User talk:Thanatos666/Archive 4

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Note to self (on recent citation template(s) code changes)

Recent (yesterday's?) citation template(s) changes have again created mayhem.
E.g. ...cite book|title=[[X|x]]|chapter=Y|url=Z... now causes a Wikilink embedded in URL title (help) error. The above syntax no longer wikilinks x to X and Y to Z externally; it instead links externally [[X|x]] (verbatim) to Z and displays said error.
Who is going to fix all relevant refs?!?!?!?! Thanatos|talk|contributions 08:40, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

In hoc signo vinces

I just wanted to let you know that I removed the use by nobility section as only one part of it was sourced, I moved that part down to the list which is an un-ideal but policy following way to solve the immediate issue. I also tagged several sections of the history section since they have yet to be sourced. As you didn't reply to my comment in reply to yours on the talk page I'll note here that per policy, it is not better to have unsourced information than to have less information so eventually those sections will be deleted if they aren't sourced, regardless of whether you consider the story famous or not. Of course we all want more sourced information in each article, but not if it means adding information source and re-adding it until sourcing can be found. Cat-fivetc ---- 16:52, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for not replying; I hadn't ignored your comment, I had just not seen it. I've now replied. Thanatos|talk|contributions 06:13, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I figured as such, not a problem, and I figured it wasn't urgent until I decided to act again so I didn't bother bugging you about it on your talk page. I have since replied to your reply. Cat-fivetc ---- 19:30, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

December 2014

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Utility/Legitimacy of “People of Levantine-Greek Orthodox Christian Descent” Category

Dear Thanatos666,

You seem to have a good grasp of Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman history and cultural anthropology, notably re: the role of Byzantine communities in Turkey and the MENA area and the subtle ethno-cultural nuances of Greek and Greco-Levantine Christian minorities and their relatives in the (mostly US and Latin American) diasporas.

Some Wikipedians have reopened an old CfD debate, purportedly aiming at removing the “People of Levantine-Greek Orthodox Christian descent” category– see discussion below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_December_16#Category:People_of_Levantine-Greek_Orthodox_Christian_descent

Can you please help us with your learned arguments & let us know if you’re in favor of keeping it?

I, personally, think it shouldn’t be removed. My perspective is Positivist & thus mostly ethno-cultural/academic, not “theological”.

Thanks in advance for your scholarly help,

BA B.Andersohn (talk) 15:57, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

FYI: Done. Though I'm not sure about whom I'm replying to... :) Thanatos|talk|contributions 19:50, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Greek book title

Hey, the Greek book title Βάσανος τῶν περὶ τῆς ἑλληνικῆς προφορᾶς Ἐρασμικῶν ἀποδείξεων is used in Ancient Greek phonology. I was putting it in the {{Cite book}} template, and I attempted to translate it, but I would appreciate it if you would check my translation, since I'm not quite sure I got it right! My translation doesn't sound like very idiomatic English. — Eru·tuon 08:21, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Let's say that tracing the exact, the precise meaning of Greek words through time is simply a herculean labour... ;-)
Prima facie I would say 'basanos' could be qualified as an extensive, thorough, exhaustive test, i.e something more than simply a test (Babiniotes concurs), and 'apodeixeis' means 'proofs', i.e something much stronger than simply 'demonstrations'.
But in any case, your translation seems OK, fine. Imo go with it!
PS Btw, fyi, here is Ανέμη, wherein the cited book (I've tried to link to the English language form of both pages, but somehow, for some reason, the links get screwed up here; if it's in Greek, simply click on 'English' at the top right corner of the page).

Thanatos|talk|contributions 11:02, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Interesting. It sounds like βάσανος means touchstone (assaying tool) in Ancient Greek, thus a way of testing the genuineness of a metal, and it also means interrogation by torture. I'm guessing there's no directly corresponding word in English; I think touchstone is used by some people, but it doesn't mean anything to me. I guess I'm trying to determine the emotional nuance in the Greek title — sarcastic, pejorative, high-minded, or simply academic. Like, maybe it means "the Erasmian so-called proofs of Greek pronunciation on trial (in a criminal investigation)". Sarcasm meaning the author saying it's proofs, but implying it's not actually proven. And trial because he's opposed to the Erasmian system and thinks Erasmus created his system with bad motivation, the motivation of representing the Modern Greek people as inferior by saying their pronunciation is different from the Glorious Classical Form of Greek. Maybe this isn't relevant to just translating, but it's getting me curious about the nuances of the wording. My suggested nuances might be completely wrong.

Is the link to a version released from copyright? It should be linked in the bibliography section then (despite that few people understand Modern Greek), using the URL parameter in the cite book template. — Eru·tuon 13:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

• 1. Already linked to LSJ. Anyway I'd say that nowadays in colloquial Greek βάσανος in the sense of a test, be it easy or hard, is hardly if ever used. What is common is the 'neuterised' form βάσανο and more so its plural βάσανα, in the sense of "torments", "great troubles". Βάσανος in the sense of a touchstone-test? No, not any more, forget it. But the form and register of the language of the book you've cited is a 125 years in the past kathareuousa, so I'd say that the sense of the word he's using can not be deduced simply from the present sense nor by just looking the word up, though both could be helpful. He seems polemical and austere, decisively critical; given its context, I would freely say that he meant "a serious/hard/exhaustive test/rebuttal of the so called proofs of Erasmus about the Greek pronunciation", but that's a free conjectural translation, hardly appropriate in translating a title of a book; taking out "so called" and "rebuttal" and going by "test" or "exhaustive test", would do the job. As would your initial translation; cause as I've told you it seems fine. Don't trouble yourself with such trivial minutiae...
• 2. From the homepage of Aneme (in English):
  "Composed of a rich online bibliographic database, Anemi links -where intellectual rights are not affected- the bibliographic record with the digitized book itself. The user can thus read, print and store in his computer all or part of each digitized rare item found in Anemi's database.
  Apart from its open-access digitized collections, Anemi also offers a small number of digitized books available only within the Closed Network of the University of Crete Library. These are books usually with unclear copyright status, or copyrighted material that is out of print or not available for sale".
  Moreover, Theo seems to have died in 1914 and by Greek law (Ν2121/1993 and amendments) the copyright lasts for 70 years after one's death. Go ahead, link to it. Even if by way of some potential arcane Greek law absurdity, we're not allowed to cite it thus (wtf?!?!?), we could then simply remove it at will. Ne Dia, it's a link and it's free, they say so themselves... ;-) Thanatos|talk|contributions 19:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I finally figured out I was looking up επίδειξη, which means demonstration (I'm not sure how I got confused...), and απόδειξη could be translated as proofs, but in this case I think evidence makes more sense. That makes the title much more understandable to me. Also, I decided vasanos should be translated appraisal, assessment, critique, or examination. Probably critique, because it has a negative meaning (i.e., a detailed examination with the connotation of being critical or finding bad in something). Thanks for your help! And I added the link. — Eru·tuon 20:36, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

PIE notation

Hey, noticed you were replacing *y with j in Ancient Greek phonology. Alakzi reverted you, because *y is the PIE notation for /j/. I'll just direct you to Proto-Indo-European language § Phonology to see the details of PIE notation, assuming you have not already gone there. — Eru·tuon 18:00, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I've written to you elsewhere about this... It could perhaps help if you checked... ;-) Btw this Proto-Indo-European_phonology#Consonants includes 'j'. Imo it's also more consistent (as we use IPA /j/ elsewhere); also,...de Germans, from what I've seen, seem to agree with me... But anyway, your wikihouse/language, your rules... :) Thanatos|talk|contributions 18:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

It'd be improper to alter Indo-Europeanist notation, which is what's been used predominantly in all the modern literature. Alakzi (talk) 21:55, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, the consonants section is showing that the PIE notation *y corresponds to the IPA j. (Sorry, didn't see your other message till now!) Germans use j in their alphabet, but it appears they use *y in their PIE notation: see de:Indogermanische Ursprache § Konsonanten. I agree this is confusing, and maybe I'll see if it can be worded a little better. — Eru·tuon 23:20, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Googgle for example Djeus or Djeus ph2tēr and you'll see that even in English this is not exactly true... ;-) Thanatos|talk|contributions 16:33, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I see you're right; a lot of inconsistency. Dnghu.org uses j, for instance in [1] — though that is not really a Wikipedia-appropriate source. If more reliable sources use it, it should probably be mentioned in Proto-Indo-European language or somewhere, although y still would have to be the official form used on Wikipedia. — Eru·tuon 20:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)