I don't know whether the logo contains references to the Ustasha, but it is the actual logo of the club, and therefore it has a place in the article. Blackmissionary (talk) 23:13, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To user MelbCro. What do you want us to believe? These are only clours, red and white? I think you are not a Croatian, otherwise you would know the difference between Croatia from today and the Ustasha before 1945.
This [[1]] is the flag of Croatia, starting with a red square and ending with a red square.
And this [[2]] is the sign of Ustasha, starting with a white square and ending with a white square. There is no doubt, that this logo contains references to the Ustasha and to nazism.
MelbCro! remove the club logo again and you will be reported for vandalism and for spreading nazi symbols.
Once again! There are other logos at the French side and at the Croatian side.--Speidelj (talk) 15:36, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So? What is your point? Did you saw this source that I provided in the Jabuka article: [3] Since you can read Serbian, you will see that this source have a sentence that say "Jabuku su osnovali srpski ribari". This does not contradict to "your" source that use word "Slavic" instead. Serbs are Slavs, so this is same. Names Stoikov, Stepan, Pavao and Damian are Serb names. As for "coming for Romania", tell me which other Slavs instead Serbs lived in the territory of present-day Romania in that time? See here how many Serbs actually lived there in the 18th century: [4] Also, "your" source was published in 1988 while text from Pančevo municipality web site was added recently and it is well known that newer sources are usually more accurate because new historical documents appear during the time. As for people killed in Stratište, that info is again supported by the official source: [5] So what witnesses or evidences you speak about? Official municipal web site is best witness that we have. And, you spoke with Romanians from Jabuka? Excuse me, but who are you? Some famous person or what? Data used in Wikipedia articles should be supported by reliable sources not by your personal original research on the ground (or at least by what you believe to be an "research"). Such original research is in fact forbidden by Wikipedia policy. If you want to dispute data presented in official municipal web site please provide an reliable source that say that this data is not correct. And before you say again that these events did not happened, please examine all these sources that are confirming that they did: [6], [7], [8] After you examine them, we can talk again (This source, for example, claims that as much as 12,000 people was killed there). How some senile old villager with whom you spoke about this could be more valid source than all these published works? As for your claim that "Germans in Jabuka were not allowed to leave Banat", can you please specify source for that claim with exact quotation from the source? They were not allowed by whom? As for post-1948 issue related to Germans in Yugoslavia, I posted some data about that for you here, so, please read that: [9]PANONIAN06:12, 21 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Let’s start with the sources referring to “Stratište kod Pančeva grobnice dest hiljada rodoljuba“.I do not deny, that a shooting happened near Jabuka. According to former German residents it took place in autumn 1941, which is confirmed by the statements made by Romanian residents. You ask me who I am. I am not a famous person but I do not trust in every source given by a municipality. Where is the scientific content of the Panvevo web site? Looking for witnesses in Jabuka is not easy. The Germans were expelled and there are no Serbs or Macedonians who lived there in 1941. So the only witnesses are the Romanians from Jabuka. The contentious issue is: about 150 victims (confirmed by the residents) or 12.000 according to Pancevo web site?
Thanks for your cooperation. First source: On the other hand 146 jews who fled the convoy and were caught by local Germans were murdered in cold blood near the village of Jabuka. [[10]] page 65.
Next source: The place where the execution was carried out is very propitious. It lies directly no the road from Pancevo to Jabuka. (It was the 29th October). The execution site was secured by 12 riflemen. Digging the pits takes up the largest portion of time while the shooting itself goes very quickly (100 men, 40 minutes). [[11]]
Third source [[12]], page 46, report on the shooting of Jews and Gypsies by Oberleutnant Walther, : 100 men in 40 minutes.--Speidelj (talk) 21:16, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I asked who you are because it is obvious that you conducting your own original research which is not allowed by Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia policy says that we should use data from reliable sources, not our own personal opinions. I do not see valid reason to consider presented sources unreliable. I certainly do not share your opinion about witness issue. Perhaps Serbs did not lived in Jabuka during WW2, but they lived in some neighboring places and they would certainly know about that event. Also, the place where civilians were killed was not in Jabuka itself, but in vicinity of the village, which means that residents of Jabuka would not be better witnesses than residents of neighboring places. Finally, witnesses of German war crimes were often captured German soldiers who participated in war events and who elaborated these events in post-war trials. So, I do not see that there is any witness problem related to this issue. I can agree in one thing: authors of Pančevo municipal web site did made mistake because they did not specified source for presented data, but nevertheless, official municipal web sites are generally reliable and they would not use informations from unreliable sources. Further, data about German war crimes in Jabuka is confirmed by other sources that I presented. Also, you did not used the right sources and right quotations from given list, so I will do that for you: Source 1: "In October and November 1941 the nazis shot 5000 Jews and Gypsies and then buried them in common graves between Rancevo and Jabuka in Banat", Source 2: "Stratište kod Pančeva grobnice dest hiljada rodoljuba" (or in English: "Stratište near Pančevo, the grave of 10,000 patriots, written by one Serb and one Hungarian historian), Source 3: "Small Marsh near Pančevo where perhaps as many as twelve thousand people were murdered by fascist squads in 1941-44, including 6-7 thousand Jews from Vojvodina, Serbia and Hungary" (Published by Institute of Jewish Affairs, World Jewish Congress). So, this is quite enough for confirmation of reliability of Pančevo municipal web site and especially the source published by Institute of Jewish Affairs and World Jewish Congress cannot be discredited as unreliable. So, if you have any reliable source that say something different than this, please present it. PANONIAN05:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply. There are sources referring 100 people, 150, 5000, 10000 or 12000. But we just can not calculate the average. As long as you have been living in the Vojvodina, why don’t you simply ask the newspaper Pancevac? Stratište used to be called „Jabukaer Ried“. And there were no houses, no water tower no buildings at all, like in the photo. About the Germans who were not allowed to leave Banat, read this: [[13]] File:Evakuierung im Banat.jpgGeheimer Führerbefehl--Speidelj (talk) 17:30, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is difference between sources that say that 100-150 people was killed during a single event and sources that say that 10-12,000 people was killed during entire 1941-1944 period. These sources are not contradicting one to another. So, there is nothing "average" here - we just have to see about what period exactly each source is speaking. For example, if source say that in 29 October 1941 100 victims were killed then that source is relevant only for number of victims in 29 October 1941, not in entire 1941-1944 period. And why should I ask people from newspaper Pančevac about the event? I work in media too and I know that journalists are not best source of information. Much better sources are google books that I presented. Also regarding witness problem, I told you that captured German sources were very often the best witnesses. Some of them, who were sentenced by Yugoslav courts to smaller punishments (few years in prison) recognized their guilt and testified against their supervisors. So, really, we do not need to have local population in the area to have witnesses of the events. As for German Wikipedia article, I am not going to read that because I do not consider that Wikipedia article is an reliable source. Nevertheless, I investigated the issue by myself and there was indeed order from Germany that Germans should not leave Banat, but only some of them obeyed that order. The others did left. PANONIAN06:41, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But there was only one shooting in Jabuka and this happened in autumn 1941. You can find sources in Germany or in the USA for every massacre that triggered the German army or the SS in Yugoslavia but not for 10-12000 people in Jabuka. Where are the bodies? Where are the witnesses?
Please quote a reliable source that say that "there was only one shooting in Jabuka in autumn 1941". For example, this source says that 146 Jews were killed near Jabuka, but it is obvious that subject elaborated by that source are not events in Jabuka but fate of Jews from one single convoy. This source certainly do not say that it was a single killing at this location. So, if you have sources for your claims, please present them. I presented reliable sources that are fulfilling verifiability policy of Wikipedia and I am not obligated to provide witness list or pictures of bodies from mass graves. If Source Published by Institute of Jewish Affairs and World Jewish Congress says that there were 12,000 victims I see no reason not to trust to that source (So far, I did not saw a single source that say that total number of victims was smaller than 10,000 - if such source is provided then we can talk about it). Besides that, 10-12,000 victims is small number compared with 1.7 million victims of Nazi occupation in whole of Yugoslavia. PANONIAN08:59, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And here are your witnesses: [14] - Quotation from page 14: "Jevrejska opština Pančevo je obeležila Jom Hašoa. Grupa članova položila 21. aprila venac na stratište Jabuka u neposrednoj blizini grada u kojem je u Holokaustu stradalo oko 12.000 Jevreja, Roma i drugih. Da bi podaci o ovom stravičnom zločinu bili koliko je moguće potpuni, Jevrejska opština Pančeva moli sve čitaocima Jevrejskog pregleda i članove jevrejske zajednice Srbije da joj pošalju kakav dokument u vezi stratišta „Jabuka“ koji bi im u tome pomogao i omogućio da utvrde tačan broj žrtava i njihova imena. O celom događaju Opština ima samo dva dokumenta, svedočenja zarobljenih nemačkih oficira. Jedan se odnosi na samo streljanje i organizaciju ubijanja žrtava, a drugi na uklanjanje tragova zločina." So, German soldiers were witnesses, as I already said. PANONIAN09:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But what did they tell about the number of victims? Why don’t they present their documents? I understand, that they still keep searching for witnesses.
With the last remark you've disqualified yourself. The “small number” of 12,000 Jewish victims, compared to 1.7 million Yugoslav victims? 1.7 million Yugoslav victims, compared with 6 million Jewish victims in Europe. What is this trivialization intended to mean?? 1.7 million Yugoslav victims? Where do they come from? Have you studied the censuses after World War II?
In May 1945, in his Ljubljana speech, Marshal Tito had already stated that Yugoslavia lost 1.7 million of its population during the Second World War. The Yugoslav government submitted the number of 1,706,000 as the official death toll to the Paris International Reparation Commission in 1946. The aforementioned Yugoslav Governments Reparation Commission document did not submit any detail on which the estimate was based.[1] However, the regime turned the estimates of the demographic losses, calculated by Vladeta Vuckovic (later a mathematics professor in the USA )into the scientific data on the actual losses, "either out of ignorance, or with an aim to deceive, although the scientifically substantiated figure was somewhat above one million." We cannot suppose that at the time, in 1945 and 1946, anyone had in mind the consequences which the first high estimates would cause to the Yugoslav community. They were probably fabricated with an aim to show the greatness and contribution of the Yugoslav liberation movement to the world, and to provide a basis for submitting a reparation request to the major occupying forces (Germany and Italy) However, in 1952 it was already evident that the requests were considerably over-estimated, and that they could not form the basis for reparation. In 1964 The Yugoslavian government declared 597.223 listed victims following a Grerman request, including Jasenovac, Sajmiste and Bleiburg. Most of the Yugoslavian victims were killed by Yugoslavians. [2]The death toll of 1,706,000, however, remained protected by the state authorities, until Marshal Tito's death in 1980.--Speidelj (talk) 23:16, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Why don’t they present their documents?"
Present where? Regarding your question from where Yugoslav victims come, I will tell you: many of my cousins were murdered during WW2 by German fascists in Syrmia (the whole villages were destroyed), so your question is at least insulting. Whether it was 1.7 million victims or around million is completely irrelevant. PANONIAN12:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but what is your point? That is part of the document that was issued in 13.10.1941 and that speaks about single event in October 1941. It says nothing about total number of victims in whole 1941-1944 period. PANONIAN15:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, source that mention Jews killed in Jabuka says that they were also brought from other parts of Vojvodina and from Hungary, which were not declared „judenfrei“. Also „judenfrei“ declaration does not mean that area was really „judenfrei“ since many Jews were hiding and were captured and killed later. As for Sremska Mitrovica, I tried to make text written in more NPOV manner, but I would need to see some source that says that Germans from Banat were brought there before inclusion of that data into article. Or you can include that data by yourself if you have source. User who added that data into article did not specified from where these Germans originated. PANONIAN20:41, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Liquidation Camp „Svilara“ (Silk Factory) at Syrmian Mitrovitz/Sremska Mitrovica
Conversion of the former silk spinning mill “Svilara” to a concentration camp for able-bodied and unfit to work ethnic Germans.
Established: Beginning August 1945
Number of Internees: average always exceeding 1,200 people.
Duration of camp: beginning August 1945 to May 1947 (21 months).
Casualties: about 2000 (1033 documented by name)
Main causes of death: starvation, typhus and dysentery, freezing to death.
In April 1945, after the retreat of the German and Croatian military forces from the western frontier area of Syrmia additional Danube Swabians from Syrmia were added. The camp in the “Svilara” was established at the beginning of August1945 and was henceforth fully occupied by ethnic Germans from Batschka and Banat. At about the same time the partisans dissolved the central camp Kalvarienberg near Zemun. In contrast to the liquidation camps of the Batschka and Banat, the internees at he Svilara contained not only unfit to work but also mainly able-to-work Danube Swabians. Most were needed for work in the City itself, however, many also were conscripted to work on the farms and in the Vrdnik coal mine. The term “liquidation camp” is justified because, as evident from the personal experience reports, the inmates were supposed to be killed by whatever means. Children were separated from the women and housed in a different building situated 400 metre away from the main camp One day they were picked up by trucks. Nobody knows where they were taken. Camp food was bread of coarsely ground corn (150 gram) and “Einbrennsuppe”, a watery flour soup. The rations, however, were often not fully allocated. Starting the middle of November 1945 dysentery and typhus epidemics broke out in the camp. The daily mortality rate increased rapidly. Specifics: At the beginning of December 1945 72 women fit for work from Sekitsch (Batschka) were taken to the Svilara. By the end of March 1946, there were only twelve still alive. Of the 69 woman, who arrived on December 15th, 1945, from Betschmen (Banat), only eleven survived. 1033 casualties are recorded by name in volume IV of the documentary series “Leidensweg der Deutschen im kommunistischen Jugoslawien”.At the end of April 1947 the remaining unfit-to-work people were taken to Rudolfsgnad (Knicanin). The able-to-work Germans were sent to Sremski Jarak.--Speidelj (talk) 22:53, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have that book. Can you point to exact page where this info can be read? I am currently busy with some things, but I will see to correct data in S. Mitrovica article in day or two. PANONIAN18:40, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I am home now, and I am looking that book, but it have only 192 pages in total. Are you sure about page number? By the way, I have edition from 2003, not from 1996. PANONIAN15:21, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Speidelj, I believe that problematic issue was not existence of the camp in Mitrovica, but question whether Germans from Syrmia or from Banat were located in that camp. Book that I have do have a time-table, but there is no mention of Mitrovica there. Also, two sources that you provided are not clarifying from where these Germans in camp originated. You posted here some text about the camp, so can you say from which source you took that text. I think that this text is confusing - one part of the text say that "additional Danube Swabians from Syrmia were added" and another part say that it was "fully occupied by ethnic Germans from Batschka and Banat". So, did Germans from Syrmia (and Mitrovica) were also located in that camp or not? That is basic problem here. PANONIAN09:47, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"additional Danube Swabians from Syrmia were added" to the retreat of the German and Croatian military forces. However, some Germans stayed in S. Mitovica. Those remaining Germans from Mitrovica were sent to several camps , since Svilara did not exist, yet. If some of them returned to Svilara, is not proved, but there were Garmans from Srem, Backa and Banat. See “Genocide of the Ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia 1944 – 1948, München 2006, page 118.
Note: In 2004 the “Drustvo za nemacku saraddnju, Beograd, translated and edited this book in Serbian language. Title: Genocid nad nemackom manjinom u Jugoslaviji 1944 -1948. ISBN 86-902081-2-7.--Speidelj (talk) 17:39, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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