User talk:Silence of Järvenpää/Work (†)

Ha!

I wasn't ignoring you, but planning to bring it up later in June! Glad to see this excellent start though. I'm really interested in writing more about the "music" sections of these composition articles as I haven't done that a lot in the past. Aza24 (talk) 22:41, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Ohhhh! Well, you know, a fear of doing the music sections is what has kept me from working on the Sibelius symphonies (and is what caused me to stall out on Kullervo)! ... so, if you're ever interested in writing music sections, boy have I got a project for you! ... :) [At present, I loath those articles; they're more floating musical examples than prose.] ~ Silence of Järvenpää 23:08, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Can you picture it ... off in the hazy horizon? A Good Article Category with the seven symphonies + Kullervo + Brian's work on Symphony No. 8 + the Discography of Sibelius symphony cycles ... amazing! But beyond a mere mortal like me who is not trained in music or music theory. Nevertheless, I could write the History (Composition / Premiere) sections virtually in my sleep. ~ Silence of Järvenpää 02:52, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Oooo this proposed teamwork of sections could be rather promising. I've been meaning to study Sibelius's symphonies anyways... let's see what the summer holds. Ping me next weekend (the June 10th) if I don't bring it up sooner...! Aza24 (talk) 06:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

It really does sound ideal, provided we're both willing to commit to such a longterm and multi-article project. And it would seem that I get two wonderful things out of it: 1) improved articles for compositions that are very dear to me; and 2) the happiness of 'sharing' Sibelius's magisterial, brooding symphonies with a friend and classical music fellow traveler! I have already begun sandboxes for each symphony, fyi: (No. 1), (No. 2), (No. 3), (No. 4), (No. 5), (No. 6), and (No. 7). I would prefer to use American English, given that's how I have written existing Sibelius articles (although, someone randomly changed my work on the Sibelius symphony cycle discography to British English ... sigh), as well as the citation style I have established (many characteristics of which I learned from you).

I do think that, if a GA category were to be our end goal, we might have to therefore revise Brian's work on the Eighth Symphony to conform, right? (I have also been wanting to change the photos on that article, but I am afraid of touching an article that stands somewhat as a memorial to a deceased editor). Anyway, something to consider.

Finally, if I may, I recommend to you the following interpretations of the Sibelius cycle: (1) Osmo Vänskä and the Lahti Symphony Orchestra on BIS; and (2) Paavo Berglund and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe on Finlandia. Each is tremendous! Just please, please, please do not let your introduction to Sibelius be the disaster that is Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic on Sony Classical, nor the bore that is Colin Davis and the Boston Symphony Orchestra on Decca (to this day, I don't understand why the Brits like to praise Davis's limp interpretations). ~ Silence of Järvenpää 16:27, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for all of this! Happy to oblige by your formatting preferences and such, and will steer clear of Bernstein and Davis!

Please note that you have full license to change mass revert major alterations of a an article's dialect and citation style, per WP:ENGVAR and WP:CITEVAR, particularly when it is already fully established as in Discography of Sibelius symphony cycles.

I think we can definitely give it a shot with the first few symphonies and see how it goes. Should we try to finish the Waltz first? Happy to give the music section a go in the next few days. Aza24 (talk) 05:37, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

@Aza24: Hi! It's nice to hear from you. All this sounds good, except for the fact that I am worried I work much more slowly than you do! As such, you'll just have to have some patience with me. I think we should indeed finish Valse triste before beginning the symphonies mega-project, because I am getting to the point of having far too many unfinished/in-progress Sibelius drafts (as I'm sure you've noticed)!

I think I would like to next, after Valse triste, finish the LoC that is like 89% done! Indeed, I know you left that project because data entry on obscure piano pieces of a random composer is tedious and boring, but ... now that the project has advanced beyond that stage and indeed is about sourcing and the overarching write-up (two of your favorite things to do, I've gathered), you might like back in, especially for the FLN?

Then, after the LoC, I want to tackle the symphonies with you. (Alternatively, you could start without me ... write the music section(s) ... and I could join later, do my work, and then we could jointly pursue the GAs.) Also, I have several sources on the symphonies that discuss the music in some depth, some of them quite rare. I'll make a list for you in the next day or so and if we cannot find all of them on that one website you shared with me (on finding Furujhelm for Water Droplets), I can make scans for you. Warmly, ~ Silence of Järvenpää 16:53, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

NOTES

Sourcing from Sibelius books

Hurwitz (2007)

"... turned out to be the bane of his musical existence. For the scene in which a sick mother dances with death, who has come to claim her ..., Sibelius wrote the incredibly famous Valse Triste. His publisher made a fortune selling it in any number of arrangements for domestic performance. However, Sibelius, who had sold the music for a pittance, never again experienced a similar popular success."

Layton (1992)

"Like Finlandia, it soon took the world by storm: Sibelius was to sell it to Fazer (and through them Breitkopf) on derisory terms, a decision he never ceased to lament until his dying day. "

"If the King Christian II suite was the first orchestral work by Sibelius to make its way into the concert halls of Europe, his next essay in the realm of theatre was destined to make his name a household word. This was the music to Kuolema (Death) ... It is in this context that Valse triste began the long life that took it into the teashops of Europe and America. It is difficult to imagine the effect this seductive piece made on its first appearance, so hackneyed has it become. It is associated now with so many improbable instrumental combinations that one tends to lose sight of the fact that it is an original / miniature, despite the obviousness of some of its musical procedures. The middle section is commonplace by the side of the main idea."

"In the immediate post-war years, lighter miniatures continued to pour from his pen: he had always longed to write another Valse triste and, more to the point, reap its full commercial harvest."

Johnson (1959)

"No great contribution to either Finnish or world literature, Death failed as a stage piece and would have been completely forgotten had Sibelius not composed some music for it."

"For more than five years, the music housed of Fazer & Westerlund had been publishing compositions by Sibelius and paying him rather handsomely ... A few months after the first performance of Death, Sibelius should Fazer & Westerlund two arrangements of his music for the opening scene, one for piano and the other for small orchestra, under th title Valse triste. He was paid one hundred marks for each arrangement and advanced an additional three hundred for the complete score to the drama. As the complete score failed to materialize, the cash advance was later deducted from future royalty payments. Apparently no one attached any importance to the publication of this little waltz. Certainly not Sibelius, who cheerfully pocketed his two hundred marks, feeling that he had been well rewarded for his effort. Over thirty years later, he declined to discuss Valse triste with his biographer / Ekman other than to say that he had written it in one week. Although some may feel that Sibelius's reluctance to discuss his most widely played composition resulted from a bad artistic conscience, the true explanation is more amusing. The sale had been an outright one, and Sibelius never received a penny of the enormous royalties his Valse triste must have earned through the years. In 1905, when the Finnish publishers sold all Sibelius rights to Breitkopf & Hartel—to their later regret—Valse triste was included in the transaction. The enterprising German firm soon issued it in arrangements for everything from military band to solo flute ... Sibelius, a poor businessman, as he later admitted, had unwittingly deprived himself of a small fortune. Yet Valse triste earned him rich rewards in terms of free publicity throughout the world. Thanks to its phenomenal popularity, audience were attracted to his less-known compositions. The composer recognized its great drawing power and frequently included it on his programs 'by popular request' when conducting abroad".

"Valse triste soon became even more maligned than Finlandia. Many have been at a loss to explain why it should have made the composer's name known to the many and injured his reputation in the eyes of the few."

"Sibelius did, however, attempt to write another money-making Valse triste, and this time he took care to protect the royalty rights. When the Finnish National Theatre presented a revised version of Death on March 8, 1911, two new numbers were added to the instrumental music. They were published during the same year as. Canzonetta for strings and Valse romantique for small orchestra, both opus 62. Breitkopf & Hartel advertised them as 'companion pieces to the celebrated Valse triste' and this may have induced Sir / Henry Wood to program them at a Queen's Hall concert in London. Their reception was distinctly on the cool side, and the critic for the Musical Times pronounced them 'delicately scored and mildly fanciful, but otherwise not interesting' ... The irritation betrayed the intent. before his retirement in 1926, he wrote many instrumental pieces of the same calibre as Valse romantique, and they all suffered similar fates. No more than any other composer was Sibelius able to analyze the chemistry of a 'hit'".

"Six Bagatelles for the piano, opus 97, Valse lyrique, and Valse chevaleresque (both are included in opus 96) hardly taxed his creative powers. Undoubtedly he hoped that one of these trifles might achieve he popularity of his Valse triste".

Levas (1972)

"Nature had blessed Sibelius with rich gifts of intellect but one talent—regarded by people today as most important—was for ever denied to him: he had absolutely no inclination towards economic affairs or any kind of practical though. His father had been helpless in these respects too. Dr Christian Sibelius frittered away his money in a free and easy manner and with no though for security, and he was perpetually head over heels in debt".

"Sibelius was unable to look after his interests to the best advantage, since the perpetual need for money had compelled him to sell all his compositions for lump sums. The Valse Triste and Finlandia alone would probably have made him a fortune if he had drawn up contracts on a royalty basis ... The unfavourable contracts from his youth from time to time appeared to depress him: no longer on his own account, but because they could have meant a good deal for his heirs ... One day when he was again talking about his 'bottomless stupidity' Mrs Sibelius came into the room and interrupted him: 'Why do you go on thinking about those unfortunate contracts? Nothing can be altered now. At the time you had no choice, you had to sell, for we had to live. The whole matter is no more of any consequence whatever. Every year everything is better, and we can thank God that all has turned out so well".

Sourcing from classical music generalist books

Mordden (1980)

"The blameless but shallow bit of salon music, part of the incidental score written for a play, Kuolema (Death), is, as the title says, a sad / waltz. (In the play it is less sad than macabre, for it is danced by a woman in the arms of Death, whom she has mistaken for her late husband.) It is a medley go waltz tunes lefty scored for theatre (small) orchestra, capped by three sad chords played by four solo violins."

"Sibelius is certainly no 'difficult' modern, overturning one's expectations of what is beautiful or useful in music. Some of his output is 'easier' than the rest, beautiful to the lay ear—and useful to the lazy mind. There are those who can hear Finlandia endlessly who will not willingly sit through the forbidding Fourth Symphony a second time."

Brockway & Weinstock (1958)

"With the exception of the Valse triste, the most widely popular of Sibelius' compositions, it [Finlandia] is stirring, noisy, and empty—good made-to-order patriotic music of the '1812' Overture variety. There is more apparent reason for its popularity than for that of the Valse triste, which is simply a respectable waltz that could have been written by any one of a hundred composers. It do doubt served its purpose adequately in a death scene in Kuolema."

Ewen (1954)

"Though this sentimental and often mawkish piece of music took Continental Europe by storm a few decades ago, it is one of the least creditable of Sibelius's works. But, since its popularity persists, it is deserving of comment."

Schoenberg (1970)

"Yet many professionals after World War II found Sibelius a dated bore. One reason was that music had taken a new departure. Schoenberg and Webern were the heroes; serialism had triumphed ... There may have been still another reason why Sibelius was scorned. Professionals look for consistency in a composer. They distrust a creator who constantly turns out music that is not on a high level, and are apt to regard as freaks those few works that do cause a ripple. How could the composer of Valse Triste and the Romance in D flat for piano be taken seriously? It cannot be denied that a large quantity of Sibelius's work—and he was a prolific composer—consists of ephemera ... Sibelius composed only a handful of works that have any chance of survival. Yet even that is a better average than many composers can show, and in years to come the chances are that the music of Sibelius will occupy a more prominent place than it currently does. At the time of his death he was suffering from a bad name and an aesthetic that ran counter to the age. If a new age does produce a resurgent romanticism or neoromanticism, Sibelius could come back with it. He did, after all, talk with an individual voice when he was at his best, and he deserves to occupy an honorable place among the minor composers."