User talk:Stumink

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About Death Toll[edit]

There is a discussion on talkpage of Menelik's biography here regarding the death toll. Previously you supported and find it important for it's inclusion and now you are invited to list your reasons for the inclusion and to provide your opposition on the listed reasons for not including the death toll estimate. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:03, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Stumink, So far you have not participated in the discussion that has been going on the article's page. Before I make a revert to your last revert I want to give you the reasons for it so that we discuss it in advance.
  • 1) Clarification needed: We are talking about death toll, so clarification is needed on how the claimed millions are killed. We need to know exactly how millions can die in conquest? We need to explain by evidences like on this date and on this place 300,000 died, and on another day and in another particular place 500,000 died by military personels, by these mechanism for this and that reasons etc etc, just like how death tolls are estimated in other parts of the world. Somehow we need to add up and reach over 2 million deaths. This is the topic of discussion. Unless we reach by these way to over 2 millions and convince wikipedia administrators then that number needs not to be there based on the rules of WP:EXCEPTIONAL which says Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. Over 2 million deaths is indeed exceptional claim and requires exceptional source which clearly says "on ........ and ..........day .......... number of people died on a place called ..... with order given by generals named ........... and these number of people were killed by ............. mechanism for a reason of ............"
  • 2) Using Alemayehu as a source for death toll estimate does not fulfil the requirement stated under:
  • WP:QS which says "Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest.”
  • WP:EXCEPTIONAL which says "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources: Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources.”
  • 3) Alemayehu should not be used for the estimate based on the following reasons:
  • a) For not providing data in the above way: Alemayehu came up with his total deaths by not using the above way of data collection and calculation. Against WP:EXCEPTIONAL
  • b) For using only one ambiguous statement for his estimate: For his estimate he simply used an ambigues statement made by Bulatovich which says “dreadful annihilation of half the population during the conquest”. Bulatovich’s usage of during is ambiguous and can be regarded as during the time of the conquest a dreadful annihilation occurred, most probably by famine which most scholars believed the worst in the regions history. Against WP:QS
  • c) For not mentioning the famine that killed 1/3 of the regions inhabitants, and 90% of the cattle by disease that was believed to be introduced by Italians.[1][2] This famine is mentioned in Bulatovich’s account while Alemayehu did not mention it. Againest WP:QS
  • d) Population estimate before conquest? For not providing additional 1 more primary source for his estimate of the people before the conquest. Against WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:QS
  • e) Other primary source with half died not supplied: For not providing atleast 1 more primary source supporting his claim of half of that particular ethnic-group died. WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:QS
  • f) How? For not showing how his claimed 5 million people were killed. Not mentioning at least one mechanism to kill all these people. In Libya we have seen unarmed people revolting and deposing a very well organised centralised government system armed with 21st century modern weapon. He should have explained how these much people were killed because nobody just gets killed without making an effort to defend himself. Against WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:QS
  • g) No material evidence provided like pictures and photos of mass graves supporting the claim of millions killed.Against WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:QS
  • h) No written documents provided like copy of letter or verbal accounts used to order execution of people in 100s of thousands something supporting the claim of millions killed.Against WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:QS
  • i) Individual work: estimating death tolls require experts specialised in different fields.
  • j) Work not widely available? His work is not found in Google books and Amazon as can be seen here [3][4][5]. Considering how serious the topic is it should have been supported by a well notable scholar where his book is available for sell in Amazon and Google Books where it has been widely scrutinised by the media. Against WP:EXCEPTIONAL
  • k) No disciplined research: Usually researches with estimating population and deaths are required to show dedicated chapters which explain and show their methodology, data and sampling presentation, analysis, conclusion and recommendations.
  • 4) Conclusion:Therefore, for these reasons it should not be used as a reference to support an exceptional claim of over 2 million deaths. A wikipedia editor who estimates by himself based on a primary source is 'Original research' and is also against the rule.
Stumnik, If you want to respond for each of the points above you may refer the numbers. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:47, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

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  • Stumink: I still find it unfair to include an estimate made by one person's comment who did not forward his opinion on how and why 5 million people were killed by at least dedicating one paragraph i.e. assuming his usage of the ambiguous word 'during' was 'due to' and again assuming famine and fever factor is not included, since none of the secondary sources used for reference in Wikipedia did not even mention those factors not even once, let alone dedicate a paragraph and explain it further. An estimate made by just one person's comment without providing multiple material and written documents (supporting millions murdered/killed) is an estimating methodology not used in any other parts of the civilised world with similar exceptional claim of millions (2+ million) deaths. Anyhow, if it is considered fair then I have made a proposal on Otakrem's user page here [6]. Since you added the statement, let me know your opinion before I add a paragraph telling how the region looks like before 20th century. I believe people dead before this period is also equally important information i.e. if the importance of the information is for concern to human right. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:30, 21 July 2016 (UTC)