User talk:Stephen C Carpenter

Edmund Snow Carpenter article

Hello. You keep changing in the Edmund Snow Carpenter article the date of Edmund Snow Carpenter's tenure at Cal State Northridge from the factual "1957" to "1959" and you didn't cite any sources. The 1957 date is stated in at least two works cited which you erased out of the text. Please don't change it unless you have a formal cited source for the material. I've changed it back. Thanks. --- Wikiklrsc (talk) 03:33, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I am Ted Carpenter's eldest son, Stephen C Carpenter. I was with my dad and brother Rhys when we moved to Northridge. The two other sources have an incorrect date of 1957 because I believer they both got the date from a NY Times magazine article written by Harald Prins, wife, Bunny McBride. Just yesterday, Lorraine Spiess, my father's official biographer and archivist emailed me the following information.

"Those Wiki battles are absurd, and for some reason I can just hear Ted roaring in his inimitable way: "Jeeeeeessssuuusss." Am sure we've both recoiled on occasion when Ted let that rip! The last time was when I tried to help him rise from his bed to come down to dinner. He was utterly annoyed at me for that, after all he was the mentor and elder. But I'd love to hear it now.

There are Dorothy Lee letters addressed to Ted at his UofT office in 1959, and the letters' text also confirms the time for the move. I took photocopies of the address with the stamp because I knew it remained an issue if we need further documentation. Again, I apologize that I perpetuated the error in my piece for the catalogue. Fortunately I did catch the similar 1950 CBC error from the Prins/Bishop piece in time, although we were already in galleys at that point. Do have some possible theories about how these two errors arose. In both cases, earlier published dates are factually wrong, but may possibly suggest some preparatory activities by Ted prior to actual formal status."

So, I am afraid that based on my physical presence at the move, the confirming evidence of postal cancellation dates, and other evidence I must ask that you allow the correct date of 1959 stand. Harald Prins, Bunny McBride and others are changing their material to show the 1959 date. A 1957 date, not only being incorrect, throws off the entire timeline of his work in Northridge, but it raises the question of how his work from 1957 to 1959 all emanates from Toronto, while you would have him in Northridge.

Sincerely,

Stephen C Carpenter

Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 14:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I am adding this as an after thought. Since Wikipedia maintains the anonymity or the contributors, and you seem to show a great interest in my father's works and bio. I suspect we may have met each other in the past. Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 14:45, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I don't think we know each other. I attended some lectures given by Edmund Carpenter in New York City in the 1980s and spoke with him at them casually. I don't know if you were there. There was no mention at the lecture. With all due respect, anyone can say they are anybody on the internet. I assume, in good faith, that you are Stephen C. Carpenter, the son of the late Edmund Snow Carpenter. Others might not assume that due to impostors on the internet. Let's say you are one of his sons if you'll pardon the phraseology. Carpenter's biographer's comment you show ("The Wiki battles are absurd ..." &c.) are untoward and in principle irrelevant. We cited proper sources. There were no corrigenda to the cited articles on the date of 1957. If there was an error one should contact the authors or the publication or write to the journals or sources on the web to correct them. Has Edmund Carpenter's "biographer" written and published a biography you can cite formally? A check on online seems to show little about Ms. Lorraine Spiess save for Rock Foundation papers published with Edmund Carpenter. Can you cite Lorraine Spiess' published work or otherwise which can be used as a footnote to back the 1959 date overriding the 1957 date? That's necessary. It's not absurd to ask for quotable published sources. One can write to Cal State Northridge too. We can't cite anonymous communications on this forum, after all. One would like to say "Private communication with Stephen C. Carpenter" or "Private communication with Lorraine Spiess" etc. but that's not provable in our current medium of Wikipedia. We can make a temporary adjustment. Thanks and Bests. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 15:37, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello Bob,

Thank you in return for your response. There was no animus intended in the inclusion of Lorraine's use of one of my father's angry expressions. My father's biography and archive is currently being compiled. Rather than give you her email directly, which you might think was perpetuating some cabal of anonymity, I suggest you contact her and her mother at the Fitz Spies web site. They will both confirm the 1959 date. You may verify the following link by Googling Fritz Spies Archive. http://www.fritzspiessarchive.com/home.htm Fritz Spiess, you may recall was the film maker who accompanied my father on several of his trips to the Arctic. Lorraine may also be able to provide you with PDF's of the letters and cancellation marks. You may also contact Harald Prins at his email address of prins@ksu.edu An address that is verifiable by checking at KSU or is also listed on many of his online articles and may even be listed in his Wikipedia edits of my dad's bio I enclose a small snippet of his email of last night informing me that the next addition of his textbook, "The Essence of Anthropology", will be dedicated to my father. "Re the dates, yeah, ............. I'll also make the change back to how you have it. By the way, your Dad had proofed my ms before it was published to fact check. That 1957 date originally came from him, but it appears, based on what you say, he was wrong." My father entered into negotiations with Northridge in 1957, but we did not move until 1959. As I said, Harald with my statements and the letters from Dorthy Lee and other evidence will confirm the correct 1959 date. Since Harald is the source of your footnotes and references perhaps that single check will suffice. He is presently in Maine, but checks and responds to his KSU email address daily. If need be, I can put you in touch with other verifiable sources.

Sincerely,

Stephen C Carpenter

Hi Stephen. Thank you so very much for your kind reply and generosity of information. I got your email, thank you very much. We have to figure a strategy for this. I've left "1959" in the body of the article with a footnote saying some other sources published it as "1957". So with some more research we can come up with a prudent and agreeable ending. I might add that your father's lectures back in the 1980s which I attended were particularly interesting and his intellect and sophistication was admirable. Bests, thanks, and yours. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 19:07, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

These situations are tricky on their face, because of well-founded policy, which seems to make us use (in this case) incorrect dates. However common-sense can override the policy in non-contentious cases such as this. At the very least we should not promulgate material we know to be wrong, however well cited. Good luck with the longer term goal of straightening out the "reliable sources" themselves. Rich Farmbrough, 19:47, 8 July 2011 (UTC).

Thanks, Rich, for your help. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Stephen, I've added a footnote to the in-text date of 1959. The footnote reads "Note that in sources such as Prins (2001), the date is given as 1957. Stephen C. Carpenter, Edmund's son, has corroborated the 1959 date as accurate. His father was given an offer from the university in California in 1957 but they didn't move there from Canada until 1959." We can remove it later if necessary. And we do need a citation with "1959" in future. I'm just trying to make it clear so someone in future doesn't read Prins and re-change the date to 1957. Bests, Ever. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Bob and Rich,

Thank you so much for your kind consideration. I suspect you are correct in that it will be an endless task to straighten out the "reliable sources". As noted in my snippet from Lorraine in my initial response, she is trying to straighten out the data, and yet has to apologize because she perpetuated it in the catalog for the upcoming McLuhan Conference at which both she and Harald Prins will be speaking. The online material can be somewhat straight, then someone will read a print version and use the wrong information contained there. As an example you may want to reference the obit in the Houston Chronicle at http://houston.culturemap.com/newsdetail/07-04-11-anthropologist-edmund-snow-carpenter-curator-of-iarctic-realitiesi-exhibit-is-dead-at-89/ now compare that to the obit in the East Hampton Star at http://www.easthamptonstar.com/Obituaries/2011707/Edmund-Carpenter-88 Two obituaries in two respected print journals, each having a different age for my father. How is a reader supposed to know which is correct without calculating the age him/herself from the actual birth date? And if a newspaper editor can't do it, how can we expect a casual reader to do so?

Sincerely,

Stephen C Carpenter

Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 01:09, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

You're very welcome, Stephen. And thank you. Indeed, mistakes get propagated like "telephone stories". Soon they are accepted as fact rather than the original underlying truth. Anything more you have is appreciated. Best Wishes. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 03:22, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello Bob,

Understanding your need for an official reliable source, to reference and footnote, I contacted Lorraine Spiess and here is a snippet of here reply, "I'd written to Harald and John earlier today....since I can imagine they also feel upset about the error, as I do in my catalog piece. Naomi wrote back and kindly volunteered to check the official records at the university. So I think we can soon lay this matter to rest in a definitive manner." Naomi Bishop, is the wife of John Bishop, the visual anthropologist, who was a student, friend, and colleague of my father. Naomi was also a subsequent Dean of the Anthro. Dept. in Northridge. Thus we should soon have some official records of Northridge, which I will endeavor to send on to you. Thus supplying a correct and official record which you may cite. John Bishop's web site at http://www.media-generation.net/ has dvds of some of the early films that my father, Bess Hawes, Alan Lomax and others worked on while at Northridge. It also has a couple on the Further Lane project my dad and Addie worked on. That project is also the subject of an upcoming book titled "Further Lane" by Zak Powers, Robert A M Stern and Paul Goldberger. It is scheduled for publication next month, but is already listed at Amazon.

Best Whishes

Steve Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 15:52, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Steve. Many thanks for your kindest information and insights and also contacting relevant folks on this faux-conundrum. That's all excellent news and material. "Further Lane" sounds like quite a read and pertinent. It's also listed but no preview in Google Books. Further Lane at Google Books. Paul Goldberger is particularly brilliant, as a native born and raised New Yorker, I've read him for an eternity. I may change the language in the footnote again per your information. I don't want to make it a tempest in a teapot but I want to get it right, pro tempore. By the way, I was looking in an old dusty notebook of mine from the 1980s and your father's lectures. There were some amazing insights he transmitted. One particularly interesting was the "knots" in the Book of Kells were not random: he said they could be shown to produce music. Another note I had was "Primitive societies weren't so primitive: they didn't have money and so they simply cooperated with each other". He also spoke of the theory of games, especially with two opponents, and how they mostly could be traced to priests in various religions using them as a method to better understand deep things. Ah, but for the snows of yesteryear as Villon wrote in the 15th century. Snow hasn't changed much nor has yesteryear. Best Wishes. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 02:45, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello, again, Steve. I forgot to mention that I included your father in the Rehoboth Carpenter family article. He hadn't been cited in it as a notable descendent. ("Notable Carpenters of the Rehoboth Carpenter family"). Bests. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 03:12, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Here's the language of the footnote to 1959 in the article now: "Note that in sources such as Prins (2001), the date is given as 1957. Stephen C. Carpenter, Edmund's son, has corroborated the 1959 date as accurate. His father was given an offer from the university in California in 1957 but they didn't move there from Canada until 1959. Carpenter's prior collaborator, his present archivist and biographer, Lorraine Spiess, has made it clear that 1959 is the correct date according to multiple archival letters and documents." --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 03:30, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Bob,

It suddenly occurred to me that you might like to peruse the digital archives of "The Sundial". The student newspaper at Northridge. It is a bit clunky, but works. Click a link and the newspaper edition enlarges. There you will find articles and pictures of a very young Ted Carpenter. At least 20+ years younger than when you met him. The link is set to the results on my dad, but you can change the search terms and search for any of the names in your bio of my dad, who where at Northridge. I hope you will smile when you note the earliest articles are early 1960. Since you had met my father, I know you will realize he could not have been there for three years and no one noticed. However, I find it delightful that what is a non squabble about a date is resulting in a far more complete picture of my father in your bio. The link is

http://digital-library.csun.edu/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=all&CISOBOX1=Edmund%20Carpenter&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOOP2=exact&CISOBOX2=&CISOFIELD2=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOOP3=any&CISOBOX3=&CISOFIELD3=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOOP4=none&CISOBOX4=&CISOFIELD4=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOROOT=/UniversityArchives,/sundial&t=a&CISOSTART=1,1

I spoke to Rhys today, and he asked that I send his thank you's for your efforts.

Sincerely,

Steve

Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 23:12, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Again Bob,

I just receive an email from Lorraine which I believe is pertinent. It begins as follows:

"The new Wiki article is so much better than the previous version, again thanks for helping to correct the text. But there remains another important date error: "When public television took off in Canada with the launching of CBC-TV in 1950, Carpenter began producing and hosting a series of shows." As with the 1957 error, I understand Harald and John were given that date by Ted himself in an interview which is how it entered the record.

All the historical accounts - they are numerous - confirm that CBC-TV didn't launch until Sept 1952. So the Wiki entry on Ted really should be amended. As I've written you, I've been exploring various leads that Ted may have been involved in some experimental broadcasts prior to the official launch because of Ted's recollection of the 1950 date. But until we find some documentary evidence for that, and/or a number of detailed interviews with verifiable facts confirming that possibility, we should definitely amend to 1952 on Wiki. Since you've now developed a working relationship with the "gatekeeper" there, maybe you could ask him to change this. Thanks.

I also have some issues with the next paragraph which seems preserved verbatim from the previous version. I've always disliked the sentence: "Carpenter became intrigued by theoretical ideas then being developed by Harold Innis and Marshall McLuhan." It sounds like he just jumped on some preexisting bandwagon; he was more than just intrigued, it was Ted himself who developed some of the pivotal ideas in all of their collaboration, and as far as I know he met McLuhan shortly after his arrival in TO in 1948. In fact, we've recently confirmed that it was Ted, not McLuhan, who wrote the grant proposal to Ford for the seminar. Likewise, Ted was editor-in-chief for "Explorations." McLuhan was an associate editor. Do you think we should rock the boat - both with the Wiki guy and the McLuhan family - on changing that now, or wait until later? But it's Ted's Wiki page, and that entire paragraph in many ways underplays his very real contributions and leadership position in important areas of the collaboration, and in that sense is inaccurate."

Bob, I leave it to you. I am sure you can verify the CBC start up date by many online records. If you find Lorraine to be correct in this date, of 1952, I agree it should be corrected. As far as, 'rocking the boat with the Wicki guy', I leave that to your discretion. Perhaps in regards to the Ford grant, you might find a diplomatic manner of phrasing it. If you like I can supply you with Lorraine's private email address so that you may communicate directly with her. Just let me know so that I may tell her to expect queries from you. There are also a whole new series of articles on my father at this site. http://mcluhan.net/aggregator At some point in the future, you may consider revealing yourself to us, so that both the McLuhan family and the Carpenter family can recognize your efforts. I would not suggest you do it now as the McLuhan family definitely has the upper hand and we are the poor cousins.

Sincerely,

Steve

Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 23:49, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello Steve. Thanks so very much for the plethora of information and kindest words. I will digest it all fully soon. The CBC date ought to be easy to check. I promise to write you a note privately, not for ostensible recognition, but for a more decorous connection. Your late father was an amazing person as was McLuhan. One prays for more of such stalwart intellects and insightful people. Best Wishes, Ever. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 01:33, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello again (redux), Steve. I corrected the CBC-TV date in the article and I've read with interest all the other material you shared. Thanks! About Lorraine's point, it's a good one. But it has to be judiciously handled and cited. I'll fiddle with it. It doesn't surprise me at all. By the way, I've written you an email so I hope your junk filters don't relegate me to email Hades since according to most algorithms, "first email" from someone is suspect. Bests, Ever. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 03:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello Bob,

We have just heard back from Noami Bishop, a former dean at Northridge. Below is her reply, en toto, to Harald Prins, Lorraine Spiess, and me.

"Dear Lorraine, Harald and Stephen,
I heard back from the VP for Faculty Affairs concerning the dates of employment for Ted at SFVSC. She writes:
Here is the official public information on Ted Carpenter. Note: our records in Faculty Affairs would only show when he was officially hired on the tenure track -- no access to records as a Part Timer or as a Visiting Professor (PeopleSoft doesn't go back that far but the department may know):

Dates Employed: 1959-1969
Department: Anthropology
Appointed Dept. Chair in 1961
Ph.D. Univ. of Penn.

I also wanted to share something from Don Cameron, who is an old-timer from Valley State College and a faculty member who has served in many administrative roles. He was the VP in charge of Faculty Affairs when I was there and he helped get my mother emeritus status. Don knows where all the bodies are buried. He wrote the following sentence in sharing the news of Ted's death with the other members of the CSUN Retired Faculty organization. I thought you might get a kick out of it.

"Today's New York Times has a major obituary for Edmund (Ted) Carpenter, who has passed away at age 88. He was probably the most famous faculty member ever at San Fernando Valley State College, and anyone who was on the campus 1960 - 64 will certainly remember him.
You can find the obituary at http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/09/us/09carpenter.html?scp=2&sq=ted%20arpenter&st=cse"

Let me know if there is any other information I can provide.
Best to you all,
Naomi"

Bob, I believe you can show that the official records at Northridge, confirm the 1959 date. My father was never a Part Timer, or visiting professor. My father probably conflated the dates he gave Harald with the date he started trying to arrange some sort of position for himself, and the accommodations for the type of department he wanted to establish at Northridge. I included Don Cameron's comment because like Naomi, I thought you might get a kick out of it.

I will leave it to you as to how best to incorporate this new information into your footnotes.

Best, Steve Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 21:02, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Again Bob, I have been trying to correct where Noami's message runs off the page forcing one to scroll, but am having no luck. The page appears differently in "read mode" than in "edit mode". That is why you are seeing multiple sign outs.

Warmest, Steve Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 21:12, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Steve. I fixed it using "blockqoute". --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 04:51, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello again, Bob (Deja vu all over again) Having learned to respect your 'eagle eye' and editorial ability, it occurred to me that you might see what appears to be a discrepancy in the time line. The Northridge records show my father's dates of employment and being on the tenure track as being from 1959 to 1969. How then to explain Fordham (1967-1968 academic year) and then UC Santa Cruz (1968-1969 academic year)? While at Fordham, my father was on a sabbatical from Northridge. While at Santa Cruz, he was on a leave. Northridge was very happy to allow one of their faculty to accept these prestigious honors and positions, because it would in return increase Northridge's prestige, and bragging rights about their faculty. With your familiarity with the academic world, I am sure you realize that my father knew if he returned to Northridge, he would receive no additional recompense and in fact would probably be penalized for missing two years. Which of course played into his decision to punch out his ticket at Northridge and go to New Guinea.

As an aside, I might mention that when my father turned 65 and officially starting to claim his retirement benefits, he was stunned to learn that after all he had done in Toronto in the 11 years there, he was now entitled to a pension of $7.00 Canadian. About $5.00 dollars American. He joked that he wished Marshall was still alive, so that he could give the monthly checks to him, so that Marshall might light his cigars with them. Marshall always bought and smoked expensive cigars, and living in Canada he could get the best. His Northridge pension was similarly stingy.

Again, many thanks and best wishes.

Steve Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 22:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello Steve. Thanks immensely for this important information. And to Lorraine and Naomi. One will digest it well and include it as further proof of 1959. Sabbaticals are not uncommon and understanding Northridge at that time, it would have made sense to allow a leave also. The bit about the retirement money from Toronto is semi-hilarious, were it not so true. I've taken the liberty to reformat Naomi's letter above using "blockquote". Many thanks. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 01:44, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello Bob,

Regarding some of the Northridge issues, as to "Chairman", and being unsure how to attach or upload pdf files to you via this forum. I have used your private email to send such information to you.

Warmest,

Steve

Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Steve. No, as far as I know it's not "possible" (anything's possible though) in my understanding to post a PDF on a discussion page for an editor. I'm sure there are clever ways. I got your email and enjoyed it all, and took in the PDF of "Sundial" (1960). Bests, Ever. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk)

Hi Bob, Seeing the editorial corrections, you have made based on my private email and attachments, I stand in awe of your editorial ability to weave and meld the true facts of my father's life into a coherent and factual narrative. I have put the word out to all concerned, that when they publish any scholarly article with the corrected date of 1959 for Northridge, they immediately let me know, so I can send it to you.

As an aside, I thank you for allowing my edits as to my mother, Florence Ofelia Camara, stand in the record. In one of those strange happenstances, her marriage to my father was the combination of one of the earliest English family's to settle in the New World, with one of the early Spanish Conquistador families to settle in the New World. My mother's great, great, great, "whatever" ancestor came over to the New World to conquer the Maya, with Capt.General, Adelantado Montejo, the conqueror of Yucatan. My mother's father's family house, "La Casa Camara" is well referenced. Indeed Jacquie Kennedy stayed there. And is right down the street from the house of his former Capt. General.

Again, many thanks, and best and warmest,

Steve

Stephen C Carpenter (talk) 01:01, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

My great pleasure, Steve. We're all equal "Wikipedians" on the level save for the admins. Thank you for your kindest words and compliment. I take it to heart. The story of your folks is pretty amazing. Always, bests. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 02:56, 15 July 2011 (UTC)