User talk:Steve/The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (film)
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March size
[edit]Steve, on this:
- On April 11, several thousand people marched in protest against the government.
Estimates of the march range from 500,000 to 1,000,000 ... would be better phrased as "hundreds of thousands" which covers even the most conservative estimates. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Here's what the marches looked like; pro-Chavez editors have been successful at having this image removed from the coup article because it doesn't specifically state that it was April 11-- they allege it could have been another one of the many rallies of similar size (irony at how many massive protests there were, that there can actually be confusion about exactly this one was, while the international media paid no attention to what was happening in Venezuela). That's the busiest highway in Caracas-- six lanes, closed. At any rate, sources will put your number in the hundreds of thousands, although it's frequently referred to as a million, and government-controlled sources try to downplay the number. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia wrote: "[P]ro-Chavez editors have been successful at having this image removed from the coup article because it doesn't specifically state that it was April 11-- they allege it could have been another one of the many rallies of similar size."
- The above photograph was taken in the year 2004 — not 2002. Sandy, please stop labelling other editors whom you disagree with "pro-Chavez". There are plenty of Wikipedians who believe Chavez is ignorant of world affairs, has made some very serious mistakes, but who are equally appalled by the unremitting media smear campaign against him. Otherwise, creating a single purpose account, people may have good reason to call you "Anti-Chavez". Wikispan (talk) 12:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- You are correct that it was 2004. Since it is kind of Steve to work on the film, please do not use his userspace to further personal issues with me. Factual statements like "Sandy is mistaken; this a 2004 photo," are welcome and will decrease unnecessary talk page volume, conform to WP:TALK, encourage a collaborative atmosphere, and help avoid personalizaton of issues (see WP:AGF). Thank you, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- I just received The Silence and the Scorpion by Brian Nelson. It will take me some time to read, but it does use the word "controversial" and contains images similar to the one above, describing the 2002 march as "the largest civic protest in the history of Venezuela", saying "no single photograph was able to capture the opposition march in its entirety". It also has numerous and interesting photos courtesy of El Universal (Caracas), in case we can use any of those under Fair Use in the coup article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Adding notes at User:SandyGeorgia/Silence and the Scorpion, in case anything there helps clarify synopsis, background, cast of characters. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- I just received The Silence and the Scorpion by Brian Nelson. It will take me some time to read, but it does use the word "controversial" and contains images similar to the one above, describing the 2002 march as "the largest civic protest in the history of Venezuela", saying "no single photograph was able to capture the opposition march in its entirety". It also has numerous and interesting photos courtesy of El Universal (Caracas), in case we can use any of those under Fair Use in the coup article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- You are correct that it was 2004. Since it is kind of Steve to work on the film, please do not use his userspace to further personal issues with me. Factual statements like "Sandy is mistaken; this a 2004 photo," are welcome and will decrease unnecessary talk page volume, conform to WP:TALK, encourage a collaborative atmosphere, and help avoid personalizaton of issues (see WP:AGF). Thank you, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Synopsis
[edit]- Steve, Raúl Baduel was instrumental in restoring Chavez to power; is he specifically mentioned in the film? If so, he should be linked and mentioned in the synopsis, as he later became Defense Minister, then even later, turned on Chavez and has been the subject of political persecuttion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sumate organized the marches; are they mentioned? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Does the documentary mention the "split-screen" issue? In Venezuela, Chavez can take over airtime at will, so part of the problem was the private stations used a split screen so they could continue to broadcast events. This is key. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:36, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Does the documentary manage to completely leave out the crucial issue in Chavez's resignation—that he ordered the armed forces to fire on protesters, activating Plan Ávila, and they refused, calling for his resignation? If so, that's just amazingly biased ... I see it's not in your synopsis. Do I really have to watch this film? :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Quick answers for now: Baduel isn't mentioned by name at any point (though I think I saw him in the background). Nor is Sumate. IIRC, the film does mention the split-screen issue, though it's so brief that I didn't think it important to mention. I can put something in if you think it's necessary. No, at no point does the film mention Plan Ávila or Chavez's ordering the troops to fire on anyone. To help so that you don't have to watch the film, perhaps take a look at my original attempt to summarise it, here. It covers pretty much every significant moment in the film. I only cut it down to try to get the size within WP:FILM recommended limits. The reason I haven't incorporated my summary into the main article yet is because I wanted to get some feedback first. It's very difficult to present a straight synopsis for a film like this, where the content has been disputed, as in an ideal world almost every sentence would have to begin with "The film says" or "The film shows". The problem is, without a fully-formed "analysis" or "accuracy" section, the summary lacks context. The "background" section helps, but I think some tweaks will need to be made to the main article first. Otherwise, someone reading it might take it as fact. Oh, and sorry I haven't spent as much time on the main article as I should have; my free time has mostly been taken up by my son this last week. I should get time today to at least comment on talk, and perhaps make a few content edits. All the best, Steve T • C 08:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Reading your synopsis, those were the only questions I had: Rd may have some. I do think the "split screen" issue should be in there. When you're reviewing scholarly sources, could you take note if any of them mention that the documentary leaves out these crucial details (like Plan Avila)? Thanks for everything, Steve, and I'm sorry the little "burp" we had over the last few days. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:36, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Truthfully, none of the sources I've read so far about the film mention Plan Ávila by name, even the critical pieces. I do have a favour to ask though, if that's OK. Before implementing the synopsis I want to make sure I haven't made a mistake in my description of the opening scenes, which I called "footage of Chávez celebrating his 1998 election victory"; it seemed too big a parade to be anything else. However, I'm not sure this isn't just Chávez out on a meet-and-greet. Can you tell whether this is from 1998 or much later? Steve T • C 21:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'll watch it now, although Rd or someone else may get back to you sooner. We're talking abou this text, I presume?
- The film opens with archive footage of Chávez' celebrating his 1998 election victory. He makes an address in which he decries neoliberalism and the international community, whom he believes has demonised him.
- SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- I can't say with certainty; what is confusing is the "bienvenido" (welcome) banners shown in the first scenes, which could indicate a tour to some other state or neighborhood, and I don't know which speech that was. User:JRSP would probably know; I'll ping him. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:24, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'll watch it now, although Rd or someone else may get back to you sooner. We're talking abou this text, I presume?
- Truthfully, none of the sources I've read so far about the film mention Plan Ávila by name, even the critical pieces. I do have a favour to ask though, if that's OK. Before implementing the synopsis I want to make sure I haven't made a mistake in my description of the opening scenes, which I called "footage of Chávez celebrating his 1998 election victory"; it seemed too big a parade to be anything else. However, I'm not sure this isn't just Chávez out on a meet-and-greet. Can you tell whether this is from 1998 or much later? Steve T • C 21:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Reading your synopsis, those were the only questions I had: Rd may have some. I do think the "split screen" issue should be in there. When you're reviewing scholarly sources, could you take note if any of them mention that the documentary leaves out these crucial details (like Plan Avila)? Thanks for everything, Steve, and I'm sorry the little "burp" we had over the last few days. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:36, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Quick answers for now: Baduel isn't mentioned by name at any point (though I think I saw him in the background). Nor is Sumate. IIRC, the film does mention the split-screen issue, though it's so brief that I didn't think it important to mention. I can put something in if you think it's necessary. No, at no point does the film mention Plan Ávila or Chavez's ordering the troops to fire on anyone. To help so that you don't have to watch the film, perhaps take a look at my original attempt to summarise it, here. It covers pretty much every significant moment in the film. I only cut it down to try to get the size within WP:FILM recommended limits. The reason I haven't incorporated my summary into the main article yet is because I wanted to get some feedback first. It's very difficult to present a straight synopsis for a film like this, where the content has been disputed, as in an ideal world almost every sentence would have to begin with "The film says" or "The film shows". The problem is, without a fully-formed "analysis" or "accuracy" section, the summary lacks context. The "background" section helps, but I think some tweaks will need to be made to the main article first. Otherwise, someone reading it might take it as fact. Oh, and sorry I haven't spent as much time on the main article as I should have; my free time has mostly been taken up by my son this last week. I should get time today to at least comment on talk, and perhaps make a few content edits. All the best, Steve T • C 08:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- It is a commemoration of the anniversary of the 4 February 1992 coup attempt, see the big 4F behind the podium. There is also a banner that says "Círculos Bolivarianos", which were created on 11 June 2001 so my inference is that the parade was on 4 February 2002, the 10th anniversary of the coup attempt, a couple of months before the April 2002 coup. JRSP (talk) 00:10, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- That's much appreciated; thank you! Steve T • C 00:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks, JRSP! Steve, the link would be Bolivarian Circles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:25, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Steve, JRSP will know best, but this might be better as "crowd of supporters and members of newly-formed Bolivarian Circles ... or something like that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Journal article
[edit]Do you have this? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Schiller, Naomi (October 2009). "Framing the Revolution: Circulation and Meaning of The Revolution Will Not Be Televised". Mass Communication and Society. 12 (4): 478–502. doi:10.1080/15205430903237832.
- I can email this on request if anyone wants - email me so I can reply with attachment. It has some useful details about the film (eg $200,000 cinema release gross), as well as lengthy discussion about its impact. Rd232 talk 08:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- That's most kind, Rd; I'll leave that to Steve, since he's better able to digest and summarize things neutrally than I am, and he knows what's needed on film articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Steve, in case your sources say anything. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:03, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
El Universal
[edit]Steve, re this, please feel free to delete any/all of my El Universal sources as you see fit. I've added them only because WP:MOSFILM encourages text from the country of origin, and so you can see what they say, since you may not speak Spanish. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't speak it, not really, but as part of my job I've translated books from French, Italian, Chinese and Spanish, so I'm confident I can get to the esencia of what most of the Spanish-language sources say. I think it's a good idea to retain El Univeral, because it contains a couple of details that Schiller only covers the generalities of, but I need to work out exactly how to intertwine them to make it flow well, which is why I'm building it here first. :-) All the best, Steve T • C 23:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)