Wikipedia:Peer review/Robin Hood/archive1

New Peer Review

The article was previously reviewed, and has cleaned up considerably since then. Perhaps some insights on what remains to be done before nomination? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 02:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Robin Hood

Relatively stable at the moment -- what can be done to make it better? Goldfritha 23:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My limited understanding of the subject is that the nature and origins of Robin Hood are disputed. The article sometimes appears to take a particular and sometimes a rather strong stance. For example, the article assures the reader that various attempts to tie Robin Hood to a real individual, for example, to the Earl of Huntingdon, are undoubtedly false. There may be some WP:NPOV issues regarding the way the article goes about this. It might be better simply to indicate who says the ties are false or, if it can be sourced, indicate that this is the majority view, without committing Wikipedia to the issue. Would also recommend that the popular culture section focus on and list contempory movies, television shows, popular songs and music videos, and similar. Most of the current content of the "popular culture" section -- books written in the Victorian era and the like -- might better be put in a "literature" section or similar, brow height notwithstanding. Finally, suggest more pictures. --Shirahadasha 04:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Err -- do you have a source for saying that the nature and origins are (seriously) disputed? The article as written reflects a consensus among the sources that were consulted.

The popular culture section was split off to a separate article for space considerations.

I'll look at images. Goldfritha 00:03, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Awadewit

A pleasure to read. Here are my suggestions. They may look long and scary, but they are mostly small writing suggestions, except for a few about the later sections.

"the archetypal English folk hero" - "the" or "an"?
He operates with his "seven score" (140 strong) group of fellow outlawed yeomen – called his "Merry Men." - "operates" seems oddly modern here; also why do you need "140 strong" rather than just "140"?; the entire sentence seems a little awkward, with "Merry Men" tacked on
Robin Hood and his band are usually associated with Sherwood Forest and Nottinghamshire. - "with the areas of"?
He has been the subject of numerous movies, books, comics and plays. - "He" or "they"?
levying intolerable taxation - I think just "taxes" works better.
the despotic sheriff gravely abuses his position, appropriating land, levying intolerable taxation, and unfairly persecuting the poor - how he abuses his position needs to be marked out by punctation or conjunctions; also is persecuting the poor ever fair ("unfairly" seems redundant)?
In some tales the antagonist is Prince John, based on John of England, seen as the unjust usurper of his pious brother Richard. - awkward - missing some connections; perhaps something like: "In some tales the antagonist is Prince John, named after John of England, who was seen as the unjust..."
In the oldest versions surviving, Robin Hood is a yeoman, but in some versions he is said to have been a nobleman, the earl of Loxley (Locksley), who was unjustly deprived of his lands. - hard to follow all of the clauses
Sometimes he has served in the crusades, returning to England to find his lands pillaged by the dastardly sheriff. - "is said to have"?
The figure is less a personage and more of an amalgam of the various ideas his "life" has been structured to support. - vague
Even at this early stage, the name Robin Hood denotes an archetypal criminal. - This is unclear. I think of Robin Hood as a fictional figure, a figure of fairy tale or fable, so you need to explain this idea more clearly.
the name is again used to describe an itinerant felon - This sounds very specific; perhaps you could explain more fully - "felon" usually has very specific legal meanings. The quote you provide uses a Robin Hodd simile.
I found the "Early references" section a little confusing. The main idea that you want to get across doesn't emerge until the last paragraph. You have a lot of great evidence, but the reader doesn't know what you are trying to prove with it until the very end. Try putting a revised version of that last paragraph at the beginning of the section, perhaps?
On the other hand, even though clearly fictitious, Robin does not appear to have stemmed from mythology or folklore. While there are occasional efforts to trace him to fairies (such as Puck under the alias "Robin Goodfellow") or other mythological origins, good evidence for this has not been found, and when Robin Hood has been connected to such folklore, it is a later development. - This is oddly worded. I know what you are trying to say, but it sounds like you are saying Robin is not literally descended from fairies.
Some early Robin Hood stories appear to be unique, such as the story where Robin gives a knight, generally called Richard at the Lee, money to pay off his mortgage to an abbot - prepositional phrases at the end are confusing - did he borrow money from the abbot? I'm not clear on that.
This is preserved in Cambridge University manuscript Ff.5.48, which was written shortly after 1450. - What genre is it? Ballad? Song? Tale?
These are particularly noteworthy as they show Robin's integration into May Day rituals towards the end of the Middle Ages. - Why is this noteworthy? What don't I know about May Day and the Middle Ages that I should?
It is interesting to compare the character of Robin in these first texts to his later incarnations. - Yes, it is interesting to do that, but perhaps the topic sentence of your paragraph could give us a little more information on that comparison! :)
the Merry Men are almost a proto-democracy - "almost" and "proto" seems redundant
in the Gest the king even observes that - could you spell out the title again since it will be unfamiliar to most readers?
And rather than being deprived of his lands by the villainous Sheriff of Nottingham, when an origin for Robin appears, he takes to 'the greenwood' after killing royal foresters for mocking him - I'm not clear on how you are using "origin" here.
While he is sometimes described as a figure of peasant revolt, the details of his legends do not match this. - This is an odd statement - do you mean "medieval legends" or something like that? The sentence as it stands sounds vaguely contradictory - how can Robin Hood not be something that he is described as being?
He appears not so much as a revolt against societal standards as an embodiment of them, being generous, pious, and courteous, opposed to stingy, worldly, and churlish foes. - How can Robin "appear as a revolt"? That sounds rather awkward; perhaps his tales could?
His tales glorified violence, but did so in a violent era. - This kind of broad statement makes me nervous. I see that you have a citation for it; is there anything more nuanced in the source?
The fourth paragraph of "Ballads and tales" is a little disjointed.
Later that century Robin is promoted to the level of nobleman: he is styled Earl of Huntington, Robert of Locksley, or Robert Fitz Ooth. - This is oddly worded - it sounds like it actually happens. In what works, for example, did this happen?
In the fifteenth century, Robin Hood became associated with May Day celebrations; people would dress as Robin or as other members of his band for the festivities, a practice that was not engaged in all England, but which lasted until Elizabethean times, and during the reign of Henry VIII, was briefly popular at court. - Long and awkward sentence, particularly "engaged in"
Ah! Was the Robin Hood/May Day association part of the carnivalesque tradition? Do you know Bakhtin's work on the carnivalesque? You might want to include something briefly on that here. It certainly sounds relevant and I can't believe nothing would have been written on it.
refers to "some merry fytte of Maid Marian or else of Robin Hood" — but the characters were brought together - Is this your emphasis or the author's? Please indicate.
This date is first proposed by John Mair in his Historia Majoris Britanniæ (1512), and gains popular acceptance by the end of the century. - past tense seems more appropriate
Giving Robin an aristocratic title and female love interest, and placing him in the historical context of the true king's absence, all represent moves to domesticate his legend and reconcile it to ruling powers. - I don't really follow this. Why does giving him a title and placing him in the context of the king's absence "domesticate" his legend? Do you mean locate it specifically in England? If so, that wasn't clear. I think there are too many ideas in this sentence. Also, a citation is probably in order.
From the 16th century on, the legend of Robin Hood is often used to promote the hereditary ruling class, heterosexual romance, and religious piety. The "criminal" element is retained to provide dramatic colour, rather than as a real challenge to convention. - "was" or "is"?
The seventeenth century introduced the minstrel Alan-a-Dale. He first appeared in a seventeenth century broadside ballad, and unlike many of the characters thus associated, managed to adhere to the legend. - unclear what "managed to adhere to the legend" means
When his enemies do not fall for this ruse, he persuades them to drink with him instead. - it is totally unclear why "When" is linked - this should be made more explicit
The continued popularity of the Robin Hood tales is attested by a number of literary references. In As You Like It, the exiled duke and his men "live like the old Robin Hood of England", while Ben Jonson produced the (incomplete) masque The Sad Shepheard, or a Tale of Robin Hood[46] as a satire on Puritanism. Somewhat later, the Romantic poet John Keats composed Robin Hood. To A Friend[47] and Alfred Lord Tennyson wrote a play The Foresters, or Robin Hood and Maid Marian,[48] which was presented with incidental music by Sir Arthur Sullivan in 1892. Later still, T. H. White featured Robin and his band in The Sword in the Stone — anachronistically, since the novel's chief theme is the childhood of King Arthur.[49] - This paragraph does not fit where it is placed and is listy.
These versions firmly stamp Robin as a staunch philanthropist - overstated a bit, perhaps?
The idea of Robin Hood as a high-minded Saxon fighting Norman Lords also originates in the 19th century. - but I thought you said it was a "local" century?
The Robin Hood legend has thus been subject to numerous shifts and mutations throughout its history. Robin himself has evolved from an obscure footpad to a national hero of epic proportions, who not only supports the poor by taking from the rich, but heroically defends the throne of England itself from unworthy and venal claimants. - unnecessary and doesn't do justice to the history anyway
The "Ballads and tales" section could probably be split up into subsections, perhaps by date?
The "Connections to existing locations" section seemed like information for another page to me, perhaps the Sherwood Forest page? If you decide to keep it, many of the paragraphs could be joined together and condensed. They also need to be cited.
Shouldn't the ballads in your list be italicized?
Songs, plays, games, and, later, novels, musicals, films, and TV series have developed Robin Hood and company according to the needs of their times, and the mythos has been subject to extensive ideological manipulation. - awkward; also "ideological manipulation" sounds slightly insidious although I know it doesn't have to be
Maid Marian, for instance, something of a warrior maiden in early Victorian novels, was reduced in demeanour to passivity during the period of the women's suffrage movement. As the media power of the modern feminist movement gathered momentum, Marian reacquired an altogether more active role. - This is odd - can you explain.
The section "Robin Hood in popular culture" does not really seem to discuss the promised topic of the heading. Also, it needs sources.
Starting in 2007, the University of Nottingham will be offering a Masters degree on the subject of Robin Hood. - This is random.
Your footnotes should all be cited the same way (some have author's last name first, some have first name first, for example - pick a style (MLA, Chicago) and stick with it). Also, you need to check on how to cite web sources.
Is all of this happening in England? You often say "In the 16th century..." I just want to make sure that all of these texts are being written in England.
Could you add dates in paranthesis for all of the ballads and tales so that the reader knows for sure what time period you are talking about? Even c.1500 would be good.
Why are all of the pictures so small and on the left side of the page?
Is it best to refer to Robin Hood as Robin or Hood? I have no idea. At several points, you do refer to him as "Hood." :) Awadewit 00:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Going through the list. Some nits: Prince John is not named after the actual Prince John; he is based on him, just like folktales of Davy Crockett do not have a hero named after the actual Crockett. Goldfritha 00:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the background; my main complaint with that sentence is that it has too many clauses and the connections between the clauses are vague. Obviously my revision changed the meaning - that's why I didn't copyedit - I was just trying to find a clearer construction. Awadewit 00:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]