossed.) I still find it a tedious and unenjoyable process. I don't have time to go into the detail right now.

Question: Do we need the hidden question re Rod Stewart here? - No. (I removed it 18+ hours ago.)

Isnt that a Rod problem? - Dunno, but it's no longer one of OUR problems!

More later. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 01:30, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New Edits

I added some color here and there, some fact fixes, added refs and added Mom's passing.

The only content edit of yours I do not like is cropping the HEART album and These Dreams part. It was their biggest album ever and the story is Nancy-centric as lead singer of the single. It was The Pinnacle of their musical carers and it is worth dwelling on it a bit.

I am actually in favor of expanding it slightly with Nancy color: one of those Dying Wish places got a hold of Heart and told them a girl's dying wish was to meet them. The girl was at the original taping of the single and died afterwards and was buried wearing a Heart jacket and cap...'Its the way I'd want to go'. The song is dedicated to her in the liner notes. I think that is a neat/touching story.

...Or (this is more like fan trivia): Nancy had a cold/sore throat at the taping and hated the results (her voice cracks in various places ("every second of the night"..."every moment I'm awake"). The execs and such thought it added something (me too) and used that session for the chorus at least. (I always thought it was because it was a tad outside her range).

I am going to revert both parts so I have a stub to be able to add the Dying Wish story to. I am doing this last so that the diffs are easy to find, if you have some compelling reason for cropping it. If time allows, I'll add the Hess story.

That all sounds good to me. As I've already said, "please feel free to change anything". Pdfpdf (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Leukemia story

Ok, I tweaked a few things and added the leukemia story. DO be careful with any wordsmithing of it: it is mostly a collection of phrases/sentences from a 2 page story.

The HEART and Dreams sections weren't as "mangled" as I thought...they look very different without the album cover there. I did re-add some text which explains a little of how the album became a hit...they make a point of that in the book.

I also combined MARRIAGE and Bad Animals...the 2 paras are linked, so I moved the one.

all in all, I think it looks pretty good. if you want to add a list of her lead vocals to the CREDITS section, here they are:

Treat Me Well
Nada One
Raised On You
The Situation
One Word
Love Mistake
These Dreams
There's the Girl
Strangers of the Heart
Stranded
I Want Your World to Turn
Ring Them Bells (shared lead with Ann and Layne Staley (of Alice in Chains))

Trivia: Originally recorded with Chris Cornel of Soundgarden, but his label would not allow the release

Will You Be There (In the Morning)
Things
I Need the Rain
Led to One
I'm Fine
Hello Moonglow
Hey You
Sunflower
All For Love (Soundtrack from Say Anything movie)

(and, no, I had to look the list up) List doesnt include FANATIC. there are also 3 on Hope and Glory but they are duets.

if you want to add a list of her lead vocals to the CREDITS section - Have I become completely predictable?! Yes, I would like to add such a list.

To use the SoCal venacular: Later, dude. Pdfpdf (talk) 01:37, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Shelly Siegel

A) Spelling

At one point in the article it pops up as Shelly Siegal - probably due to me making a typing error!.

B) Gender

Until I started writing this, I had only seen one gender specific reference, and that stated "she". (I guess I'd better dig it out)
However, google comes up with masculine references (plural), and photos (plural). See E) & F) for more info.

C) Dreamboat Annie

I wonder why there are no credits for him on Dreamboat Annie?

D) Mushroom

You probably already knew, but I didn't. There were two mushrooms in Vancouver:

http://www.cashboxcanada.ca/shelley-siegel-%E2%80%93-canadian-success-story-not-be-forgotten -
- Mushroom Records was a recording label company founded in Vancouver, British Columbia Canada, by brothers Wink and Dick Vogel in 1974.
- Mushroom Studios, a Vancouver recording studio, is a separate operation from the record label. The studio was built by Aragon Records in 1966, 8 years before the formation of the Mushroom label. The studio was also known as Can Base Studios (derived from its principal investor) during the early 1970s when the Mushroom record label began.
- The studio and label formed a partnership during the label's existence, and many of its albums were recorded there. In the mid 1970s the studio employed producer Mike Flicker and musician Howard Leese, who began to work with Heart.
- Heart got their start in 1963 in Seattle, Washington formed by bassist Steve Fossen and brothers Roger Fisher (guitar/mandolin) and Mike Fisher (producer and sound engineer). The group went by the name The Army and White Heart, before settling on just Heart in the early 1970s.
- Ann Wilson joined the group in 1970. Romance sprang up between her and Mike and she came along when they moved to Vancouver to avoid the Vietnam draft.
- Soon after the move, Ann’s sister Nancy Wilson joined the group. Mirroring her sister, Nancy became romantically involved with Roger.
- The band gained a following in Canada and was signed to the small Canadian label Mushroom, which issued their debut album, ‘Dreamboat Annie’, in 1976. ‘Dreamboat Annie’ was recorded with new members’ guitarist/keyboardist Howard Leese and drummer Michael Derosier.
- With the success of Heart, Shelley Siegel went after his ultimate dream. He moved to Los Angeles, California and opened an American office on Sunset Boulevard, right across from the famous Tower Records.

E) Role - wikipedia search

Every reference seems to have a different role for him! (Some have several!) (None of these from wikipedia makes any reference to gender)

Mushroom Records (Canada) - "Shelly Siegel was the label's Vice-president and creative director." ... "Siegel suddely died due to an aneurysm on 17 January 1979".
Howard Leese - "Leese had his first recording contract with Ed Cobb's Sunburst label[1] at the age of 15, as the band The Zoo with friend and drummer Mike Flicker. Later, when Flicker went to work for Jack Herschorn at Mushroom Studios in Vancouver, Leese went with him as a production manager. While there, he and Shelly Siegel started Mushroom Records."
Magazine (Heart album) - "The change in labels resulted in a prolonged legal battle with Mushroom's creative director Shelly Siegel."
Iain Matthews - "Label-owner Shelly Siegel died suddenly in 1979, leaving the label rudderless."
Breakdown in Paradise - "but the death of Mushroom Records head Shelly Siegel in January 1979"
Heart (band) - "Mushroom Records, which was managed by Shelly Siegel.[13] ... "prolonged legal battle with Siegel.[2]"
- [2] Ankeny, Jason, "Heart: biography", Allmusic, archived from the original on 28 July 2012 - http://www.webcitation.org/69UyaJ3Pw- Reference says NOTHING about anything, much!!
- [13] Can-Base, labels thriving, says Seigel, promo rep", Billboard 86 (20): 54, 8 May 1974, ISSN 0006-2510

F) Role - google search - see also D).

http://everybodyishotisdead.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/shelly-siegel.html - "I want to introduce you to Shelly Siegel. Shelly started Mushroom Records (with Mike Flicker and Howard Leese) in Vancouver around the time I was shooting there. I don't remember exactly how I met Shelly but I shot the pictures at the press event for him." The rest is also interesting.
http://www.cashboxcanada.ca/shelley-siegel-%E2%80%93-canadian-success-story-not-be-forgotten - "It was on one of these Wednesdays in my Montreal MD days that I met Shelley Siegel. At around 5’ 6", with bushy long hair, he came flying into my office, waving a single of Heart, and their latest release ‘Magic Man’. He had a high voice and a slight frame, so in my haste to get to him, I assumed he was a girl, and accidentally said, ‘Nice to meet you, Sheila’. Shelley never let me forget that moment. He was a true ‘record guy’, wouldn’t take no for an answer, complained that he was having issues ‘breaking’ the single on AM Radio, as ‘Magic Man’ was an astonishingly long song (5:35 minutes) for that era, and AM refused to play anything that was over 3:00 minutes. Siegel was refusing to shorten the song, as the issue was the amazing guitar riff that actually ‘made’ the song. (Rumour had it that Siegel ended up ‘convincing’ the guys that filled the jukeboxes to put ‘Magic Man’ in the slot for ‘Brown Sugar’ by The Rolling Stones."
- In 1977, Heart moved to CBS affiliate Portrait. This didn’t go well with Mushroom owner Shelly Siegel,
http://mushroom-studios.com/fr_history.cfm - Mushroom Studios History (Note: Studio)
- Includes a subsection on Mushroom Records
etc.

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My sandbox

Just so you know:

I have had a long term interest in there being decent articles for Steve Fossen and Mike Fisher (musician), and I now also want to do one on Shelly Siegel. Hence, I want a separate place to accumulate info about them. Further hence, because there's hours of work summarised and recorded above that will be very useful if I ever actually write those articles, I've made my own copy of the above at User talk:Pdfpdf/Archive-Nancy-Wilson.

Yet another hence, if any of the above sections are getting in your way (e.g. #Shelly Siegel, #Early Wilson family info this section), please feel free to prune/delete them. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Changing subject: In Feb-April 2008, an IP editor popped up insisting that Mike Flicker and Mike Fisher are the same person.
If you get bored one day, you might, (or might not), find User talk:Pdfpdf/Archive06-Mike-Flicker entertaining. --Pdfpdf (talk) 14:01, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]