Wikipedia talk:Persondata

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Short Description parameter[edit]

Just in case anyone missed it, the short description parameter is now 100% added to all Persondata templates. See Category_talk:Persondata_templates_without_short_description_parameter Periglio (talk) 00:48, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Markup to move this thing to the right of the page?[edit]

I've tried all the usual markup to move paragraphs and tables around on a page. But the Persondata template I'm trying to move remains doggedly stuck in the middle where it is in the way and clutters the page. What is the markup to move it to the right so that it will sit in the best place? Trilobitealive (talk) 18:53, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

@Trilobitealive: The Persondata template isn't supposed to be visible on the page. Could you please give an example of what you're trying to do? GoingBatty (talk) 20:59, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
If you do make it visible, it's also not in the middle, but hard left. It's not difficult to float it right though, by modifying the code given at WP:PDT#Viewing persondata - instead of
table.persondata {display:table !important;}
table.persondata {display:table !important; float: right; }
I can't find any indication that Trilobitealive has enabled the persondata though. --Redrose64 (talk) 00:33, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
I just want to make the thing that is showing go to the right side of the page. It looks like a table but it won't respond to the usual markup to move a table to the right side next to the writing. The page is Kenneth MacAlpin. There should be some way to move it to the right side. Trilobitealive (talk) 03:50, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
@Trilobitealive: The only recent edit of yours to that page is this one (for which there is a better way), but that concerns the references, not persondata; so I'm still unsure what you are trying to do here. I need to be certain of one thing though: when you say "the Persondata template I'm trying to move", do you mean the box that starts off like this
Kenneth MacAlpin
Born: after 800 Died: 13 February 858
or the box that starts off like this
Name Macalpin, Kenneth
Alternative names
Which of these two is it that you wish to move? --Redrose64 (talk) 11:05, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The first box is like the one on the page. The second is just a table. I hate to be a nuisance but this is one of the generic problems that I see from time to time in other places with other forms, templates et cetera. Trilobitealive (talk) 18:19, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

@Trilobitealive: The first box is not persondata (but the second box is); it's a succession box (more at Template:S-start). These are always centred. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:31, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Heavy sigh. Another subset of the same problem, how to make the page look like it should. I'd mistaken one for the other. This is why the code for these templates needs to be hidden from Sunday editors. Thanks. Trilobitealive (talk) 23:04, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Deprecation update[edit]

As the Persondata debate has been quiet for a while, I thought I would update people with my behind the scenes work. As I have mentioned before, I have my personal extract of all articles with Persondata, which I am converting to use Wikidata instead. I am in the process of finding the wikidata code for my records and about 20% of the way through.

I currently estimate I will end up with about 2,000 out of 1,190,744 Wikipedia articles with a Persondata article not linked to a Wikidata item. However, a lot of these appear to be new articles and they do seem to be created eventually. Certainly too few to worry about.

My next step is to check the birth and death dates. Do they exist on Wikidata? Is there a need to use dates from Persondata. A few weeks and I will have the answers.

My conclusions so far are

  • No need for any action creating wikidata items from Persondata
  • Name: No need to copy this to Wikidata - the EN label is rarely missing if there is an enwiki link. There is a suggestion of a defaultsort equivalent, but Persondata is too random to be useful especially as wikipedia DEFAULTSORT is just as easy to extract.
  • Alternative names - I have ignored this field - it is just too random to be useful.
  • Short description - This one should be copied to Wikidata. Lots of entries are missing a description and it makes it really painful when searching for a person.
  • Birth & death dates - My first impression is that wikidata is pretty much complete with dates. I may change my mind when I have run some analysis but my current feeling is that there is no need for Persondata dates to be copied over.
  • Places of birth & death - I have ignored these fields up until now. They will be in my analysis but I would not like to say how useful these will be for updating Wikidata.

In summary, assuming my work over the next couple of months does not throw up any major issues, the only remaining useful metadata on Persondata is the short description. If that is copied across to Wikidata, then I can withdraw my personal objections to Persondata deprecation and obsolescence - ie Wikidata is a better alternative. Periglio (talk) 01:48, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

In addition to this, I propose that we create Wikidata tracking categories, so that it is easier for bots to export Birth and death dates and maybe short description. It could be enforced in a similar way to Template:Commonscat. George Edward CTalkContributions 19:33, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
@Periglio: Thanks for your work on this. Are all of the short descriptions copied over now? Should we begin deprecation or is there any other data that you want to work on further? Kaldari (talk) 18:18, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Periglio reported that done three months ago (above) but the tracking cat Persondata templates without short description parameter now contains 1961 pages. It isn't something that stays done. --P64 (talk) 19:15, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Kaldari was referring to updating Wikidata with the Persondata field. My personal view is that Persondata is no longer useful for Wikidata - I now have to convince Wikidata of that. The other question is whether Persondata is ready to be deprecated. It is still a maintained data source, are we sure no one is using it? Rather than having a whole new deprecate debate, I am thinking a simple RfC - does anyone use Persondata? Periglio (talk) 19:35, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
@Periglio: Personally, I think the template is ready for deprecation. It is effectively obsolete at this point do to the availability of similar data from Wikidata, and it seems we have exported what we can to that project. Kaldari (talk) 17:46, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Do we have a tracking category for English-language short description empty at Wikidata?
Why should it be our responsibility to export? Is there a technical reason why Wikidata cannot automatically monitor new pages, or Persondata short descriptions, and import from EN.wikipedia?
Wikidata does not yet automatically pay much attention, per my last month's report immediately below. --P64 (talk) 18:25, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
@P64: There's no category that I know of (and I wouldn't know how to make one) but it's a good idea.
WikiData only copies from us in the first place because we asked them to. PLbot recently (mostly) finished copying the Persondata short descriptions (and I don't know about new Persondata added since then). And since Persondata is on the verge of being officially considered deprecated if not ready for deletion, there's no real point in setting up a copying routine for Persondata.—Msmarmalade (talk) 09:44, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

WD pages for people continue to be revised automatically by reference to our Persondata parameter SHORT DESCRIPTION. Here is one example from Wednesday [1]. I created our biography of Dorothy Rice Sims 2015-02-02 with completed Authority control and Persondata templates. Her pages at WD and were created -03-10. WD revised the page by reference to our {Persondata} -03-25. --P64 (talk)

I still think it's a good idea for us to deprecate this template. Asking editors to fill out 7 fields of data just so we can copy one of them elsewhere isn't a good solution. Kaldari (talk) 20:02, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Birth and death dates references.[edit]

I am working through my list where Wikidata does not match Persondata, and I just need to "vent my spleen". I did once bring this up at WP:BIOGRAPHY but not a lot happened. I am finding different birth and death dates sometimes within the article (main text and info box), often a different language Wikipedia has an alternative date. Some examples - Arno Bieberstein Hu Die Arno Bieberstein Ethem Nejat Carlos García-Bedoya

The big problem I am finding is that no one ever seems to provide a reference for the date of birth or death. I am unable to make a correction - all I can do is make a note on the talk page pointing out the discrepancy. Periglio (talk) 23:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Certainly yes, many biography pages provide vital data without a formal reference. Do you expect the superscript for a reference in the infobox, if available? or beside the lead parentheses? Do you look at the code or the rendered page only?
For one perhaps contrary instance, hours ago I inserted lead parentheses with birthdate and birthplace but ref#1 at the end of the lead sentence (current revision as I write). Is that bad practice? --P64 (talk) 03:10, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
I personally would prefer the reference in the main article, keeping the infobox clean. i am not aware of any consensus on that though. Periglio (talk) 17:34, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Periglio: When I find discrepant dates I make the effort to address the issue on the article's talk page, even if it is only to raise the issue. See, e.g. Talk:Gonzalo Jiménez de Quesada#Birth Date, Talk:Osman Nuri Pasha#Birth and death dates, Talk:Tlacaelel#What is correct DOB & DOD?? and Talk:G. G. Ponnambalam#Birth & Death dates. --Bejnar (talk) 22:42, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I have made a note on the various talk pages, but it is rare event if someone replies. Even the well known celebrity Jennifer Rush failed to get any response on her birth discrepancy. Periglio (talk) 17:34, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Which of course is an indicator of its relative importance. --Bejnar (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Linking within Persondata[edit]

My understanding was that there was no need for linking when specifying data within Persondata; yet I see lots of editors doing it. Although there is no linking in the example at Template:Persondata/doc, still it might be a good idea to specifically address the issue in Template:Persondata/doc. Is the linking a problem for computerized analysis or have the bots been instructed to ignore it? --Bejnar (talk) 22:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

There was discussion at Wikipedia talk:Persondata/Archive 7#Overlinking in Persondata. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:59, 1 April 2015 (UTC)