Wikipedia:Irish wikipedians' notice board/Archive14

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News - Wikipedia:Irish Wikipedians' notice board

The "News" section on Wikipedia:Irish Wikipedians' notice board is getting rather long - indeed its about half the page. I recommend that we remove any issues over a month irrespective of an issue been "cleared". This would be more objective, than say, going through each issue to determine its status and deciding if a removal is warranted.

Ultimately if people want to keep a more permanent record, or want discussion then this is the page for that material anyway. I propose that the News section be purged on a monthly basis, i.e. issues over a month should be deleted.

Any comments, or dissent. If their is no dissent then I will implement in 2/3 days. Djegan 17:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, good idea. The news section works well on a rolling window of what's currently happening, so I suggest it should be purged on an ongoing basis when people notice it getting long rather then just once a month though. (the latter has a sawtooth pattern, and would result in news added near to the end of a month getting less exposure then something added at the beginning of one). Perhaps adding a note to that affect in the source, e.g. "when adding news, please prune any news items older than one month" would suffice. Regards, 17:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I was just thinking the same thing a few days ago but thought it was not my place to purge anything from the page. I see that my first posting is still there from Dec 05 and it should really be gone. Perhaps a month is too short a time, maybe you should consider pruning it down to a reasonable length of about 1 or 2 screens full assuming all else is non-current. What is the policy for adding or removing items from the rest of the page? (You can reply to that question on my user page if you want). Cheers ww2censor 18:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - Was thinking the same recently but was unsure how to procede or whether to "archive" any older items. Per suggestion however, if something needs to be "kept alive", then it can be reposted. Guliolopez 10:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Name Question: O Carby

I've come across the name of an Irish harpist whose name is given as "O'Carby"; he was in the service of the son of the Earl of Ross, whom he killed. Does anyone here know what name "O'Carby" represents. I was guessing "Ó Cearbhaill", but this is just a guess. Anyone? Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 04:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, got it. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Trans Wiki Please

Can someone please tranlate [1] from what i could make out this artical has a lot of information thanks (Gnevin 23:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC))

It's a damn good article. I don't know anything about sport, so I won't translate it as I don't have the vocabulary in English or Irish. Ask Zoney? Evertype 21:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Tom Kettle

The article on Tom Kettle is in desperate need of cleanup. Evertype 21:43, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Irish Daily Mail

Hi. I've made a start on this article. Any contributions would be welcome. Cordless Larry 22:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Primary schools in Northern Ireland

I have been adding Primary schools articles for Northern Ireland, largely stubs, to which new contributors have started to add to and develop etc, but have come under attack by people proposing that all such primary school articles should be deleted as being non-notable etc. You can see the debate at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abercorn Primary School. A little help would be useful (assuming you agree with my arguments). Thanks. Ardfern 23:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Victims of The Troubles

I think this should be renamed to Category:People killed during The Troubles, or something similar. "Victim" seems POV to me. I'm also not sure you can label the paramilitaries of both sides as victims.

Same goes for the subcat Category:IRA murder victims to Category:People killed by the IRA. Any thoughts? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 09:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree on both categories. Not being familiar with the current category, does it contain non fatal victims or only those murdered? if it contains non fatal victims, you could be in trouble Dodge 11:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't checked every page, but pretty sure they were all killed. If everyone's happy enough I'll list it at Categories for discussion. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 11:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree - especially for the latter. While my personal thoughts and feelings conflict, the word "murder" is too evocative and pov. --Mal 05:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm confident they were all killed. Killed fits fine for me. Do people read 'IRA' as meaning in all it's variants, including the 'Real IRA' etc? User:Flexdream 9:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 13. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate use of "ref" formatting?

User:Tayana seams intent on using the <ref></ref> formatting in a widespread manner, see for instance Brian Lenihan, Charles Haughey, Mary Harney and Michael McDowell.

Is this usage approprate or excessive; as I believe it should be part of the narrative rather than in references and footnotes? See WP:FOOT - a guideline. Djegan 21:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think it's a good way of dealing with asides which are relatively unimportant and would disrupt the narrative. Wikipedia has a terrible tendency to put all sorts of relatively less important material - not to mention trivia that people like or think are more important than they really are - into articles, and while a lot of these shouldn't be there at all, certainly some of them can add to an article in a footnote. I don't see how it contravenes WP:SPOG either; the first sentence of that states that a footnote may "comment on" text, although all the rest of the guideline is about the technicalities of implementing the footnotes and using them to cite sources. Though doing this with the ref template does make an awful hames of the editing window. Palmiro | Talk 22:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Response - Footnotes "ref" and their utility

The "ref" tag is a footnote that allows additional peipheral information to be provided to elaborate on a point in the main article, that otherwise, if embedded in the article, would render it verbose and difficult to follow for someone seeking information rather than journalistic detail. as Demiurge seems to prefer. The use of explanatory footnotes is well established in academic texts.

A "ref" tag may also include external citations.

This is elaborated in ;

WP:FOOT which states ;

A footnote is a note placed at the bottom of a page of a document that comments on, and may cite a reference for, a part of the main text. The connection between the relevant text and its footnote is often indicated with a number or symbol which is used both after the text fragment and before the footnote. Footnotes are sometimes useful for relevant text that would distract from the main point if embedded in the main text, yet are helpful in explaining a point in greater detail. Footnotes are also often used to cite references which are relevant to a text. Citation of sources is important in supporting Verifiability, a key aspect of Wikipedia.

Tayana 23:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The WP:IMOS and Derry/Londonderry

This agreement which was agreed by 5 people has now become a stick which to beat common sense, I feel as US/British english solution would be best here , ie if the artical creater says Derry or it common knowledge for Derry to be used it stays as Derry such as Derry GAA,Celtic Park (Derry) and Owen Roe GAC and vice versa .

More over i feel WP:NC(CN) over rules WP:IMOS in most case's

Would anyone agree and more so support a push to have this changed.

(Gnevin 19:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC))

Disagree - that "agreement" has largly prevented the type of pov pushing on both sides that we see in other articles that are controversial in nature. Any change in the status quo would be a pov-pushers charter, every mention of Derry or Londonderry would become a revert war or consensus drive.

The city should be "Derry" and the county should be "Londonderry" except in the case of a specific person, place or organisation that requires otherwise; or a quotation. Djegan 20:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

In any case Derry GAA is the name of a specific organisation, whilst Celtic Park (Derry) is in Derry, and Owen Roe GAC is a stub. Djegan 20:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Celtic Park (Derry) was changed to Londonderry under WP:IMOS(Gnevin 20:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC))

A colour/color type agreement would be better than the current agreement (Gnevin 20:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC))

The only mention of Londonderry is Category:Sport in County Londonderry in that article, if you want to recat for the city, viz Category:Sport in Derry, thats a different matter and is not reliant on WP:IMOS but simply the most appropriate cateogory, viz the city or county one. Djegan 20:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It's one of those issues that no one is ever going to be happy with the overall result. If we start naming it Derry, unionists will complain and vice versa. The Derry/Londonderry solution is a fairly good one imo, as everyone wins in some insignifigant petty way. Pauric 20:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Good gods. I'll never understand this guff. Doire is ea Doire, an seanainm nádurthá, agus níl "Londaindoire" ach comhfhocal nuachumtha. Níl in "Londaindoire" ach míréasún stairiúil. Perhaps someone will do us the favour of writing a root-level User Preference where Derry can be displayed to the user as Londonderry, just as "September 19, 2006" can be rendered as "19 September 2006" or "2006-09-19".

To my shame I don't speak any Irish, so have no idea what the above says. Please contribute to discussions in English.

Pauric, if you support the current solution would you consider changing your vote in the CfD discussion? Would you not concede that in this case the county is beng referred to?

When are the Derry City Council set to hear whether the city will be officially renamed or not? The result of this will have to handled carefully. It's fairly obvious if the name is officially changed then the word Londonderry will disappear from Wikipedia overnight. However if the name change is rejected then what will happen? In my reasoning this will mean a change back to Londonderry as the default name. The reasoning behind this is that Londonderry will be confirmed as the offficial name and WP:NC(CN) isn't 100% clear in this case. There may be a slight bias towards Derry in common usage, but it's in no way overwhelmingly so. Any thoughts? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Stu, I'm afraid I feel slightly differently on that issue. On one hand, I support the policy as a means of ending argument, but on the other hand, in the case of GAA, it's silly to change it to Derry, regardless of the general solution. Whether the wikipedia policy and UK governments names call it Londonderry or not, the GAA in Derry is known as the GAA in Derry to anyone that talks about it generally. If we change it to Londonderry, it'll end up in a revert war, or there'll be at least a proposal to change it again next month from a nationalist, then if it gets changed, we'll have the same disuccsion the following month the same from a unionist. Pauric 17:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Pauric, there's no reason to feel differently on this issue. As stated, the county is being referred to. So as per the agreement it is Londonderry. An organisation can choose whatever they like to call themselves, but this has no bearing on the name of the county. You can't selectively choose when and when not to support the policy. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Doire is ea Doire, an seanainm nádurthá, agus níl "Londaindoire" ach comhfhocal nuachumtha. Níl in "Londaindoire" ach míréasún stairiúil.

Derry is Derry, the old natural(?) name, and "Londonderry" is only a madeup word. The only reasons to use "Londonderry" are bad historical ones(? - I think). Frelke 09:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

'Derry is Derry, the natural old name, and "Londonderry" is only a newly-created compound. "Londonderry" is just historical mis-reason.' -- Evertype·✆

In GAA circles, there is no "Londonderry", and it really should be changed back to Derry. While many while the WP:IMOS is a good agreement, there must be a point where common sense takes precedent. It isn't the be-all and end-all of everything. I'm from County Derry, whats next?, will I have to change my username? (Derry Boi 20:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC))

Change your username, stop been silly, keep to the point been discussed. The issue at stake here is the city and county - and how they should be represented. This issue is not going to be hi-jacked by nationalist and unionists pov-pushers. Face the fact of the long standing consensus which has kept the peace. Djegan 20:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that in any case it's outrageous that it was renamed against consensus. Consensus for such discussions is taken to be 60:40, in this case there was a 64:36 split against. I suggest renomination as this was clearly a mistake by the closing admin. Palmiro | Talk 20:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Help with a couple of Irish name translations.

Can someone in the know please give me the Irish translations of the following surnames:

Sands
Hurson
Stagg

I'm thinking Stagg is English and Sands is probably Viking origin. I could hazard an educated guess of the translation of Hurson, but I may be wrong.

Thanks. (Derry Boi 20:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC))

Are we just providing translations of names that any one with a basic knowledge of Irish could formulate (i.e. no original research allowed here) or are we providing Irish names of said persons as generally recognised or used by said person? We should not as a matter of course provide Irish names simply because they are Irish people, we need to show relevance and prior usage. Wikipedia is not a list of indiscriminate information! Djegan 20:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest

Sands
Stagg
Hurson

Palmiro | Talk 20:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

What exactly did you suggest?

Yes I'm looking translations for Bobby Sands, Frank Stagg and Martin Hurson. Given that many historical irish figures have their names in both Irish and English on Wikipedia, I don't see why they shouldn't. (Derry Boi 20:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC))

Bobby Sands has an article in Vicipéid entitled "Roibeard Gearóid Ó Seachnasaigh". In the same article, Martin Hurson is referred to as "Máirtín Ó hUrsain". Frank Stagg doesn't seem to get a mention anywhere in Vicipéid (Emmet Stagg also has an article in English Wikipedia but without an Irish name). Scolaire 21:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I would've got Martin Hurson right anyway :) Thanks. (Derry Boi 08:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)).

Holy Wells

It's my understanding that Well dressing is also practiced in Ireland and Scotland. Does anyone have any reliable sources on this? If not, and if it's not appropriate to add Irish traditions to the Well dressing article, perhaps we need a Holy Wells article that can focus on Irish holy well traditions, and possibly well-veneration traditions from other cultures. --Kathryn NicDhàna 02:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There's loads of stuff on wells in the Logan book who's name escapes me. There's also Sacred Waters by Janet and Colin Bord [2]. Well dressing is more associated with English and Welsh custom, though. It *did* occur in Ireland though, although the Catholic Church tried to stamp out the 'pagan' practice of well rituals in the 18th and 19th centuries. It still goes on, though. Look at the book Fish. Stone. Water if you get the chance - Alison ^✍ 03:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Patrick Logan, The Holy Wells of Ireland. I've got it here, but he doesn't use the phrase "well dressing" in the index. There's tons of stuff on doing what I consider the same thing, though. I'll have to decide if I'm up to inputting that stuff. I did an edit on the Well dressing article to mention it's not only an English custom, and got reverted. --Kathryn NicDhàna 04:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Followup: The situation seems to have been resolved by focusing on the Scottish and Irish traditions in the Clootie well article. I added some cites from Logan, but so far it's still fairly stubbish. --Kathryn NicDhàna 20:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Plastic Paddy

This was only a mention in the Paddy article, so I started a stub for it. --Kathryn NicDhàna 20:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Counties of Northern Ireland

Their is a relatively new article counties of Northern Ireland - how do wikipedians feel about this offshoot from counties of Ireland. Is it a sustainable article in its own right, or a pov-fork?

One the one hand it must be considered that the counties, as counties of Ireland, have a cultural, historic and traditional sense - whilst on the other they have no administrative effect in Northern Ireland and their only official usage is as places for the purposes of the Lord Lieutenancy.

Comments welcome, and requested. Djegan 16:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I feel fine about the article. I don't see what "pov" has to do with it. Northern Ireland consists of (six) counties in the same way that Ireland consists of (32) counties, the Republic of Ireland consists of (26) counties, the United Kingdom consists of (91) counties, England consists of (x) counties, Wales consists of (y) counties and Scotland consists of (z) counties. It is fact - not "pov". --Mal 17:23, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't really think it could be classed as POV. Although not politically important the fact they are used in the first paragraph of Northern Ireland to explain the make-up is notable. There are similar articles for traditional and Lieutenancy areas of England, Scotland and Wales.

Another point for its creation, I think, is that the Counties of Ireland article seems to be a bit more focused on their use as Administrative divisions of Ireland, look at the huge Politics of Ireland template on the right. Maybe a case could be made to create an Administrative subdivisions of Ireland(CLC34) article to explain the counties administrative/political usage. Use Counties of Ireland(C32 merge C6 into it) to explain their traditional/cultural usage. <font="center" color="#FFFFFF"> Keithology Talk 16:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:IWNB page

Hi all. There are large chunks of information on WP:IWNB that date back to over a year ago (Guinness, etc). Can I go ahead and delete them if they're, say, over a year old? Does it make sense to create an archive for IWNB similar to this talk page? I'll take it on if needs be ... - Alison ^✍ 17:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Irish Language Help Needed

I would appreciate someone with better Gaeilge looking at the Fulacht fiadh article and talk page. I have done my best to repair and explain, but I am barely a learner as Gaeilge. There is also some discussion about whether to merge the article into Burnt mound, but I think the Irish name deserves an article itself (and is the original article, the Burnt mound one being newly started by someone who has only English). --Kathryn NicDhàna 19:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

DYK

The DYK section featured on the main page is always looking for interesting new and recently expanded stubs from different parts of the world. Please make a suggestion.--Peta 02:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Irish location stubs by country

Several more counties are article populous enough to justify their own geo-stub type: I've proposed Kerry, Galway and Mayo such, here. Alai 04:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Shetla Phonology

I've been trying to work out Shelta's phonology in IPA, but I'm having a tough time of it because I don't speak it. Any help would be appreciated. --Lim e tom 10:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Cork - Irish biased

The vote at talk:Cork#Survey has recently seen claims that their is an "Irish bias" because the vote has come very close to 50/50. Comments and votes welcome, from anyone. Djegan 15:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Date of birth ?

Any editor able to find an exact date of birth for Francis John Byrne ? Would be much appreciated. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Máire Nic an Bhaird case

Does anyone have any updates on this? The most recent news I've seen is from September. Thanks! --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Dont know but I started a page on her, there is a lot that needs adding to it Vintagekits 22:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Ardagh Chalice

I was just looking at the Ardagh Chalice article and especially at the bit at the end concerning Maurice Cotterall's assertion that it is the Holy Grail. Should it be moved to a seperate section or removed? (And I would have to admit that I would go for the second option there.) Flowerpotman 01:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)