Talk:AR15 (disambiguation)

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Order[edit]

  • ArmaLite AR-15 came first.
  • Colt AR-15 came second.
  • AR-15 variants came after the Colt patents expired. Therefore all variants come under Colt AR-15.--RAF910 (talk) 17:10, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
All of those are AR-15 variants. So the broader topic comes first. Felsic2 (talk) 17:28, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NO...They are Colt AR-15 variants. I know your having difficulty understanding the basic timeline. Perhaps it would be easier to change the name to Colt AR-15 variants. A sub-category of the Colt AR-15.--RAF910 (talk) 17:33, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Family tree would look something like this... 

   M16 variants  AR-15 variants
        |             |
        |             |
     M16 rifle   Colt AR-15
           \        /
            \      /
       ArmaLite AR-15
               | 
               |
          ArmaLite AR-10

--RAF910 (talk) 17:44, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We don' have an article for "Colt AR-15 variants". How come we don't have an article simply titled "AR-15"? Felsic2 (talk) 18:38, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why?...Because your ideas have been rejected by your fellow editors. And, as you were part of those discussions on various talk pages, you know full well what happen. So, stop pretending that you don't understand what going on. Perhaps, you should read WP:Not listening.--RAF910 (talk) 15:59, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:RAF910, could you add your timeline into this article and the other articles to illustrate the sequence?

Suggestion,CuriousMind01 (talk) 03:02, 12 September 2016 (UTC) add arrows to illustrate the direction.[reply]

@RAF910: I don't see where there was any discussion of having an AR-15 article. BTW, do you have any source for the concept of AR-15 variants as written? Felsic2 (talk) 21:14, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Becoming a sales guide again[edit]

Now we're back to listing companies that make an AR variant, even if the rifle itself isn't notable. This is becoming a dumping ground for blue links again. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:18, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Referring to your comments in the edit summary. You’re mistaken, they are all AR-15 type rifles and are all commonly called AR-15. However, their manufactures do not mark them as such because Colt holds the AR-15 trademark. Referring to your comments here. Perhaps, we can limit the list to only the most notable ARs made by major manufactures or that have their own articles (Bushmaster XM15, S&W M&P15, H&K 416 etc.) As for Modern Sporting Rifle (MSR), it is a recognized and well sourced term for the AR-15 class of firearm. Please, see AR-15 Variant talk page.--Limpscash (talk) 04:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, I'm not wrong. The entire reason the articles were split was because AR-15 is a trademark of Colt. The others are AR-15 VARIANTS, which is another article. Whatever you are proposing on the other page isn't in effect here, now. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:54, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand where your going. It seems like you just repeated what I said above. This article is just redirect page for various AR-15 related articles. I simply want to add list of generic AR-15 type rifles (Bushmaster XM15, S&W M&P15, H&K 416 etc.) to the page. All of these firearms are commonly called AR-15. This would give the reader the greatest number of choices. For example: The reader may know that S&W makes an AR-15. But, does not know the exact name. He types AR-15, he's brought to this page, he sees S&W M&P15, he clicks on it and voila he's redirected to the page he wants.--Limpscash (talk) 04:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article is for AR-15, not variants. A long list of variants is not only improper, it serves no purpose to further this article. This information seeker you use and an example could just as easily type in "Smith & Wesson" to lead them to the same rifle. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:44, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • So you would be ok with removing AR-15 variants from the list? Because, I'm ok with that--RAF910 (talk) 04:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd leave the list of Colt AR15 variants, because they are actually variants of the AR15. The CAR15 is also a real AR15. The entry AR15 variants should go though Niteshift36 (talk) 18:35, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sounds good to me. Remove "AR-15 variant". For informational purposes...I was half joking with you. By the way, good job at keeping Felsic2 at bay during my absence.

Proposal made on the AR-15 variant talk page[edit]

The following Proposal has been made on the AR-15 variant page. As it effects this page as well I've moved it over here.

For the record, I support Limpscash suggestion that we turn "the AR-15 variant page into a redirect to the List of Colt AR-15 variants page. Then we turn the AR-15 page into a redirect to the Colt AR-15 page. Then we create an AR-15 (disambiguation) page." As this makes sense to me, and the more I think about it, the better it sounds. This is how we should have set these pages up in the first place.--RAF910 (talk) 22:27, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal[edit]

As User:Felsic2 has repeatedly stated, over, and over, and over again (above), AR-15 variant is not a proper term for these firearms. It appears to be a construct invented by this page’s creator as he did not know what else to call it. User:Mike Searson suggested renaming this page Modern Sporting Rifle. All kidding aside, Modern Sporting Rifle (MSR), is a recognize and well sourced term for this class of firearm. Therefore, I recommend that this article be transformed into a redirect to the MSR article, which already exists and which already mirrors this article.

Please, vote YEA or NAY below:

I vote YEA--Limpscash (talk) 04:16, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Felsic2 says a lot of things and many of them are incorrect. Why exactly is this not a correct term? Niteshift36 (talk) 17:23, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree, Felsic2 says a lot of things over, and over, and over again, and many of them are incorrect. What I’m saying is that “Modern Sporting Rifle (MSR)” is a superior term. It is a recognize and well sourced term for the AR-15 class of firearm. The MSR article already exists and already mirrors this article. As there is no point in having two separate articles covering the same subject, I recommend that this unsourced term AR-15 variant article be converted into a redirect to the well sourced term MSR article. I’m not asking for the term “AR-15 variant” to be eliminated, just redirected.--Limpscash (talk) 03:54, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • MSR may be a nice term, but it covers far more than AR15 variants. What you are proposing is akin to taking the articles on the Corvette, Mustang and Camaro and redirecting them to automobile, since they're all commonly referred to as cars. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:56, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have no desire to endlessly debate this Proposal. We disagree. I think having one article is preferable. Let's see what the rest of the Wikipedia community thinks.--Limpscash (talk) 04:05, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endlessly debate it? You haven't really engaged in any discussion. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support...this article was created to appease Felsic2. It didn't work. While it has been improved I've always considered it FUBAR. --RAF910 (talk) 04:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • The problem with the proposal is the redirect suggestion. It's not really a good one. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:51, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • What if we bring the page up for deletion? I'm not half joking this time. Do you think the others editor would support it or would it be waste of time? Maybe we should open another proposal?--RAF910 (talk) 01:48, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm open to change, but redirecting this to MSR simply isn't a good proposal. Like I said, it's like taking the article about the Piper Cub and the B-52 to airplane. Just change/moving for the sake of moving isn't the answer. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:11, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete...I changed my mind. This article more trouble than it's worth. We should just kill it.--RAF910 (talk) 03:46, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:Mike Searson also suggested deletion above. Although, it appears to be a sarcastic comment made in frustration. He also called these weapons "Black Rifles". A Wikipedia search shows that the term already links to the AR-15 article.--Limpscash (talk) 04:22, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Black Rifle can be used to describe both the AR-15 and the M16 rifle. Here we have the problem with this article. First, we are trying to invent a term to describe this class of firearm. Second, we have to deal with propaganda and misinformation. For example the machinegun info that you have thankfully removed this article, and the obsession that some editors have with adding terrorist attacks and mass murderers, and criminal users to every firearms article that they can get away with. It's better to just delete the article and be done with it--RAF910 (talk) 15:07, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • NAY. Modern Sporting Rifle (MSR) has a different, broader meaning than AR-15 Variant. Specifically, Modern Sporting Rifle also commonly includes numerous other designs than those based solely upon the AR-15 platform. MSRs can include AR-15 Variants, FN FAL Variants, AK-47 Variants, and a host of other designs, too, configured into a common sporting rifle configuration. Lots of plastic, hand grips, removable standard capacity (e.g., 30 round) magazines, and a host of other features, such as flash suppressors, muzzle breaks,etc. Scant stocks (i.e., stocks san pistol grips) are not seen on MSRs. So, NAY, as an MSR is a much broader category term than AR-15 Variant. MSR is not a synonym for an AR-15 based platform. An AR-15 Variant is but one type of MSR. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 19:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Limpscash, Niteshift36, RAF910, and Miguel Escopeta: Nay and alternative suggestion: I believe a simpler and more logical solution would be to move "AR-15" to "AR-15 (disambiguation)", and "AR-15 variant" to "AR-15". Thanks, RadiculousJ (talk) 01:14, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree with Limpscash. This makes sense to me--RAF910 (talk) 06:00, 14 May 2017 (UTC).[reply]

Requested move 19 May 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Abandoned. No such user (talk) 14:46, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]


AR-15 → Colt AR-15 – I request move per talk page discussion Limpscash (talk) 05:41, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't look right to me. What I'm trying to do is turn this page into a redirect to the Colt AR-15 page and add the info on this page to the AR-15 (disambiguation) page. It was working perfectly. But, User ‎BilCat reverted it, calling it a "cut and paste" and left a note and instructions on my talk page. I followed them and now it seems as if I want to rename this page Colt AR-15 and delete the Colt AR-15 page. Which is not what I want to do at all. I don't know how to fix this.--Limpscash (talk) 06:40, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

*Support...I agree, the AR-15 page should be turned into a redirect to the Colt AR-15 page. And, the info on this page should be added to the AR-15 (disambiguation) page. What I think happened, is that Bilcat was concerned about the "cut and paste" to the AR-15 (disambiguation) page. And, instead wants the AR-15 page to be renamed AR-15 (disambiguation) in order to preserve the pages history. Once that is done, then turn the new AR-15 redirect to the AR-15 (disambiguation) page into a redirect to the Colt AR-15 page. I think Lempscash misinterpreted what Bilcat wanted to do, as renaming the AR-15 page to Colt AR-15.--RAF910 (talk) 14:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • OK I have attempted to correct the error and made the move. I hope this is acceptable--RAF910 (talk) 16:22, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, do not perform a cut and paste move. And it is highly inappropriate to take action while this move discussion is under way. older ≠ wiser 16:24, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm quite confused by what this move request is actually requesting (and the preceding TLDR discussion is of no help). This page is a set index. As such it should not be moved to AR-15 (disambiguation) since it is not currently a disambiguation page. Considering there is no additional content on the set index that would not be on a disambiguation page, I don't see much of an issue with changing the template out. older ≠ wiser 16:34, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Bk, thanks for clarifying on the SIA ve DAB page. To be clear, I wasn't objecting to a move, only the cut-paste aspect which broke the page histories. - BilCat (talk) 16:54, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems as if there's a misunderstanding between Bilcat and Limpscash. What Limpcash wants to do is use the term "AR-15" as a redirect to the Colt AR-15. And, he wants to use the AR-15 (disambiguation) page as a disambiguation page instead as a redirect to this page. As this page is being used as a disambiguation anyway I see no issue with the change.--RAF910 (talk) 17:15, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry guy's. I totally screwed this up. Please ignore the above renamed and moved. I would greatly appreciate if someone could delete it. I don't know how to do so myself. I think/hope I got it right this time below.--Limpscash (talk) 04:21, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Let's try that again.--Limpscash (talk) 04:34, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 20 May 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move AR-15 to AR-15 (disambiguation). RAF910 (talk) 15:09, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]


AR-15 → AR-15 (disambiguation) – Per talk page discussion. As RAF stated above, I want "to use the AR-15 (disambiguation) page as a disambiguation page instead as a redirect to this page. As this page is being used as a disambiguation anyway I see no issue with the change" Limpscash (talk) 04:34, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • SUPPORT--RAF910 (talk) 14:31, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Finally, a move that makes sense. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:49, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose until you specify which contents should be at the title AR-15. Per WP:DABNAME, The title of a disambiguation page is the ambiguous term itself, provided there is no primary topic for that term. and later on if "Term ABC" is a disambiguation page, a redirect from "Term ABC (disambiguation)" should be created if it does not already exist. This type of redirect is used to indicate any intentional links to the disambiguation page – which is exactly what we have now. Now, as a non-specialist, I gather that the history of AR-15 family of rifles is complicated (and I can't wrap my head around it), and something else can plausibly be written under this title, but you have to decide what: move Colt AR-15 here? Or redirect AR-15 to Colt AR-15? Or move List of Colt AR-15 variants here? Or write a completely new article (see WP:CONCEPTDAB for guidance, particularly the "Nokia Lumia" example)? No such user (talk) 15:02, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is a two step process...Step 1) move AR-15 to AR-15 (disambiguation)...Step 2) redirect AR-15 to Colt AR-15...When done anyone searching for "AR-15" will be sent to the Colt AR-15 page where at the top of the page they will find the following link
      For the select-fire rifle of a similar name, see ArmaLite AR-15. For other uses, see AR-15 (disambiguation).
      It should be noted that anyone currently searching for AR15 with no hyphen is sent to the Colt AR-15 page. While this move may seem confusing and complicated right now, it will simply searches for "AR-15" and send user to the correct page on the first click.--RAF910 (talk) 16:04, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

.

Alternative proposal[edit]

OK, upon familiarizing myself with the topic, here's what I would do:

  1. Merge ArmaLite AR-15 into Colt AR-15 – this is basically the same weapon which saw brand change and some further development. The former article is mostly about history, and it also covers a fair deal of the Colt era. It could start with e.g.
    AR-15 is a selective-fire, 5.56×45mm, air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed rifle, originally designed in 1957 by ArmaLite as ArmaLite AR-15. In 1959, due to financial difficulties ArmaLite sold the design rights to the AR-10 and AR-15 to Colt, who has made many different types of AR-15 rifle and carbine models. After Colt's patents expired in 1977, other manufacturers have made AR-15 clones and variants marketed under separate designations, although these are frequently referred to as AR-15s.
  2. Move the result to AR-15 and the current AR-15 to AR-15 (disambiguation). Now we have a sensible {{main}} article summarizing all of the AR-15 history and variants (see e.g. AR-10).
  3. Move List of Colt AR-15 variants to List of AR-15 variants
  4. Leave the spin-offs CAR-15 and Colt Automatic Rifle (CAR) where they are, and link them from this article as needed.

Thoughts? No such user (talk) 15:25, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose...Despite having similar names, the ArmaLite AR-15 and Colt AR-15 are different rifles. One is a machinegun...one is not. One they stopped making in 1964...one they still make today. One is a very rare highly valued collector piece that cost upward of $50,000, that may only be purchased by those who have special licenses and who pay special taxes...one is $1000 rifle that can bought by anyone, in any gun store in the U.S....What you want to do would lead readers to believe that ALL AR-15s are machineguns. Combining the ArmaLite AR-15 and Colt AR-15 articles would be no different than combining the Colt AR-15 and M16 rifle articles --RAF910 (talk) 16:04, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    RAF910: I appreciate your arguments, but our articles are currently a mess, and as a non-expert reader I can barely tell the difference. ArmaLite AR-15 is all about history, and nothing about construction; Colt AR-15 is all about construction and almost nothing about history. If we take for granted that ArmaLite sold the patent to Colt in 1959, why does the infobox in ArmaLite AR-15 say that it was in production between 1959 and 1964, and that it was produced by Colt?
    Now, if you're telling me that the cutoff point between "ArmaLite AR-15" and "Colt AR-15" is not the patent transfer, but Colt's addition of semi-automatic mechanism (in 1964 presumably?), I can accept that, but that's quite difficult to conclude from reading the articles. It should be made crystal clear in article leads and History sections, if you don't want to merge. No such user (talk) 08:45, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    If you read the ArmaLite AR-15 article (not just the infobox) you will find the Colt made rifles that were stamped "Colt ArmaLite AR-15 Model 01" during that period. In 1964, Colt introduced the semi-auto Colt AR-15. The only reason that Colt used the AR-15 name for their semi-auto rifle was to "pay homage" to its predecessor the ArmaLite AR-15 rifle. It would have been a lot easier if they simply called it the Colt Sporter to begin with. Because, like you most people have very limited knowledge about firearms and they're history........Look, forget about the select-fire Armalite AR-15 it was only made for 5 years and hasn't been made for over 52 years. Today, when you hear someone talking about an AR-15, they're talking about the semi-auto Colt AR-15. The whole point of what we are trying to do here is redirect all AR-15 searches to the Colt AR-15 page in an effort to reduce the confusion........Now, that said, the biggest single problem we have on the Wiki firearms articles, is that the are many political propagandist here that are doing everything in their power to convince the reader that all AR-15s are machineguns, that they are all weapons of war, weapons of terror, weapons of mass murder and that should all be banned. To them the more confusion the better. So, you have choice, you can trust the firearm experts when they tell you that ArmaLite AR-15 and the Colt AR-15 are different rifles that share common history. Or, you can buy a dozen books on the subject, read them, learn them and become a firearms expert yourself. Or, you can remain confused. If you decide to remain confused then please don't edit these articles. Because, your fellow editors have no way of knowing if you just confused, or if your political propagandist. And, they will have very little patience with you.--RAF910 (talk) 15:11, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, I did read it, (somewhat superficially, I admit) but the sentence is well-hidden in the middle of a paragraph in the middle of the long history section. Should be stressed in the lead.
    Your snark is uncalled for, I'm just a accidental passer-by who got here from the Requested Moves and have no agenda whatsoever. And I'm trying to communicate that purely from readers' viewpoint (and we're doing this for the readers), the distinction and history of various rifles named AR-15 in our articles is rather confusing and calls for more reader-friendly presentation. No such user (talk) 08:57, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    The proposed lead paragraph below, which you wrote in your own words. Describes ALL AR-15 as selective-fire rifles. In other words, they are ALL MACHINEGUNS. Which is in fact, flat-out wrong. I fail to see how combining the ArmaLite AR-15 and Colt AR-15 articles will lead to a more "reader-friendly presentation". It will have the opposite effect. It will cause more confusion.
    AR-15 is a selective-fire, 5.56×45mm, air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed rifle, originally designed in 1957 by ArmaLite as ArmaLite AR-15. In 1959, due to financial difficulties ArmaLite sold the design rights to the AR-10 and AR-15 to Colt, who has made many different types of AR-15 rifle and carbine models. After Colt's patents expired in 1977, other manufacturers have made AR-15 clones and variants marketed under separate designations, although these are frequently referred to as AR-15s.
    By your own admission, you barely read this article before you started editing. What makes you think that anyone else will read past the above paragraph, which you wrote? I absolutely oppose combining the two articles.--RAF910 (talk) 21:54, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    (No such user) As I see this, you’re in over your head, trying to edit a subject which you clearly know nothing about. I myself, totally screwed-up the above section. I apologized and asked that the whole section be deleted. Perhaps you should do the same.--Limpscash (talk) 04:11, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks you for the kind words; it's a pleasure to have a friendly discussion with you guys. If you may notice, I only created a proposal on the talk page, which you are free to disagree with, and I haven't even edited the articles substantially, but only edited the lead to repeat the major points from the article text. I'm not going to push it against the consensus. We don't delete talk page discussions just because some proposals were rejected. As for selective-fire vs. semi-automatic, yeah, I got that; with weapons and many other devices, many designs have evolved to the point of having little to do with the original, but can still be considered the part of the same lineage. Apart from the name, Toyota Corolla from 2017 has little in common with the 1966 original, but we still have a single overview page for it, with spinoffs as necessary. We use editorial discretion and consensus how to delineate and structure articles in such cases. I may know little about rifles, but I have quite some experience as an editor and reader of Wikipedia that I can tell you my opinion and make a proposal how to improve the article, which you can accept or reject. And I'm fine with being rejected, if only you could do that with less hostility. Good bye. No such user (talk) 09:35, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sorry for being a snarky. Some of your suggestions were indeed helpful and the Armalite AR-15 page was improved as a result. But please understand, I've dealt with users in the past with no real firearm knowledge trying to rewrite a hundred years of history to match their POV. They always believe that they are right and that everyone else is wrong. They waste everyone's time and exhaust the good will of the fellow editors. Until they're voted off the island. SEE User talk:TeeTylerToe--RAF910 (talk) 15:06, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • OPPOSE. The Colt AR-15 is not a select-fire assault rifle or machinegun.--Limpscash (talk) 04:20, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Update Redirect[edit]

I would propose changing the redirect for this page AR-15 from linking from Colt AR-15 to List of Colt AR-15 variants since this seems clearer on the distinction per discussion and thoughts on Talk:Colt_AR-15. I will update here now, but if anyone has strong feelings, please feel free to revert and discuss here. Shaded0 (talk) 19:46, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose- the consensus WP:primary topic is Colt AR-15. Note the hatnote on that article. Also note the Modern sporting rifle article--Limpscash (talk) 05:08, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you please link to the discussion on the previous talk on where the consensus came from for this? I am not finding it. I will read the above discussion when I get the time to.. Thanks Shaded0 (talk) 15:25, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Right, the above was my edit summary on the revert. I have made several edits to fix the navigation structure in this general topic area to avoid confusion, including THIS FIX which addresses the issue that prompted the request to change the target of this redirect. See also Category:AR-15 platform firearms. The main article for that category is Modern sporting rifle. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:54, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "AR-15 most commonly refers to the Colt AR-15". The Colt AR-15 page has a hatnote that redirects to both the ArmaLite AR-15 and to the AR-15 (disambiguation) pages. The Colt AR-15 page has a section devoted to the Modern Sporting Rifle with the appropriate link. I see no reason to make the above change. Except, to make those with limited firearms knowledge to believe that all AR-15s are machineguns. --RAF910 (talk) 19:25, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose simply for not making sense. The Colt AR-15 article is the most logical place for this to go when compared to the variants article. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:38, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fine. I still don't think the existing pages give enough context though on the terminology. Common use would say that the term AR-15 for this type of a rifle has WAY more usage still across the internet than the term Modern Sporting Rifle. All the sites I have found on this give the term MSR virtually no reference, so in the way that it is commonly referenced I still think it makes sense to reflect this terminology (I don't really GAF if it's correct or incorrect) insofar as the article should be helpful for the WP GENERAL AUDIENCE. WP:Writing_better_articles#Provide_context_for_the_reader Shaded0 (talk) 20:13, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I get that you really, really want to find a way for people to make this connection between rifles of a certain design and criminal uses, but that's not really how it works. There are other articles (and you've found them) where you can try that. Some people do GAF if the information in the encyclopedia is actually correct. The fact that you'd say that you do not troubles me.Niteshift36 (talk) 20:59, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's seriously a blatant over-simplification. Just because gun folks that are "technical" are aware of the difference doesn't mean a general audience would be. Thus the point of making the distinction more notable, even if it is in the negative. Clearly and sufficiently.
Several examples just recently:
The fact that Wikipedia editors have decided to push the common-use term of AR-15 (because its a trademark) into Modern Sporting Rifle, which has virtually no common usage seems to me to be very wiki-lawyering. WP:COMMON sense for me would dictate that we would have a common page, to include AR-15 information. Ignoring the trademark bullshit.
Shaded0 (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • For someone who doesn't GAF, you are still acting like you do. 1) Trademarks aren't bullshit. You may have a personal belief in this matter, but laws....and Wikipedia policy.... say trademarks aren't bullshit. 2) you listed a 4 sources that many argue are not reliable sources. While I think Breitbart and the NRA are reasonably reliable, many do not. 3) After USA Today's absurd piece yesterday, which got them soundly roasted across the internet, using them as evidence of anything about AR's is laughable.[1]. "Two point suspension slings?" Yes, those were also popular with flintlock rifles USA Today. "Chainsaw bayonets"? Smh. It's not about "technical" awareness, it's just awareness. Perhaps that's why it helps to have people who actually understand the topic edit articles, not just people who want to prove something. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:46, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As much as I dislike using Google search comparisons, I'd draw attention to the fact that "Modern Sporting Rifle" (quotes) returns 91,100 results versus. "ar-15 -colt" excluding COLT from the results for AR-15 draws 26,900,000 results. It's clearly a generic term that I think favors it's usage in a broader sense outside of just COLT and ArmaLite rifles. Shaded0 (talk) 22:11, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Look at the flaw in what you just said. Every article that correctly says "Ar-15 style" would be in that result. Your "proof" uses people doing it correctly to support you doing it incorrectly. And again....band-aid and kleenex.....Niteshift36 (talk) 14:46, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Niteshift36: your comments seem largely to be based upon ad hominem and largely miss the point. Wikipedia is not intended to be prescriptivists in how we use language. If the use of the term by media and common sources give "AR-15 Type" as its use, I think it fair to have the main page AR-15 redirects to being something that does not mislead the reader. In common usage, AR-15 is a TYPE and not a COPYRIGHT. Given those points - it seems misguided to redirect to COLT and ignore the common use.

USA Today point seems also largely irrelevent - we can nitpick that if you want and I agree its silly. "Modern Sporting Rifle" just seems like marketing sophistry to me to downplay the "assault rifle" characterization. I agree it's "complex" - but staying on topic, I think it comes down to a language issue. Do we care about how it is actually used? I would argue yes, and have redirects/titles/lede sections reflect this. Shaded0 (talk) 15:09, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Actually, there's no ad hominem. What point did I miss? That you don't GAF? That you think trademarks are bullshit? The USA Today example actually isn't irrelevant, especially when you are putting forth USA Today as an example to support your position. Their lack of knowledge about the topic is certainly germane to the discussion. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:30, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to request dispute resolution on this here for additional opinions. See link: Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:AR-15_(disambiguation) Shaded0 (talk) 15:19, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • After 2-3 days, with consensus and previous discussions against you, the jump to DRN isn't the right move IMO. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:41, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Shaded0 makes some good points. It's a good idea to take a step back to look at the history and the big picture. Up until 19 August 2016, the AR-15 article was a broad-concept article which covered both the ArmaLite and Colt variants, as well as other manufacturers' clones (note the infobox shows a list of manufacturers). Then, based on "a modest proposal", after a day or two of discussion, RAF910 moved AR-15 to Colt AR-15 over the redirect and created a new ArmaLite AR-15 article, thus narrowing the scope of the AR-15 article, and effectively "deleting" the broad-concept article. This is almost always a mistake, as it leaves a void needing to be filled, which generally results in an unstable configuration like the one we have now. The void was filled by creating a new disambiguation that was really a WP:NOTDAB: a list article about a set of items of a specific type that share the same (or similar) name. This is what it looked like a day later. Then, after the decision to make Colt AR-15 the primary topic, the {{SIA}} was changed to a {{Disambiguation}} tag on 28 May 2017, to conform with the (disambiguation) parenthetical in the AR-15 (disambiguation) page title. Modern sporting rifle was created on 12 December 2012. Hey, slow down with the "dispute resolution" – there's no need to turn this into a drama-fest! – wbm1058 (talk) 15:43, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok - agreed on the points @Wbm1058:. Apologies on the over-escalation on this. Shaded0 (talk) 16:12, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's worth pointing out that much of the previous redirects etc were a result of similar circumstances, where an editor or two felt the need to try to force criminal use events (and implications) into articles that went against the consesus at the Firearms project. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The original AR-15 page was fatality flawed and did everything in it's power to convince the reader that ALL AR-15s were machineguns. That page made no distinction between the ArmaLite AR-15, the M16 rifle, the Colt AR-15 and generic AR-15s. Almost every section included some machinegun content. Including discussions of machinegun conversions of semi-auto AR-15s. The purchase of drop-in auto sears, etc. A decision was made to divide the content among 3 separate pages, the ArmaLite AR-15 page devoted the early select-fire Armalite AR-15 that has not been made since 1964, the Colt AR-15 page devoted to the commercially available semi-auto Colt AR-15, and the AR-15 page became the AR-15 Variant page which continued virtually untouched. Approximately, 9 months later the AR-15 Variant page was the subject of a major rewrite and the machinegun content was removed. However, it was decided that the page was still confusing and ultimately redundant. The AR-15 Variant page became a redirect to the List of Colt AR-15 variants page. At the same time the term "AR-15" was moved from a redirect to the AR-15 (disambiguation) page to a redirect to the Colt AR-15 page. Because, when someone uses the term "AR-15" they are talking about the semi-auto Colt AR-15s and their copies. The Colt AR-15 page very clearly explains this. Quite recently, the Modern sporting rifle page which (as mentioned above) was created in 2012, long before this changes were made, was brought to the forefront when User:Wbm1058 added it to the Colt AR-15 pages "Marketplace" section as the a main article redirect. User:Limpscash then renamed that section Modern sporting rifle. That should bring everyone up to date. The key point which some users refuse to accept, is when someone uses the term "AR-15" they are talking about the semi-auto Colt AR-15s and their copies. They are not talking about the select-fire Armalite AR-15 that has not been made since 1964.--RAF910 (talk) 17:40, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@RAF910: Thanks for the clarifications.
Separate points that I personally think remain outstanding..
  1. Are redirects still suitable as is per this point, without misguiding the reader?
  2. Can issues of clarity be remedied with the current pages we have? I believe yes.
  3. Is Modern sporting rifle the correct term to use for non-Colt or non-Armalite variants? I think this is an open question - per my points above on search term usage. I think this is still unclear since its not a very commonly used term. This was then the point I was making above. Correct me if I am wrong or people have differing opinions on this one.
  • The suggestion I am personally leaning towards is the AR-15 redirect should instead link to Modern sporting rifle instead of to the Colt AR-15 page. This is not an *obvious* point, and open for debate // probably consensus or new survey of audience on this.
These are the main questions I have at the moment. Shaded0 (talk) 18:35, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, when someone uses the term "AR-15" they are talking about the semi-auto Colt AR-15s and their copies. Key word in that sentence is "copies". No where in Wikipedia to we link to the copies first. When you go to the Swiss Army knife describes the knives that are made by Victorinox AG and Wenger SA. It doesn't even mention the 100s of millions if not billions of copies that have been made by other manufactures. When you search of Corvette it goes to the Corvette (warship) not Chevrolet Corvette. This discussion is waste of time and is going nowhere.--RAF910 (talk) 19:16, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
– I have more thoughts on this but there's a lot to digest above, so I'm stopping here and taking a break. wbm1058 (talk) 22:57, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Google Ngrams (click Search lots of books to see the graph) show that the term "modern sporting rifle" hasn't gained much traction, unless it's really taken off in the last ten years. More use found in 1910 than 2008. This page of search results shows several more generic uses of the term that predate the 1956 ArmaLite AR-15. It's also interesting to note that the word "assault" follows "AR-15" more frequently than either "semi-automatic" or "automatic". The NSSF page on modern sporting rifles calls them both "AR-15-platform rifles" and "AR-15-style rifles". Either of these might be better titles for the Modern sporting rifle article. They are more POV-neutral, as opposed to "assault" and "sporting" which lean in opposite directions from center. Really they can be either "assault" or "sporting" rifles, depending on how they're used (e.g., shooting from a hotel-room window or on a shooting range). – wbm1058 (talk) 12:38, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There are currently just over 350 links to AR-15 – these should be assessed to confirm whether they are hitting the right topic. – wbm1058 (talk) 12:59, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • So I rarely rely on the frequency of use results when the difference is a technical one. Take the use of "assault". That term is used mostly by those who don't understand the topic or have an agenda. An actual assault rifle has select fire capabilities. The AR-15 is semi-automatic only. Firearms that are capable of automatic fire are highly regulated and no legal ones have been used in a crime in decades. Yet the term becomes over-used by a media that is making a point and has no interest in the correctness of what they're saying, and soon the number of uses piles up, leading where we are, pushing an incorrect idea. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:29, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I see it, the problem is simple, we are trying to invent an acceptable term for "generic AR-15 type rifles", so that we can have redirect to that page in order to discuss "whatever". When it is NOT necessary in the first place. Where else on Wiki do we invent a generic name for a commercial product, so that we can talk about that product on a separate page? The COLT AR-15 page effectively describes what an AR-15 is. It very clearly states that other manufactures make AR-15 copies. AR-15 type rifles made by other major manufactures have they own dedicated Wiki pages. As for the "Modern Sporting Rifle" page, it was created to define that specific term. Not as a handy redirect for AR-15 type rifles. The 350 links to AR-15 are irrelevant and self correcting (even if they are trying to link to the "ArmaLite AR-15" or the "AR-15 (disambiguation)" pages. They can click on the hatnote at the top of the Colt AR-15 page). There comes a point where you have to recognize that your looking for a solution to a non-existent problem. --RAF910 (talk) 16:23, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, wikt:assault has several meanings, I note the distinctions between assault weapon (which usually includes semi-automatic firearms), assault gun and assault rifle. I'm not advocating putting that word in the title of Modern sporting rifle. This page is for discussing disambiguation, and whether there is a primary topic for the term AR-15. I'm OK with the redirect to Colt AR-15, given the edits made so far to clear up confusion and direct people to the right topics. The title of Modern sporting rifle would best be discussed on Talk:Modern sporting rifle. There hasn't been much discussion on that page. But, given what seems to be such limited usage, one could argue that that is the "invented term". It's not hard to find websites that use "AR-15" in a generic sense, these sites aren't using the term "Modern sporting rifle" which brings into question how common the usage is. You could perhaps argue that MSR is the "official" term, but Wikipedia generally prefers common usage over official names. When it comes to generic trademarks, Zamboni machine always comes to my mind. That redirects to ice resurfacer rather than a specific product of the Zamboni Company. I wish we had a better generic term for these rifles, but I guess we just have to work with what we have. wbm1058 (talk) 00:47, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It has "multiple meanings" solely because people pushing gun control agendas fabricated those meanings. It was created in the past few decades only to use for gun control measures. I'm sorry that you and the general public (including Wikipedia editors) have been sucked into that sort of thinking (sort of like how the term "homophobia" has been misappropriated from being an actual phobia to merely anyone who doesn't agree with a every legal change). As for your trademark example, I've already given examples of how it doesn't work that way. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:18, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect of AR-15 to AR-15 style rifle[edit]

I've updated the redirect to AR-15 style rifle as a generic term, vs a specific manufacturer's product: diff. Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:38, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have created an RFD for some of these redirects at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 February 24#AR-15, with further background information listed there. Dekimasuよ! 21:30, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
FYI I have closed the RfD. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 22:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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