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Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Charles Holden/archive2

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Lead comments from Cryptic C62

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  • "Holden's early buildings were influenced by the Arts and Crafts Movement, but for most of his career he championed an unadorned style based on simplified forms and massing that was free of what he considered to be unnecessary decorative detailing." What does "massing" mean here?
  • "After the First World War he increasingly simplified his style and his later designs are pared-down Art Deco and modernist, influenced by European architecture." This sentence seems to be divided into two chunks: that of "After the First World War" and "his later designs". Are these different time periods or one in the same? If different, they should be separated with punctuation. If the same, extra words should be trimmed: "After the First World War he increasingly simplified his style of design to pared-down Art Deco and modernism as influenced by European architecture."
  • "Holden was a member of the Design and Industries Association and the Art Workers' Guild and believed strongly in "fitness for purpose"." Where does the phrase "fitness for purpose" come from? What is it referring to? More context needed.
    • It was a common motto used by the DIA. I don't think that it needs further explanation here (see the Holden on Architecture section); the context is in terms of the fitness of a design for the purpose of its product.--DavidCane (talk) 22:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • It should either make sense or be removed. Currently it does not make sense unless the reader happens to be a member of the DIA. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:24, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • "Fitness for purpose" and the variant "fit for purpose" are quite common terms. In what way do you feel this does not make sense?--DavidCane (talk) 00:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • The meaning of the phrase itself is obvious; the thing that does not make sense is why it has been included in this sentence. It is not immediately clear from the way that the sentence is written whether "fitness for purpose" refers to architecture, these particular organizations, or architects in general. In the case that it refers to an architectural philosophy, why has it been randomly jammed into this sentence about organizations? You've told me here that this is because it was a common motto of the DIA; my point is that the relationship between the phrase and the DIA has not been made clear. Thus, it does not make sense. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:44, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although not without its critics, his architecture is widely appreciated." Appreciated by whom?
  • "His station designs for London Underground became the house style influencing designs by all architects working for the organisation in the 1930s." The phrase "house style" is ambiguous, particularly in an architecture article. I suggest linking or rewording.
  • "Modestly believing that architecture was a joint effort" A joint effort between whom?
  • There is no material in the lead that summarizes Early life or Family life. Topics that are important enough have primary sections are also important enough to be summarized in the lead.
    • I don't believe that it is necessary to cover every section of the article in the lead. WP:LEAD says that the purpose is to establish context and summarise the most important points including the reasons for notability. The early life and family life sections are relevant to Holden's life story, but not important in setting out why he was a notable architect. --DavidCane (talk) 22:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • WP:LEAD also says: "in a well-constructed article, the emphasis given to material in the lead will be reflected in the rest of the text." By my calculation, Early life and Family life together comprise just over 10% of the body prose. In theory, 10% of the lead should be devoted to those sections, though in practice I think a single sentence with a key point from both sections would be fine. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:24, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "his later designs are pared-down Art Deco and modernist" As far as I can tell, this is the only instance of "Art Deco" in the entire article. The lead should not introduce any information that isn't present in the body.

I also have one non-lead comment: Is it necessary to include the entire text of "If Whitman had been an Architect"? The answer is "no." It should be excerpted briefly, summarized, or removed altogether as you see fit.--Cryptic C62 · Talk 21:29, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I asked myself this question. Because of the poetic formatting of the quote, it appears quite long on the page although it is shorter than some other quotes I have seen in terms of word count (e.g. a couple of the quotes here). I believe that at least some of the quote needs to be included as it shows very clearly Holden's passion and the strength of his belief in the new form of architecture he was espousing (even if it sounds slightly mad to modern ears). If it does have to be trimmed I think the first two paragraphs are the core of what needs to stay.--DavidCane (talk) 22:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    If the first two paragraphs are the core, then let's just keep that and nix the rest. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:24, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dank

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[Prose discussion moved from FAC page] Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk) 20:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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